Is it time for a new Portland arena?

[mainejeff]

I know that this has been talked about a lot but I'm watching cities like Manchester & Providence host major collegiate sporting events like basketball and hockey regionals. There is no reason that Portland shouldn't be hosting events like this with the number of hotel rooms located on the peninsula now and the Jetport having expanding airline service and capacity. New arena needs 10K seats and amenities. The Civic Center is a dog....knock it down and redevelop that plot of valuable land.

 

[Dr. StrangeHat]

Agreed. The civic center is no longer a viable facility.

Two challenges:

(1) Cost. Unless a entity comes along with a pile of cash to make it happen (you know, like the Libra Foundation did and Portland rejected), there's no way it happens as a government-funded venture.
(2) Location. Top of the Old Port parking lot is the obvious winner from a location perspective, but based on what I've read and heard over the years, the owners of that lot love that it's a cheap cash cow. So, if that spot is not available, where do you put it? Portland Square parking lots?

 

[BronsonShore]

I know that this has been talked about a lot but I'm watching cities like Manchester & Providence host major collegiate sporting events like basketball and hockey regionals. There is no reason that Portland shouldn't be hosting events like this with the number of hotel rooms located on the peninsula now and the Jetport having expanding airline service and capacity. New arena needs 10K seats and amenities. The Civic Center is a dog....knock it down and redevelop that plot of valuable land.

I don't think the arena is what's keeping Portland from hosting things like the NCAA tournament, it's Portland's size that's the problem. Dayton is the smallest city hosting the tournament this year, and it's a much bigger city than Portland, in addition to being home to an established D1 program with a passionate fanbase. I'm betting no city as small as Portland has hosted the NCAA tournament in a looooong time.

 

[TC_zoid]

I don't think the arena is what's keeping Portland from hosting things like the NCAA tournament, it's Portland's size that's the problem. Dayton is the smallest city hosting the tournament this year, and it's a much bigger city than Portland, in addition to being home to an established D1 program with a passionate fanbase. I'm betting no city as small as Portland has hosted the NCAA tournament in a looooong time.

It's not about city proper, but the metro area. If so, that means El Paso, Texas is bigger than Boston in population, and MUCH bigger than Miami--uh-uh. Dayton's metro is a bit over 800,000, and Portland's is nearing 600,000. But Dayton can draw from Columbus, Indy, and Cincinatti as those cities are not that far away. Boston has 5 million in its metro, and the drive from Boston to Portland is not much, really. And Portland is about 5 hours from NYC, the biggest metropolis in the country. That's some decent draw potential. But Cross Insurance Arena has problems. In Indianapolis, they had an out-of-date arena (about 20 years old) and fixed it with a major remodel ($360 million). To fix CIA would be just a bit over $100 million, I'm guessing, and you can't beat the location: parking, hotels, the Old Port. CIA would have to raise the roof for another deck and knock out some first level cement to create some standing bars. In addition, a club level with comfy seating and bars and buffet offerings. It's significantly about the food and drink experience today. Many fans on club levels sit in couches and watch the games on big monitors, thus ignoring the direct line of sight to the action. Hey, I visit these places as part of my job. It has changed. I remember when Fenway had a pissing trough (is that still there?). The northwest roof corner of the building could be enclosed and made into a large 3 level bar with a massive screen and still some sightlines to the action. This way, it can be used as a cool sports bar when there aren't events. (Circa's sportsbook room in Vegas has a massive 4 story screen that draws in gamblers and drinkers 24/7.) Allow sports gaming in here and viola, bigger profits. They are doing that now at Encore. Why does Maine let the money go over the boarder so easily? Oxford Casino isn't a real gaming experience--laughable, really. Creativity to address the needs of today can solve the problem. Building a bigger arena off peninsula would cost at least $250 million, and then a new problem would arise in that there is nothing really around for before and after the game. Although Rock Row and its slow but somewhat steady growth could be an option. But the existing CIA location is best because fans have the option of not immediately driving home after the game--most or many can head to the Old Port for a nightcap (like we do at Fenway and TD Garden).

 

[PWMFlyer]

Portland was supposed to host a NCAA regional tournament several years ago. First you need a Host school and money. UMaine was the host, but not the money needed to host. Next you need hotel rooms. At the time of the bid, Portland did not meet that. NCAA loves big markets, for example. Worcester and Manchester have hosted hockey regionals and just like the Olympics, they ran in the red. The arenas were barely full. So, a 10K+ arena is great, but when its empty, it makes no sense. Endowment!!!!! UMaine has the lowest paid coaches compared to other schools. So, to be the host, you must pony up, which UMaine falls short on. So, Boston will continue to host tournaments with BU, BC, Northeastern, MIT, Harvard as being the poster children of the NCAA. There was talk about UMaine having a breakout tournament or Beanpot style tournament, but the season ticket holders didn't like that because they would have to come to Portland from Bangor, so it never happened. I have worked at the CCCC for over 20+ years in ops. its hosted more events than people can think. The arena does better compared to other venues. SNHU arena is not doing that well with limited events-aka lots of dark nights. CIC in Bangor is struggling and with UMaine BBall at the campus, that's more dark nights. DCU in Worcester is barely surviving with ECHL and football and the occasional concert. There bread and butter are in conventions.

 

[markhb]

I strongly doubt that anyone involved in funding UMaine, whether the Legislature or the boosters, would be interested in ponying up to host an event in Portland. The anti-Portland sentiment in the rest of the state remains strong.

And then the question becomes, what does Portland offer that Boston doesn't? I doubt the ECHL Mariners are filling the CIA now, and it has never had another sport survive there for long. Even if you spent 9 digits on a renovation to make it hold > 10000 people, are there that many shows / events that have a firm bottom cutoff at 5 digits of seating for indoor? (Outdoor, I believe, has become its own thing, which is why I have hope for the semi-outdoor event hall planned for Rock Row.) So you have that many more empty seats for most events.

Honestly, I still think the thing the Civic Center lacks most is an attached convention center that would provide breakout rooms to compliment the main arena. Maybe on the Portland Square / Brian Boru area.

 

[TC_zoid]

Portland could easily host a big national tournament in the month of March with all its available hotel rooms and award-winning restaurants. But need a much better arena. Getting here from anywhere is easy with Logan 90 minutes away. And the Jetport, it's the little engine that could. I remember a few years back when CIA hosted a divisional round for the NCAA women's. I went to the UMaine game. Outside, it was maybe ten degrees with brisk winds. Felt like Jan. or February.

 

[Archarte]

I've worked in arena's most of my life and I agree with the earlier point that the Civic Center is a Dog. Additionally, I have witnessed several other posts previously eluding to the need for a proper convention center space as well which I agree with. Adding an event tax to the local glut of hotel rooms is a very common way of raising much of the cash needed to secure bonds for new development but you must create a significant increase in year round tourist visits to make the tax work. Building a new 10K seat arena with expanded amenities which includes a 40K+ Square Foot Convention floor could help increase tourism as well as visitation from the suburbs to increase year round business, hotel stays and restaurant visits, which helps create more jobs and more opportunity in the city. I proposed this idea previously in another thread but it is obviously more relevant here so this is a simple example of what could be if the realignment of the Franklyn St were to move forward. This combined Arena and Convention Center would easily fit between Congress St and Cumberland Ave at Franklin. With the block to the west of this sight already moving forward with new development, this could be a perfect fit at the gateway to the city and still directly adjacent to the Old Port...

Ground Level.

Main Concourse Level.

Upper Concourse Level.

 

[TC_zoid]

There is virtually no parking with this proposal. The current location has two parking garages mere steps away. In addition, the Holiday Inn provides next door lodging, parking, and its own large convention-like space inside. The proposal is also missing a club level or areas (couches and bar tops) with bars and seating that have openings (line of sight) to the live action. Today, fans do not want to go back into the bowels of a facility to experience food and drink. Optimal food and drink offerings are perhaps equal in popularity to the event itself. Examine some of the new arenas and stadium layouts on this idea, especially Allegiant in Vegas and SoFi in LA.

 

[Lrfox]

Portland was supposed to host a NCAA regional tournament several years ago. First you need a Host school and money. UMaine was the host, but not the money needed to host. Next you need hotel rooms. At the time of the bid, Portland did not meet that. NCAA loves big markets, for example. Worcester and Manchester have hosted hockey regionals and just like the Olympics, they ran in the red. The arenas were barely full. So, a 10K+ arena is great, but when its empty, it makes no sense. Endowment!!!!! UMaine has the lowest paid coaches compared to other schools. So, to be the host, you must pony up, which UMaine falls short on. So, Boston will continue to host tournaments with BU, BC, Northeastern, MIT, Harvard as being the poster children of the NCAA. There was talk about UMaine having a breakout tournament or Beanpot style tournament, but the season ticket holders didn't like that because they would have to come to Portland from Bangor, so it never happened. I have worked at the CCCC for over 20+ years in ops. its hosted more events than people can think. The arena does better compared to other venues. SNHU arena is not doing that well with limited events-aka lots of dark nights. CIC in Bangor is struggling and with UMaine BBall at the campus, that's more dark nights. DCU in Worcester is barely surviving with ECHL and football and the occasional concert. There bread and butter are in conventions.

Did they actually submit a bid?

Like you said, a 10k arena is great (and I believe the minimum the NCAA will allow). But typically the biggest part of the deal is a D1 host school sponsoring the tournament. It’s PC in Providence. If you watch the games, you can see “hosted by” and the school logo on the court.

There are other criteria too. Specifically ample hotel rooms within close proximity (Portland probably checks that box), frequent enough scheduled air service (this may be tricky), and space for tournament related events (conference facilities press sessions, large restaurant/bars for host parties, etc).

With or without a 10k arena, I can’t see Portland (or Manchester) hosting the NCAA basketball tournament. Providence is even borderline (smallest arena in the tournament this year, leveraging Logan and Amtrak for transit options to supplement the small local airport, etc), but the AMP is PC’s home arena and PC has a huge endowment and one of the 25 most well funded basketball programs in the country. So that puts them over the edge. I’m not sure Portland could leverage Logan airport or non-Acela/NEC Amtrak. And more importantly, I doubt UMaine would be on board with funding a tournament 130 miles away. Those sponsorships are what makes or breaks it (and why places like Dayton and Greenville can host in spite of their size).

 

[Portlander]

Well said Lrfox and by the time (decade) Portland would be able to pull off a new 10K seat arena the minimum requirements to host an NCAA basketball tournament will probably be increased to 14K for the first round. Nice work with your design efforts Archarte and that long vacant parcel would work well but the senior citizens that reside in Franklin Towers would complain about the noise affecting their 9PM bedtime routine.

 

[TC_zoid]

Well said Lrfox and by the time (decade) Portland would be able to pull off a new 10K seat arena the minimum requirements to host an NCAA basketball tournament will probably be increased to 14K for the first round. Nice work with your design efforts Archarte and that long vacant parcel would work well but the senior citizens that reside in Franklin Towers would complain about the noise affecting their 9PM bedtime routine.

That vacant parcel is not the better idea (read my previous argument) for an arena with Franklin Arterial in the design stage to become a more intimate neighborhood encompassing Lincoln Park. It would be antithetical, if so. Generally, large arenas in cities that are in-between their events become a massive cement and glass mass of inactivity or wall stopping connectivity. With a new arena, or for this location, the result would then be a desperate search for parking, buses, semis, etc., picking up and dropping off near housing, and people walking to or from which hotel? (The Press Hotel is too small and upscale to contribute, except for maybe the acts). The current CIA location seems to handle all of this, or sufficiently. Either build it out in an area with room to spread out to connect to existing and new activity (Rock Row or The Downs) or use some design skill to upgrade the existing one. Gainbridge Fieldhouse (18,000) in Indianapolis did it--a massive renovation.

 

[Lrfox]

Well said Lrfox and by the time (decade) Portland would be able to pull off a new 10K seat arena the minimum requirements to host an NCAA basketball tournament will probably be increased to 14K for the first round. Nice work with your design efforts Archarte and that long vacant parcel would work well but the senior citizens that reside in Franklin Towers would complain about the noise affecting their 9PM bedtime routine.

Haha true. I think Portland could swing a 10k arena now. The catchment area is greater than the metro number indicates, and it would probably put it in a different tier in terms of the types of shows/entertainment it could draw. But not having a D1 school in the immediate area hurts on the college sports tournament front. Those will probably go to places with D1 teams in town (or close by).

 

[Portlander]

Without question I feel that greater Portland could easily support a larger arena. My "decade" notation was based on how long I think it would take to pull a venture like this off knowing that the current venue was renovated 10 years ago with taxpayer money and the thrifty locals will want a return on Cumberland County's $30M investment. It will take a years of planning, huge investment from a wealthy benefactor or corporation along with a local option sales tax to move forward with a shiny new building in my opinion.

In addition, I have been told by professionals much smarter than myself that the current parcel of land that the Cross sits on is not conducive to the footprint required for a larger arena. Convincing the regional population that demolishing an older but renovated and functional arena to put up a new one for a few more concerts and events a year would take a genius marketing approach. Arenas and convention centers are low on the list of priorities for cities across the country due to the amount of time they sit empty and the astronomical costs unless you can land an NHL or NBA team which are only reserved for the big towns.

 

[PWMFlyer]

Is there any consideration for an arena at Thompsons Point? Will the new owner of the Celtics ask for a new arena to play in or look to build? We could host the women's ncaa regional

 

[Portlander]

Great question but too many infrastructure, parking and emergency access issues for it to be feasible. Plus the remaining parcels are spoken for with the planned addition of residential units and a hotel at last check. There is probably no one on the planet that would love to see a new 10K plus seat arena in Portland more than me but I feel it is a long shot for it to materialize in the next ten years and it probably won't happen at the current location. That said, if the renovations never happened back in 2014 and the arena was barely hanging on today and costing the county a fortune to maintain I do think the odds would be increased for a new venue but in another location with the current building possibly being repurposed as a convention center.

As far as the Celtics, they are content with their Maine franchise playing at the Expo in front of 3100 fans in an intimate environment. The former GM of the Maine Celtics told me a few years ago that the Cross Arena was too big for their needs and the team would not be able to sell the 7,000 seats available for basketball and the few times they played there it was half empty and lacked the vibe and excitement of the Expo. In the NBA G League, there are actually 5 venues that have a smaller capacity than the Exposition Building and the average attendance for all G League games is only around 1700 with the Celtics averaging 2100 which is mid pack when compared to all of the teams.

 

[markhb]

Is there any consideration for an arena at Thompsons Point? Will the new owner of the Celtics ask for a new arena to play in or look to build? We could host the women's ncaa regional

Originally, the Thompson's Point development did include a dedicated arena for the Red Claws; it wouldn't have been much larger than the Expo but it would have been a modern building. Unfortunately, that went by the wayside when the project was sold years ago

 

[DanielPWM19]

That vacant parcel is not the better idea (read my previous argument) for an arena with Franklin Arterial in the design stage to become a more intimate neighborhood encompassing Lincoln Park. It would be antithetical, if so. Generally, large arenas in cities that are in-between their events become a massive cement and glass mass of inactivity or wall stopping connectivity. With a new arena, or for this location, the result would then be a desperate search for parking, buses, semis, etc., picking up and dropping off near housing, and people walking to or from which hotel? (The Press Hotel is too small and upscale to contribute, except for maybe the acts). The current CIA location seems to handle all of this, or sufficiently. Either build it out in an area with room to spread out to connect to existing and new activity (Rock Row or The Downs) or use some design skill to upgrade the existing one. Gainbridge Fieldhouse (18,000) in Indianapolis did it--a massive renovation.

I think this is a good argument that I hadn't considered. Maybe "Top of the Old Port" isn't the best place for a new City Arena.

Perhaps if the Maine Health building and the aging parking garage were removed ... then demolish the Civic Center - something more functional could be built.

A new Garage could replace the old one - perhaps with a tall hotel on top of the garage? The lot on Free Street behind the old Margaritas could host a tall hotel tower

The Holiday Inn parking garage could be replaced with a new garage with a taller hotel on top.

AND THEN ... the Portland Square Lots could be leveraged for quite a bit for hotels, convention space, offices.

 

[DanielPWM19]

Please enjoy my crappy rendition of development markups

 

[TC_zoid]

I think this is a good argument that I hadn't considered. Maybe "Top of the Old Port" isn't the best place for a new City Arena.

Perhaps if the Maine Health building and the aging parking garage were removed ... then demolish the Civic Center - something more functional could be built.

A new Garage could replace the old one - perhaps with a tall hotel on top of the garage? The lot on Free Street behind the old Margaritas could host a tall hotel tower

The Holiday Inn parking garage could be replaced with a new garage with a taller hotel on top.

AND THEN ... the Portland Square Lots could be leveraged for quite a bit for hotels, convention space, offices.

Exactly. Don't reinvent the wheel. It's already there.