Green Line Reconfiguration



Pre-Big Dig Essex / Surface Rd intersection with former off Ramp



Current Aerial at Essex / Surface Rd intersection

This is the area I feel could be a trouble spot for a South End alignment. There is a very narrow space between the Radian building and the I-93 tunnel. Any transit way extension would start off below I-93. In the previous Silver Line phase 3 study the tunnel would cross I-93 perpendicularly.

Ideally a South End route would also do this. The challenge is tunnel needs to turn immediately after crossing under the highway and then fit between the highway and the Radian through what I have measured as about 25ft.

I imagine this would mean that the transit tunnel would need to narrow to the width of one track with the other track stacked above. One track would stay down at the elevation below the highway and the other would ascend to the level of the highway. It may be a challenge to make this change in elevation in the short and curved distance available. Additionally the lower tunnel being adjacent to and below the highway will require careful underpinning of the highway tunnel walls.

One alternate is to cross I-93 at a diagonal path but that is longer distance to tunnel under the 1950s era highway tunnel.

Another option would be to tunnel one more block down Essex and then turn south, but the turning radius would be tight.

It seems this is the critical area to figure out to determine the viability of the South End routes.
 
Last edited:
F-Line I appreciate your concerns regarding scope creep and how that could adversely affect the T's positioning vis-a-vis FTA support. Moreover, I agree with your assessment. I just think that isn't really the the main issue right now. We are at somewhat of a transportation planning/funding paralysis in Massachusetts and frankly I think a lot of the impetus for major projects going forward is going to have to come from the bottom-up instead of the top-down.

That is why I would define the next steps on this particular proposal as being basic advocacy work. The goal is to get this on the public's radar in a broad way so that Massport/MBTA starts really examining this proposal. Massport/MBTA can bear in mind how to define the scope of the project so as to best position it for FTA matching funding. In the meantime the goal is just to put the policymakers in a position where people are asking "What are your thoughts on this?" and "Why haven't you looked into this yet?" because that is the only way the planner are ever going to go back to the drawing board on SL Phase III.

[If you listen to the latest TransitMatters podcast Rich Davey goes over why the T simply just not have the bandwidth to really think long-term and creatively on transit planning on its own because it is so focused on just trying to get through every day. It's worth a listen.]

Does anyone have ideas for how to get this into the general consciousness of the citizens and planning departments of Boston as well as Massachusetts?

At this point it is still an interesting hypothetical dilemma but it also addresses a real need for transit and could lead to better rail operations eventually as well as more options for relieving Central Subway congestion so how do we move this out of the echo chamber here and into the public dialogue?

So with that all being said I think these are the pieces you need to have in place to start laying the groundwork for an advocacy push:

1. You need the general public to become aware that this is a doable proposal. Specifically, you need them to know they can have a train in the Seaport! It's not fantasy land crap.

2. You need to get something the property developers can sink their teeth into. This means something a bit more involved than a PowerPoint outlining the idea. If it were a veritable feasibility study they could then wave that in front of the mayor, the legislature and the governor and say "Hey, this [institute/group/scholar,etc.] says the Seaport can have a train. What is the status of that?" You really need to co-opt this constituency in order to give this proposal some political heft. They generally aren't persuaded by altruism but they are aware that congestion could undermine some of their investments going on in the Seaport and would very much be in favor of a major solution that looks to mitigate that problem while simultaneously making their investments even more valuable.

3. The feasibility study needs to account for Washington Street light rail. That's because a train to the Seaport may be meritorious in its own right but the politics of sending a train to the richest part of the city and neglecting economic justice areas could sink this idea. Couple it with Washington street light rail and say how one project begets the other. Marry those two constituencies together. It's the only way this thing can get the requisite support.

How to do that?

I see two scenarios.

The first involves a bunch of AB posters and transit enthusiasts getting together and preparing a presentation. The presentation can more or less synthesize the reasoning that we've gone over in this thread. That means quoting all the old studies and introducing the issue as well as the proposed solution (obviously this would need to be done in a more succinct and appealing manner than is done here). The presentation should be a slick PowerPoint, a clever youtube video, a snazzy webpage, and a social media push. Moreover, the rollout should be carefully choreographed so as to maximize press exposure when it finally does go live.

The idea behind this method really just to "pitch" the idea in the hopes that the general public or the powers at be are so excited by the proposal they then pick up the torch and try to carry it forward. This methodology could work but I fear that the initial detractors saying that this is just a fanciful idea we can't afford will make this approach lose wind quickly. It might resemble North South Rail Link advocacy which often tends to be disregarded as too crazy to really be taken seriously. It's a shame but that's often how these things go.

That being said, at least this idea would be out there and one could hope that the cause would be carried on at some point. That by itself makes this approach worthwhile at a minimum. I just don't have much faith that it would accomplish much in the current environment.

The second scenario involves raising funds to pay for a Feasibility Study. Once the feasibility study is prepared the promoters could then begin a soft rollout to property developers in the Seaport and community leaders in the Washington Street corridor/those neighborhoods impacted by the Washington Street light rail connection. Once those stakeholders are bought in, the promoter can then prepare the wider public campaign that includes the PowerPoint, the youtube video, the webpage, social media, etc. Again, the "wide" rollout will need to be in such a manner as to maximize press exposure.

This approach has the advantage of making the whole thing a lot more credible because of the study behind it. Also, you can get broader buy-in from the outset having done some groundwork in advance with the soft rollout. Most importantly, this approach stunts the inevitable comments about how this is just a crazy subway proposal that we could never ever afford.

The question is, how much capital does one need in order to undertake this kind of targeted advocacy? Or more specifically, how much does a feasibility study cost (the assumption being the advocacy part involving the soft rollout, stakeholder marshaling, presentation prepartion and press campaign when you finally do go wide is mostly done on a volunteer basis)? That is the key question because if we are talking in the tens of thousands of dollars I think the funds could be raised from deep-pocketed real estate developers in the Seaport area. Maybe even $100k. However, if studies start climbing much higher than that I think this approach is just too rich for grass-roots advocacy.

The example for this approach is the Brooklyn Queen connector streetcar that was just rolled out. Whether or not you think that proposal in particular is a good idea the study and presentation was funded by real estate interests so that by the time it was publicized it had some real substance to it. This seems to have had an impact as the idea was taken up by the De Blasio administration in his recent State of the City address. A similar approach could be applied in this instance in order to kick-start the long overdue discussion on this topic and put this front and center on our policymakers agenda.

I obviously opt for the second scenario as that is the most effective way to get something done in this city. However, it's hard to figure out the barriers to entry without having a sense of how much a feasibility study would cost. Anyone else have any thoughts?
 
F-Line to dudley said:
recycling the engineering for the Park St. inbound inner track thru-service project

F-Line, do you know of any documentation out there regarding that project. I've stared at those inner tracks and always wondered. it'd be nice to see what the actual plan looked like.
 


Pre-Big Dig Essex / Surface Rd intersection with former off Ramp



Current Aerial at Essex / Surface Rd intersection

This is the area I feel could be a trouble spot for a South End alignment. There is a very narrow space between the Radian building and the I-93 tunnel. Any transit way extension would start off below I-93. In the previous Silver Line phase 3 study the tunnel would cross I-93 perpendicularly.

Ideally a South End route would also do this. The challenge is tunnel needs to turn immediately after crossing under the highway and then fit between the highway and the Radian through what I have measured as about 25ft.

I imagine this would mean that the transit tunnel would need to narrow to the width of one track with the other track stacked above. One track would stay down at the elevation below the highway and the other would ascend to the level of the highway. It may be a challenge to make this change in elevation in the short and curved distance available. Additionally the lower tunnel being adjacent to and below the highway will require careful underpinning of the highway tunnel walls.

One alternate is to cross I-93 at a diagonal path but that is longer distance to tunnel under the 1950s era highway tunnel.

Another option would be to tunnel one more block down Essex and then turn south, but the turning radius would be tight.

It seems this is the critical area to figure out to determine the viability of the South End routes.

I doubt that'll be a problem. If the trolley tunnel is going to slip under 93 on Essex, it'll have had to start descending well before that shallow stairwell a mere 150 ft. before the Essex intersection. Base of the stairwell is 3 ft. above the 93 pavement up on the emergency sidewalk, making it 10 ft. above the bottom surface of heavily reinforced auto tunnel floor. Even if the trolley tunnel's descent still puts it somewhere alongside the tunnel floor at this point, chances are it's going to have slipped a good distance below the base of the stairs if it aims to hit bottom depth in time for the Essex intersection without passengers having to reach for their barf bags.

Secondly, that's not a structural impactor of the permenance of a building foundation or mainline vehicle tunnel. If you have to nuke the stairwell for 2 years while that block is under construction, then put it back together when the block is sewn back up...so be it. Or even relocate it a few dozen feet. The 20 ft. 'sandwich' layer of under-street utilities and manhole-accessible infrastructure always gets the living crap torn out of it during a cut-and-cover construction project. Significant amount of basic cut-and-cover tunneling cost is tied up in utility relocation...and re-relocation when they're done. Big Dig made all sorts of messes like this, including a section of Red Line wall that had to be punched out a little bit south of SS to run some utilities. For a few years there outbound trains blew past an outright missing dozen feet of wall braced with construction scaffolding and lit by bright floodlights.

Classify that as "utilities". The 93 ramp tunnel won't be completely untouched. It will have to have some wall utilities relocated, such as maybe a re-snaking of one of the vent ducts that feeds the smoke stacks down the street. There will be traffic cones closing off the right lane a bunch of nights/weekends while they work in those utility rooms. It's not a non-factor for impacts...but in no way, shape, or form does that exit staircase rate as mitigation co-equals with a permanent building foundation. That row of facing Hudson St. buildings on the Golden Leaf side of the Kneeland intersection is still the scariest-looking torture test by a wide margin. This is trivial in comparison.
 
F-Line, do you know of any documentation out there regarding that project. I've stared at those inner tracks and always wondered. it'd be nice to see what the actual plan looked like.

I never saw them published online, but it did win a few $M in federal grants in the late-'00s and had construction starts pegged for around 2010-11. The final engineering survey of what support pegs they had to move turned up the bad news on cost bloat, so they canceled and returned the federal grant.

It wasn't grandiose. Just look to your left on an inbound train departing for GC after the half-height wall for the Red Line stairs ends. There's a little thicket of steel beams and a couple electrical boxes in the empty area in the middle before the outbound track comes merging back in. Some of that stuff was going to be relocated, and 2 switches + couple dozen feet of new track was going to get put down through that cleared path spanning the distance from the loop track to the GC-bound track. That's it.

The only reason it got canceled is because they thought they could get it done for middle-high 7 figures, and it ended up costing low 8 figures. It was a nice-to-have for traffic management, but the world wouldn't end if they couldn't do it in prep for GLX.


If something comes along that's got a bit more urgency than a nice-to-have...they'll spend the money to move those pegs and utilities. They know what the final cost and feasibility is; they just need a reason good enough to trigger it.
 
I like this plan from 100 years ago for a Green Line extension. It was pretty much designed and ready to go:

25120724165_be366353be_b.jpg


I would continue the tunnel east along Essex Street and connect to the Silver Line tunnel.
 
F-Line I appreciate your concerns regarding scope creep and how that could adversely affect the T's positioning vis-a-vis FTA support. Moreover, I agree with your assessment. I just think that isn't really the the main issue right now. We are at somewhat of a transportation planning/funding paralysis in Massachusetts and frankly I think a lot of the impetus for major projects going forward is going to have to come from the bottom-up instead of the top-down.

That is why I would define the next steps on this particular proposal as being basic advocacy work. The goal is to get this on the public's radar in a broad way so that Massport/MBTA starts really examining this proposal. Massport/MBTA can bear in mind how to define the scope of the project so as to best position it for FTA matching funding. In the meantime the goal is just to put the policymakers in a position where people are asking "What are your thoughts on this?" and "Why haven't you looked into this yet?" because that is the only way the planner are ever going to go back to the drawing board on SL Phase III.

[If you listen to the latest TransitMatters podcast Rich Davey goes over why the T simply just not have the bandwidth to really think long-term and creatively on transit planning on its own because it is so focused on just trying to get through every day. It's worth a listen.]



So with that all being said I think these are the pieces you need to have in place to start laying the groundwork for an advocacy push:

1. You need the general public to become aware that this is a doable proposal. Specifically, you need them to know they can have a train in the Seaport! It's not fantasy land crap.

2. You need to get something the property developers can sink their teeth into. This means something a bit more involved than a PowerPoint outlining the idea. If it were a veritable feasibility study they could then wave that in front of the mayor, the legislature and the governor and say "Hey, this [institute/group/scholar,etc.] says the Seaport can have a train. What is the status of that?" You really need to co-opt this constituency in order to give this proposal some political heft. They generally aren't persuaded by altruism but they are aware that congestion could undermine some of their investments going on in the Seaport and would very much be in favor of a major solution that looks to mitigate that problem while simultaneously making their investments even more valuable.

3. The feasibility study needs to account for Washington Street light rail. That's because a train to the Seaport may be meritorious in its own right but the politics of sending a train to the richest part of the city and neglecting economic justice areas could sink this idea. Couple it with Washington street light rail and say how one project begets the other. Marry those two constituencies together. It's the only way this thing can get the requisite support.

How to do that?

I see two scenarios.

The first involves a bunch of AB posters and transit enthusiasts getting together and preparing a presentation. The presentation can more or less synthesize the reasoning that we've gone over in this thread. That means quoting all the old studies and introducing the issue as well as the proposed solution (obviously this would need to be done in a more succinct and appealing manner than is done here). The presentation should be a slick PowerPoint, a clever youtube video, a snazzy webpage, and a social media push. Moreover, the rollout should be carefully choreographed so as to maximize press exposure when it finally does go live.

The idea behind this method really just to "pitch" the idea in the hopes that the general public or the powers at be are so excited by the proposal they then pick up the torch and try to carry it forward. This methodology could work but I fear that the initial detractors saying that this is just a fanciful idea we can't afford will make this approach lose wind quickly. It might resemble North South Rail Link advocacy which often tends to be disregarded as too crazy to really be taken seriously. It's a shame but that's often how these things go.

That being said, at least this idea would be out there and one could hope that the cause would be carried on at some point. That by itself makes this approach worthwhile at a minimum. I just don't have much faith that it would accomplish much in the current environment.

The second scenario involves raising funds to pay for a Feasibility Study. Once the feasibility study is prepared the promoters could then begin a soft rollout to property developers in the Seaport and community leaders in the Washington Street corridor/those neighborhoods impacted by the Washington Street light rail connection. Once those stakeholders are bought in, the promoter can then prepare the wider public campaign that includes the PowerPoint, the youtube video, the webpage, social media, etc. Again, the "wide" rollout will need to be in such a manner as to maximize press exposure.

This approach has the advantage of making the whole thing a lot more credible because of the study behind it. Also, you can get broader buy-in from the outset having done some groundwork in advance with the soft rollout. Most importantly, this approach stunts the inevitable comments about how this is just a crazy subway proposal that we could never ever afford.

The question is, how much capital does one need in order to undertake this kind of targeted advocacy? Or more specifically, how much does a feasibility study cost (the assumption being the advocacy part involving the soft rollout, stakeholder marshaling, presentation prepartion and press campaign when you finally do go wide is mostly done on a volunteer basis)? That is the key question because if we are talking in the tens of thousands of dollars I think the funds could be raised from deep-pocketed real estate developers in the Seaport area. Maybe even $100k. However, if studies start climbing much higher than that I think this approach is just too rich for grass-roots advocacy.

The example for this approach is the Brooklyn Queen connector streetcar that was just rolled out. Whether or not you think that proposal in particular is a good idea the study and presentation was funded by real estate interests so that by the time it was publicized it had some real substance to it. This seems to have had an impact as the idea was taken up by the De Blasio administration in his recent State of the City address. A similar approach could be applied in this instance in order to kick-start the long overdue discussion on this topic and put this front and center on our policymakers agenda.

I obviously opt for the second scenario as that is the most effective way to get something done in this city. However, it's hard to figure out the barriers to entry without having a sense of how much a feasibility study would cost. Anyone else have any thoughts?

QFT. Well said.
 
Does anyone have ideas for how to get this into the general consciousness of the citizens and planning departments of Boston as well as Massachusetts?

At this point it is still an interesting hypothetical dilemma but it also addresses a real need for transit and could lead to better rail operations eventually as well as more options for relieving Central Subway congestion so how do we move this out of the echo chamber here and into the public dialogue?

Seriously - the city is growing faster than it has in decades yet NOTHING is being done to plan for long term rail transit projects... I just dont get it. Committing funds for the project itself may be a hot political potato but there isnt even anything being studied - it's like nobody is at the wheel for any transit vision and every "study" the Globe reports on talks about changing a traffic signal and adding a private bus somewhere as if thatll do anything!
 
Seriously - the city is growing faster than it has in decades yet NOTHING is being done to plan for long term rail transit projects... I just dont get it. Committing funds for the project itself may be a hot political potato but there isnt even anything being studied - it's like nobody is at the wheel for any transit vision and every "study" the Globe reports on talks about changing a traffic signal and adding a private bus somewhere as if thatll do anything!

What's worse is that it's not unrealistic to expect that restarting this project will take 20 years of arduous work before it nets actual construction. That lost decade of no progess is painful.

At this rate the only way to stave off that economic stagnation from overcongestion is to not only fund this, but fund the 1-2 punch of Red-Blue + this. Reason being that Red-Blue can get fast-tracked and opened way way sooner if they picked that one back up, and de-clogging Red dwell times (and to lesser extent Green + Orange) at the Park and DTX transfers is what buys 10 more years of wiggle room for the gears to grind on the Transitway connector project.

Maybe if they hadn't canceled both we wouldn't be in this situation where they're interdependent like that. But with so much time squandered the only realistic way to triage around that build timetable without choking off Seaport mobility to economically damaging degrees is to co-fund the $⅓-½B Red-Blue project with the $2B Seaport project and go pedal-to-the-metal on a Red-Blue FEIS + design-build simultaneous with the study + DEIS of the new Transitway connector alternatives. Pour that tunnel fucker down Cambridge St. like our economic lives depended on it...because they pretty much do if you want Red to remain functional long enough for the Seaport project to wind its way to completion.


We are not prepared for that as a state. At all. Not without the Legislature doing whole-hog financial overhaul of the T beforehand.
 
It's okay. Governor Baker will 'strangle someone' next time that shit hits the fan.

That will solve the problem.
 
It's okay. Governor Baker will 'strangle someone' next time that shit hits the fan.

That will solve the problem.

Easy punch, but short of being an advocate, there's nothing any governor can do to fix the funding mechanism behind the MBTA. Baker is setting the wrong tone to prepare the state for revenue increases, but Governors in MA are weak weak weak. It's the Great and General Court that has all the power and ultimately have all the responsibility to fix the T.
 
Easy punch, but short of being an advocate, there's nothing any governor can do to fix the funding mechanism behind the MBTA. Baker is setting the wrong tone to prepare the state for revenue increases, but Governors in MA are weak weak weak. It's the Great and General Court that has all the power and ultimately have all the responsibility to fix the T.

My guess is you won't see any real effort to fix the T until businesses start to complain the poor performance is actually hurting them significantly. It could also just be that we're a bunch of masochists and willing to put up with a shitty mass transportation system.
 
My guess is you won't see any real effort to fix the T until businesses start to complain the poor performance is actually hurting them significantly. It could also just be that we're a bunch of masochists and willing to put up with a shitty mass transportation system.

Problem is that by the time businesses really start to complain because the shitty transit system is failing, it's too late to start fixing it. There's a one or two decade lag time in planning to construction of large infrastructure projects. The fact that there's no discussion at all is damaging to the long-term prospects of Boston. If last winter didn't detail how important mass transit is to the regional economy, I don't know what will.
 
Problem is that by the time businesses really start to complain because the shitty transit system is failing, it's too late to start fixing it. There's a one or two decade lag time in planning to construction of large infrastructure projects. The fact that there's no discussion at all is damaging to the long-term prospects of Boston. If last winter didn't detail how important mass transit is to the regional economy, I don't know what will.

No disagreement, but I've basically resigned myself to realizing it's hopeless for the foreseeable future unfortunately. Eventually someone is going to get stuck holding this shit bag, but it could be decades.
 


Here's a scheme to run a new tunnel from the Silver Line to a portal on Avenue De Lafayette and then send a surface street car down Washington St to Government Center. From here the Brattle Loop could be connected to the surface which would create a connection to North Station.

This project would be tied into a complete redesign of City Hall Plaza and would re-imagine Washington Street into a European style shared street with trolley, pedestrian and vehicular loading traffic only.
 
A more simple version of this scheme would be to keep the silver line as a bus with a portal on Avenue de Lafayette. From here one line would loop at Boylston and Chinatown stations on the surface and then back into the portal which would make transfers from the green and orange lines much more convenient to silver line waterfront.

Additionally the Washington street silver line could be sent into this portal to the seaport. Future bus lines from the back bay or north station could also be routed through this portal toward south station and the seaport.

Since the seaport is in great need of better transit connections to the rest of the subway lines now and will need these connections even more so as all the future developments come on line this seems like the fastest and least expensive way to achieve this in the relatively short term.
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
Whatever drug they were on when they laid these out, I don't want to ever take.
 

Back
Top