Biking in Boston

[ritchiew]

I still see a lot of aggressive or bad behavior among cyclists in Boston. A few from just yesterday:

• Cyclist riding aggressively through pedestrians inside the State Orange Line Station (yes, in the station!).
• 2 cyclists riding the wrong way in the bike lanes on Columbus Avenue. (I was almost hit because I foolishly looked for cyclists coming from the correct direction.)
• 4 Blue Bikers (I don't really consider the "turista" types cyclists) riding across sidewalk areas along Charles Street South, aggressively yelling at pedestrians to make way.

All over the course of about 1 hour, late afternoon yesterday.

Well, I said I'd be happy to call out jackass bikers, so, my god, what fucking jackasses. Glad you didn't get hurt.

The Blue Bikers are surprising. I was actually going to say the Blue Bikes might be a part of the culture shift, because they're letting a lot of newer, slower, more cautious people ride bikes, from what I've seen. They're the last people I would have guessed would riding on the sidewalk, yelling at people.

There's also absolutely a different sample size situation neighborhood to neighborhood (and city-to-city). Areas that have worse bicycle infrastructure will disincentivize a lot of people with a low risk tolerance, and the remaining people to choose to bike are going to likely be people with more aggressive riding behavior and a higher risk tolerance.

Yeah, that makes sense, and that could absolutely explain why I don't see as many problems as other people here. I lived, worked, and biked in Boston for years but I'm living in Cambridge now. I still regularly bike into Boston, but I might be getting used to my more bike-friendly enclave.

 

[Longfellow]

This is 100% backed by the data, that cyclists broadly are more likely to be young males, a demographic highly associated with willingness to take risk and aggressive behavior.

I almost was hit last night on Cambridge st & Warren st, which seems to be quoted as one of the more dangerous intersections. For some reason I couldn’t get myself to care about it, just kept on going. So, can confirm

 

[KCasiglio]

The Blue Bikers are surprising. I was actually going to say the Blue Bikes might be a part of the culture shift, because they're letting a lot of newer, slower, more cautious people ride bikes, from what I've seen. They're the last people I would have guessed would riding on the sidewalk, yelling at people.

I don't have anything to back this up, but I think your assumption is by and large correct. I think the majority of BB riders are newer, slower, and more cautious. That being said I think that on a per mile ridden basis that, if not a majority, a disproportionate share of bluebike riders come from a higher mileage, higher speed, higher risk group. As in, the median rider per trip and the median rider per mile may be very different people.

To be very clear, this is all hypothesis and I do not have access to any BlueBike data that's informed this opinion.

 

[KCasiglio]

This is largely my experience, too. To a certain extent, this conversation reminds me of the "I saw a bike run a red light!" discourse that pops up so often on social media. I realize the point being made is different, and explicitly not being done in an anti-bike fashion here in this thread. But it nevertheless seems to focus on the unusual or outlier behaviors. Yes, let's clean it up, but really, it doesn't happen much.

Implementing "Idaho" laws, where a red light = a stop sign to cyclists and a stop sign = a yield to cyclists combined with more rigid enforcement seems like a common sense compromise here. I run roll through stop signs all the time on my bike...because at a low speed I can clearly see there is no one for 100m in either direction. But if there IS someone coming and I fail to yield the proper right of way...well then yeah, I'm at fault and it should be treated as such. I think if more sensible traffic controls were implemented and communicated to the cycling community we'd see more compliance.

 

[FK4]

I’m seeing the usual whataboutism and blaming driving incentivization on here as usual. Guys, is it so hard to realize some bikers are assholes? We don’t need to blame autocentric policy for every idiot who blasts thru parks on his bike.

Furthermore, since Europe was mentioned, as I’ve said so many times here before, in Europe people FOLLOW THE RULES. That goes for bikes, cars and pedestrians as well. I know as always happens when I say this someone will come out of the woodwork and argue it’s no different over there than here. It’s night and day. Just returned from two weeks in Spain and Portugal this time and drove all over and had no issues. Walking in cities—no issues. Didn’t see anyone hurling themselves into traffic when it said don’t walk. Didn’t see anyone walking in bike lanes. Didn’t see cars breaking the speed limit in the downtowns of any of the five cities I visited. Not saying Europe is perfect but every time I go, the fact that people movement WORKS because it’s not treated as a free for all is so striking. In America it’s everyone out for themselves and it shows in the aggressive, domineering and inconsiderate behavior shown by walkers, bikers and drivers alike. This is a cultural problem, it goes a lot deeper than autocentric policy (which is a downstream effect of our individualism / capitalism and animosity toward any sort of policy or behavior that makes sense on a community level).

 

[JeffDowntown]

I’m seeing the usual whataboutism and blaming driving incentivization on here as usual. Guys, is it so hard to realize some bikers are assholes? We don’t need to blame autocentric policy for every idiot who blasts thru parks on his bike.

Furthermore, since Europe was mentioned, as I’ve said so many times here before, in Europe people FOLLOW THE RULES. That goes for bikes, cars and pedestrians as well. I know as always happens when I say this someone will come out of the woodwork and argue it’s no different over there than here. It’s night and day. Just returned from two weeks in Spain and Portugal this time and drove all over and had no issues. Walking in cities—no issues. Didn’t see anyone hurling themselves into traffic when it said don’t walk. Didn’t see anyone walking in bike lanes. Didn’t see cars breaking the speed limit in the downtowns of any of the five cities I visited. Not saying Europe is perfect but every time I go, the fact that people movement WORKS because it’s not treated as a free for all is so striking. In America it’s everyone out for themselves and it shows in the aggressive, domineering and inconsiderate behavior shown by walkers, bikers and drivers alike. This is a cultural problem, it goes a lot deeper than autocentric policy (which is a downstream effect of our individualism / capitalism and animosity toward any sort of policy or behavior that makes sense on a community level).

Totally on point -- rugged individualism virtually always wins out in America over collective considerations. That is a big part of why most of the world see Americans as assholes -- we are.

 

[bigpicture7]

Guys, is it so hard to realize some bikers are assholes? We don’t need to blame autocentric policy for every idiot who blasts thru parks on his bike...

As I've shared on here in the past, my wife and I live mostly car-free and walk/bike/transit most places. But the two of us are quite different, despite having similar commutes, in that I bike only occasionally (just honestly still not super comfortable with urban riding) whereas she is super-urban-cyclist-etraordinaire. As such there have been many, many spirited debates (mostly friendly) in our household about cycling policy / who's-at-fault-for-what / etc etc that have settled into mutually satisfying agreement that I will share:

- She has managed to convince me that lax cycling rules generally pose minimal danger to others; most commuter cyclists crave speed and yet do try reasonably hard not to hit people; she has also reinforced that most avid/speedy cyclists really want peds to ignore them because the worst thing is when a ped is trying to do evasive maneuvers -- the cyclist is comparably so much more maneuverable that it's best if they just steer around all the obstacles and "take responsibility" for not hitting stuff, which, ridiculous as it may sound, is actually mostly safe because cyclists are less likely than both peds and drivers to have their face in their phone and actually be paying attention to what they're doing.
- I have managed to convince her, only after agreeing that peds are indeed highly unlikely to die from cyclists, that when cyclists do what she describes above, I (and peds like me) am likely to $h!t my pants. And that a society where pedestrians are $h!itting their pants constantly is not ideal. And so therefore we should have a modicum of cycling safety rules, not because of this-or-that-statistic, but because minimizing innocent pedestrians' pants-$hiting is just the right thing to do.

We are very much at peace with this outcome of this debate.

 

[TheRatmeister]

in Europe people FOLLOW THE RULES. That goes for bikes, cars and pedestrians as well.

I can tell you this is just not true (everywhere). One particular intersection on my commute I frequently see cyclists go clear through a red light, mopeds often use the bike lanes when there are signs explicitly saying they're not allowed to, cyclists weave through pedestrian squares like it's nothing, people cycle while texting, cycle with no hands, and having just gotten back from Lisbon myself I saw plenty of jaywalking, same in Italy and Paris is just as 'bad' as Boston or New York in this regard.

You are right that cars generally follow the rules, speed limits are definitely a hard limit here, not a soft recommendation, and crosswalks are usually respected (By cars). Not always of course, again in Lisbon cars seemed a lot less willing to stop at crosswalks than in NL despite there being no difference in the laws AFAIK. And the even bigger point that I try and combat whenever I see it: EUROPE IS NOT MONOLITHIC. Traffic norms in Madrid are not the same in London, which are not the same as in Utrecht, Berlin, Milan, or Krakow. Yes, there are some places in Europe that are as strict with the rules as Japan, for example. But there are also plenty of places where pedestrians and cyclists in particular play just as fast and loose with the rules as in New York or Boston.

 

[sneijder]

Implementing "Idaho" laws, where a red light = a stop sign to cyclists and a stop sign = a yield to cyclists combined with more rigid enforcement seems like a common sense compromise here. I run roll through stop signs all the time on my bike...because at a low speed I can clearly see there is no one for 100m in either direction. But if there IS someone coming and I fail to yield the proper right of way...well then yeah, I'm at fault and it should be treated as such. I think if more sensible traffic controls were implemented and communicated to the cycling community we'd see more compliance.

I mean, to be fair, no cars stop at stop signs either..not a single one.

 

[KCasiglio]

I’m seeing the usual whataboutism and blaming driving incentivization on here as usual. Guys, is it so hard to realize some bikers are assholes? We don’t need to blame autocentric policy for every idiot who blasts thru parks on his bike.

Where are you seeing this whatabouism and blaming driving? The past page/24 hours has been a pretty consistent/rational acknowledgement of aggressive, anti-social cycling that's detrimental to "the cause" along with statements that more enforcement is part of the solution. Seems like you're quite frankly not reading the thread.

 

[FK4]

I can tell you this is just not true (everywhere). One particular intersection on my commute I frequently see cyclists go clear through a red light, mopeds often use the bike lanes when there are signs explicitly saying they're not allowed to, cyclists weave through pedestrian squares like it's nothing, people cycle while texting, cycle with no hands, and having just gotten back from Lisbon myself I saw plenty of jaywalking, same in Italy and Paris is just as 'bad' as Boston or New York in this regard.

You are right that cars generally follow the rules, speed limits are definitely a hard limit here, not a soft recommendation, and crosswalks are usually respected (By cars). Not always of course, again in Lisbon cars seemed a lot less willing to stop at crosswalks than in NL despite there being no difference in the laws AFAIK. And the even bigger point that I try and combat whenever I see it: EUROPE IS NOT MONOLITHIC. Traffic norms in Madrid are not the same in London, which are not the same as in Utrecht, Berlin, Milan, or Krakow. Yes, there are some places in Europe that are as strict with the rules as Japan, for example. But there are also plenty of places where pedestrians and cyclists in particular play just as fast and loose with the rules as in New York or Boston.

I recognize that "Europe" is not monolithic. However, I take issue with this response as it ignores the fact that there very real cultural differences between "Europe" and "America" and cultural differences do very much impact both transportation policy as well as personal behavior of pedestrians and drivers. There is a wealth of data to support this. The fact that Western European democracies have a far more robust social safety net than the USA speaks volumes about the differences in individualism here vs there. More money is invested in public infrastructure, more money is spent on national healthcare, and more money is invested in public works projects. All of this indicates a higher recognition of the community over the value of the individual. Do I actually need to send references to back up the fact that there are broad generalizations that are accurate in terms of defining differences in the USA vs Europe? And it's quite frankly absurd to suggest that things are similar to the way they are in Boston. People who visit here are always blown away at pedestrian behavior in this city. Im not talking about j-walking, per se. People just walk into the street and expect cars to stop, and it's emblematic of overall cultural behavior here. If you did that in NYC, you'd get mowed down, which is why you tend to actually see people waiting for the light in NYC in a way that here, you do not. America is chaos, disorganization, and freedom at expense of everything else. It's why people move here, and it's both what's great and also horrible about this country. This isn't about nitpicking over whether some bikers still run red lights or every single car stops for pedestrians, but an overall impression of the social milieu revealed in the average urban experience of a European city versus an American one.

And certainly, while better policy would lead to better safety and perhaps by encouraging more people to walk and bike and less to drive you would eventually lead to a cultural absorption of the importance of driving alternatives, my point is there are deeper issues. The bad policy wrt cars here is reflective of a deeper cultural attitude, that won't simply go away by changing policy. Dont get me wrong, we need to change policy, and policy can shift behavior and beliefs over time and perhaps eventually start to alter these deeper issues as well.

 

[as02143]

I recognize that "Europe" is not monolithic.

Your response indicates that you do talk about Europe as monolithic.

Italy, Hungary, and soon the Netherlands are now making their far-right turns, campaigning to raise speed limits, Trumpify their immigration system, and take a hard look at their urban transportation policy.

Your anecdotes from vacation in Spain and Portugal aren't going to be reflective of daily life for a resident there. Those two countries do love video enforcement, but, I can tell you from my friends that live there speeding and general breaking of laws there, while harshly punished, aren't uncommon either. It's often just too congested or slow for cars to cause much damage in crashes. That being said, what goes on in Iberia isn't going to reflect what goes on in Anglia, Gaulia, Italia, or Helvetica. Tis but just a sample of the various ways that Western Europe goes about their day.

I don't think I've ever seen someone yell at a pedestrian, but you're right that I also rarely see cyclists stop at zebra crossings. Cars (almost) always stop though, for what it's worth.

Had the tour guide translate what an Amsterdammer yelled at me when I apparently crossed in their way at a zebra crossing: "get cancer".

Cars are a bit better than cyclists at yeilding, but, I think it might actually be because of the anarchy of the cyclists that make drivers just a bit more cautious of anyone on foot or bike

 

[TheRatmeister]

Had the tour guide translate what an Amsterdammer yelled at me when I apparently crossed in their way at a zebra crossing: "get cancer".

Ah, I've barely been to Amsterdam (And frankly I don't mind keeping it that way) so that makes sense. I'm speaking mostly from the Groningen perspective.

 

[FK4]

Your response indicates that you do talk about Europe as monolithic.

Italy, Hungary, and soon the Netherlands are now making their far-right turns, campaigning to raise speed limits, Trumpify their immigration system, and take a hard look at their urban transportation policy.

Your anecdotes from vacation in Spain and Portugal aren't going to be reflective of daily life for a resident there. Those two countries do love video enforcement, but, I can tell you from my friends that live there speeding and general breaking of laws there, while harshly punished, aren't uncommon either. It's often just too congested or slow for cars to cause much damage in crashes. That being said, what goes on in Iberia isn't going to reflect what goes on in Anglia, Gaulia, Italia, or Helvetica. Tis but just a sample of the various ways that Western Europe goes about their day.

Had the tour guide translate what an Amsterdammer yelled at me when I apparently crossed in their way at a zebra crossing: "get cancer".

Cars are a bit better than cyclists at yeilding, but, I think it might actually be because of the anarchy of the cyclists that make drivers just a bit more cautious of anyone on foot or bike

OK sure, you're right, there are no national or regional level differences or conclusions that can be drawn, everyone is the same everywhere, thank you very much for your contribution.

 

[as02143]

Ah, I've barely been to Amsterdam (And frankly I don't mind keeping it that way) so that makes sense. I'm speaking mostly from the Groningen perspective.

yeah - like I mentioned - i think it's a function of being in a place where people are most concerned about "their time" being "money." A university town in Europe is going to have a larger contingent of people who are not under the capitalist pressure to produce. Meanwhile, places like here (or a globally-connected economic hub like Amsterdam), there's a lot more of a working-age contingent who are under that specific capitalist pressure. It makes a lot of urban life downright miserable not just the biking.

 

[TheRatmeister]

Oh, and just a fun stat, based on these numbers (1), (2), there are around twice as many daily bicycle trips made in Groningen, a city of around 200k, than in the Boston Metro Area with roughly 4.5 million residents. That's what happens when cycle mode share is >60%.

 

[Koopzilla24]

Furthermore, since Europe was mentioned, as I’ve said so many times here before, in Europe people FOLLOW THE RULES. That goes for bikes, cars and pedestrians as well. I know as always happens when I say this someone will come out of the woodwork and argue it’s no different over there than here. It’s night and day.

I think a solid contributor to the general trend of more traffic light adherence is that European cities tend to actually have prevalent 21st century traffic signaling. Here our ancient lights are almost entirely on basic timers even though you can see the detection loop in the approach lanes in a lot of places. Whether you're on foot, on a bike, or in a car, you're less likely to sit on a red while traffic has cleared on the cross street. The mentality of "it'll turn green in a moment anyway" deters bikes running red, pedestrians running across on a Don't Walk, and cars speeding up to beat the red. This combined with more roundabouts on these kind of uneven traffic intersections and safer bike infra so that an Idaho stop or running the red to get out ahead of car traffic isn't the much safer option would make the behavior naturally lessen.

An example of the opposite and what not to do is the entirety of Rt9 through Brookline Village. I never follow the bike signals through there because they make absolutely no sense leaving no movement through the intersection for long periods and the car traffic gets really clogged up due to terrible signaling. Walnut St and Pear St have timers way beyond any traffic levels they see because they combine the turn movements with the long pedestrian crossing for a lower pedestrian volume since it's hell to cross. If there were intelligent signals they could have much shorter Walnut greens and a dedicated pedx crossing cycle when a small group amasses and more strategically ensure people spend less time waiting for nothing like they do under current conditions.

 

[KCasiglio]

This past Friday an E-cargo bike rental company launched in Boston-Cambridge-Somerville:
https://www.ridecargob.com/campaign...8hGpz-aVg9uAChUIrH0yep0502VGUtVLukQeno0uFcMDk

While rooting for them, I’m skeptical unless they can bring down the costs. Can’t imagine many are going to pay more than they would for a U-Haul van.

 

[millerm277]

I think a solid contributor to the general trend of more traffic light adherence is that European cities tend to actually have prevalent 21st century traffic signaling. Here our ancient lights are almost entirely on basic timers even though you can see the detection loop in the approach lanes in a lot of places.

On a somewhat related note: Why is this?

I travel around quite a bit and the % of lights that have some kind of intelligent detection + reaction to conditions seems to be far higher basically everywhere else (including other "old" US metro areas) than around here. Something MA has been particularly poor at providing funding for in some way?

Plenty of Boston-area lights don't even seem to have any sort of sensible programming on their timers (or are so ancient that they can't?), either - with things like long signal phases even in the middle of the night.

 

[BOS2BON]

On a somewhat related note: Why is this?

I travel around quite a bit and the % of lights that have some kind of intelligent detection + reaction to conditions seems to be far higher basically everywhere else (including other "old" US metro areas) than around here. Something MA has been particularly poor at providing funding for in some way?

Plenty of Boston-area lights don't even seem to have any sort of sensible programming on their timers (or are so ancient that they can't?), either - with things like long signal phases even in the middle of the night.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more seriously, touching any of the signal equipment will most likely trigger a requirement to bring everything up to code with ADA/PROWAG. That's just my guess, I really don't have a good sense of how our signals compare to other cities in the US.