Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

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Rover

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

Well first, recessions are an intrinsic part of capitalism and absolutely coming in a bubble like this so if anyone is rooting for a recession it is you not me.

Secondly who gives a fuck if it is "illegal" to fight back against your landlord? they wrote the law that way in the first place, and even with the law on their side they break it literally constantly to drive up prices and maximize their profits, simply for owning a deed. They aren't needed and they are the profiteers so if you are actually interested at all into who is being "screwed" over it is the people from whom value is being extracted in exchange for their right to live not those who make profit off of it. landlords are miles from being screwed and even if they were about to be, good.

it is also just genuinely laughable to suggest that what is being built meaningfully reflects needs. They simply don't. we have a total glut of luxury housing and a total dearth of affordable housing but if you ask fucking anyone besides the owners and developers they want more of the latter and less of the former. The capitalist system means that what is built is what is profitable to the owners not what is needed and just pretending that those are the same thing is completely dishonest.
I get the appeal of smoking dope, banging the tambourine and listening to the Pete Seeger tunes over at the commune but none of your ideas are workable in the real world.

First, we need to follow the law both for tenants and for landlords. You can't just start disregarding laws that you don't like. It sounds like you'd like to see a return to rent control. That will happen about the same time President Chump admits he's ever done anything wrong. In short, don't hold your breath. In the meantime look for solutions that actually have a snowball's chance in hell of happening.

Next, there is no "glut of luxury housing" because these condos are all selling. If they weren't nothing would get built. That's wishful thinking on your part and it ignores the symbiotic relationship between tax revenue from luxury dwellings and funds available to build/maintain affordable housing.

Finally, nobody has a God given right to live downtown at 1980 prices. Move somewhere cheaper. I myself when purchasing a home couldn't afford to live in Lexington so I bought a place one town over that I could afford. I didn't blame the entire capitalist system for that, and the fact that I've now doubled the return on my investment is purely coincidental. :D
 

odurandina

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

Pay your taxes and give the lefty loon moonbats their porridge.

Build baby build.....
 

coleslaw

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

I get the appeal of smoking dope, banging the tambourine and listening to the Pete Seeger tunes over at the commune but none of your ideas are workable in the real world.

First, we need to follow the law both for tenants and for landlords. You can't just start disregarding laws that you don't like. It sounds like you'd like to see a return to rent control. That will happen about the same time President Chump admits he's ever done anything wrong. In short, don't hold your breath. In the meantime look for solutions that actually have a snowball's chance in hell of happening.

Next, there is no "glut of luxury housing" because these condos are all selling. If they weren't nothing would get built. That's wishful thinking on your part and it ignores the symbiotic relationship between tax revenue from luxury dwellings and funds available to build/maintain affordable housing.

Finally, nobody has a God given right to live downtown at 1980 prices. Move somewhere cheaper. I myself when purchasing a home couldn't afford to live in Lexington so I bought a place one town over that I could afford. I didn't blame the entire capitalist system for that, and the fact that I've now doubled the return on my investment is purely coincidental. :D
Nothing I said had any relation to that but smears without actually arguing any point is real easy for you huh?

No you don't. You don't because landlords don't (for example most evictions are done without actually having the legal right to do so) and you don't because the law is a construct of power. Landlords are allowed to break it because they have power, tenants aren't because they don't. With popular power organized the arbitrary law negotiated on no even terms might be able to be challenged and changed again. The law is not some unquestionable virtue it is made and changed by human hands, and under a system with massive imbalances of power that show in all of its folds, enforcements, and manifestations.

The idea that you can only support things immediately accepted by your class enemies (who also hold state and economic power) is a surefire way to get nowhere. Rent control is still popular with tenants and as long as that is the case the question is of when they get organized well enough to take it not when political leaders decide its a good idea, which they will never do because of their relationship with the landlords.

Of course they are selling, I never refuted that, the question in this context is if they are actually being used as housing for people who need them or as investments. There is evidence that in many cases it is the later. even if they are used 1/3 of the time by someone with 2 other homes the exchange value is far exceeding the use value, especially when you consider that at the same time people are getting displaced. You only seem able to conceptualize the need for anything through market logic and it leads to some wildly short sighted results like that.

Not everyone can just buy somewhere else or at all. Not everyone grew up in a rich suburb and has the same access to capital that your mommy and daddy gave you. Expecting others in worse conditions to be able to do the same thing you did with a leg up and a handout is the height of arrogance and perfectly illustrates the total sham that is your line of argument.

If anyone has a right to live in the city it is the people who fucking built it and made it into the city all these yuppies and suburbanites who fled black and brown people a few decades ago now want to come back to.
 
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stick n move

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

Yea thats basically what Im saying. I was reading through this thread and saw Orandomdiana saying the usual if we dont build this and 100 more high rises prices will never go down and Boston is doomed. Its literally the exact opposite. I do support this tower though and all the development thats going on though because Boston is becoming 100 times nicer of a city than it ever has. But building these towers has a compounding effect actually making the city way nicer and more and more expensive. A new high rise goes up, more people move in, the city gets a little nicer, another area is fixed up, boston gets a little better more people move in, multiply this over the whole city and now Boston is cleaned up, developed, and muuuch nicer, plus lots of people are living here so more people want to live here. It compounds.

Look at NYCs population and the 7 billion on earth plus 350 million in America and theres literally an infinite amount of people that can and will move here the more and more it grows, gets bigger, has bigger international companies like GE, Amazon...and has all these towers/new neighborhoods to fit them. If Boston can fit 1 million people it will and the city will be muuuch nicer by then with better transit and a great skyline. That would mean allston yards, the entire seaport, northpoint, Brighton...etc are all finished up plus housing infilled throughout the entire city, much more expanded transit, so now Boston is incredible, great skyline/world class developments like hub on causeway all over the city and has tonssss of jobs so that amount of people can/will live in this much bigger, much nicer city thats now really on an international level and so it gets even more expensive. So the argument that we need this or that because it will lower housing costs... I dont buy it. What city is booming and going down in price? So lets throw that argument out. We need this because tall buildings are cool and it makes this area around it nicer than it was works fine.
 

TomOfBoston

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

Housing prices will not be brought down by building more housing that only encourages further speculation, they can only be brought down by collective struggle against landlords and profiteers.
Caracas, Venezuela did this. Don't think it worked out too well for them.
 

Rover

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

No you don't. You don't because landlords don't (for example most evictions are done without actually having the legal right to do so) and you don't because the law is a construct of power. Landlords are allowed to break it because they have power, tenants aren't because they don't. With popular power organized the arbitrary law negotiated on no even terms might be able to be challenged and changed again. The law is not some unquestionable virtue it is made and changed by human hands, and under a system with massive imbalances of power that show in all of its folds, enforcements, and manifestations.

The idea that you can only support things immediately accepted by your class enemies (who also hold state and economic power) is a surefire way to get nowhere. Rent control is still popular with tenants and as long as that is the case the question is of when they get organized well enough to take it not when political leaders decide its a good idea, which they will never do because of their relationship with the landlords.

Of course they are selling, I never refuted that, the question in this context is if they are actually being used as housing for people who need them or as investments. There is evidence that in many cases it is the later. even if they are used 1/3 of the time by someone with 2 other homes the exchange value is far exceeding the use value, especially when you consider that at the same time people are getting displaced. You only seem able to conceptualize the need for anything through market logic and it leads to some wildly short sighted results like that.

Not everyone can just buy somewhere else or at all. Not everyone grew up in a rich suburb and has the same access to capital that your mommy and daddy gave you. Expecting others in worse conditions to be able to do the same thing you did with a leg up and a handout is the height of arrogance and perfectly illustrates the total shame that is your line of argument.

If anyone has a right to live in the city it is the people who fucking built it and made it into the city all these yuppies and suburbanites who fled black and brown people a few decades ago now want to come back to.
If you aren't already on drugs I suggest you start. Yikes.

1) how do you know the people who "built the city" are the ones you're helping? What if they're the landlords now? Do you screw them with one hand while giving them a handout with the other?

2) Why is every low income person worthy of our sympathy, and every person of means worthy of our scorn? Is it really that black and white?

3) You can use a rental as your legal residence. That means you can vote. Assuming there are more renters than owners living in the city, why can't they get together and vote in politicians to represent their interests? If people feel the way you do, shouldn't we be calling Tito Jackson Mr. Mayor right now?

4) How do you control for self made people, of which there are many? Say you didn't get a leg up but through talent or whatnot you're now pulling in big bucks. Do you ream them just for having the audacity to provide for their family and being able to afford to live where they want?

. So the argument that we need this or that because it will lower housing costs... I dont buy it. What city is booming and going down in price? So lets throw that argument out. .
Umm...nobody is actually saying this, so yours is a straw man argument. People will continue to flood Boston because of good paying jobs. Only way to mitigate housing increases is by building. Housing prices will not go down unless people stop moving here.
 

stick n move

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

People say it on every thread including this one go to pg 1.
 

coleslaw

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

If you aren't already on drugs I suggest you start. Yikes.

1) how do you know the people who "built the city" are the ones you're helping? What if they're the landlords now? Do you screw them with one hand while giving them a handout with the other?

2) Why is every low income person worthy of our sympathy, and every person of means worthy of our scorn? Is it really that black and white?

3) You can use a rental as your legal residence. That means you can vote. Assuming there are more renters than owners living in the city, why can't they get together and vote in politicians to represent their interests? If people feel the way you do, shouldn't we be calling Tito Jackson Mr. Mayor right now?

4) How do you control for self made people, of which there are many? Say you didn't get a leg up but through talent or whatnot you're now pulling in big bucks. Do you ream them just for having the audacity to provide for their family and being able to afford to live where they want?



Umm...nobody is actually saying this, so yours is a straw man argument. People will continue to flood Boston because of good paying jobs. Only way to mitigate housing increases is by building. Housing prices will not go down unless people stop moving here.
1) We vastly overestimate class mobility in the US and we have one of the lowest in the developed world. For the vast majority of people if you are born with money you still have money if you were born without money you are still broke.

2) Never said anything like that, we are talking about structural problems of class society not personal morals. Don't confuse the two.

3) For the most part poor people don't vote, nor do I think they have much reason to. Politicians do not represent their interests, I'm very skeptical of the state although there are parts of it I would rather have some semblance of democratic control then be run privately (schools hospitals trains etc.) I support popular control of commons.

4) How many really are there? In research I did a few years ago over 97% of millionaires inherited over a million or came from a family who also were millionaires. Wealth has only become more concentrated post 2008 so I doubt that has changed at all. I do not judge people for wanting to provide for their family. I judge a system that denies that ability to so many, and ties it explicitly for most people to your willingness/ability to sell your labor.
 

DZH22

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

3) For the most part poor people don't vote, nor do I think they have much reason to.
If you don't vote, then you aren't allowed to complain about it afterward.
 

shmessy

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

Another thing I see a lot is that building all of these high rises will bring rent down. I dont think thats the case at all tbh and I think its the complete opposite. New york is throwing up like 100 new towers and rent has never been higher. I think all this building is making the city better and thus more expensive. Bringing all these new people here is making it the place to be and prices go up. All of this development all around the city is making the city infinitely better than it has ever been so its going to command a premium. So I think its actually doing the opposite. Manhattan has like 9 million people, theres basicalky an infinite amount of people that can move here. Not to mention after college people used to move away now with this many more jobs more are staying. I dont think a tower like this will bring rent down at all it just gives more room for people to locate here. Then more people want to and it never ends. I think affordable housing out in the neighborhoods, like a shiiiiit ton would help a lot, but thats not happening. High rises in the back bay and downtown are not helping us pay rent and its actually just attracting more people. The world has 7 billion theres an unlimited amount of growth potential. I dont see really any affordable housing going up at all and were just going to have to accept that rents are going to skyrocket. I think if Boston stagnated and wasnt building all these new jobs are high rises thats the only case youd see rents drop. Making the city a million times nicer wont.
Throw in a 2% tax on all these $5 million+ apartments and connect the freaking North and South Stations already. Problem solved. You are all welcome.
 

shmessy

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

Well first, recessions are an intrinsic part of capitalism and absolutely coming in a bubble like this so if anyone is rooting for a recession it is you not me.

Secondly who gives a fuck if it is "illegal" to fight back against your landlord? they wrote the law that way in the first place, and even with the law on their side they break it literally constantly to drive up prices and maximize their profits, simply for owning a deed. They aren't needed and they are the profiteers so if you are actually interested at all into who is being "screwed" over it is the people from whom value is being extracted in exchange for their right to live not those who make profit off of it. landlords are miles from being screwed and even if they were about to be, good.

it is also just genuinely laughable to suggest that what is being built meaningfully reflects needs. They simply don't. we have a total glut of luxury housing and a total dearth of affordable housing but if you ask fucking anyone besides the owners and developers they want more of the latter and less of the former. The capitalist system means that what is built is what is profitable to the owners not what is needed and just pretending that those are the same thing is completely dishonest.

Plus your 5 subsequent posts to that.....

Why are you so angry?
 

coleslaw

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

If you don't vote, then you aren't allowed to complain about it afterward.
There are much more important ways to involve yourself in your community and politically than voting. Especially for president, where in MA it literally means nothing.
 

shmessy

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

Not. But I do think it would be reasonable to be angry about exploitation.
Absolutely.

But exploitation is as natural to the human condition as jealousy or sadness.

Are you going to outlaw those also?

Your prescriptions are as exploitative (and unfair) as the condition you protest.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but if it makes you feel better, rock on.

In the meantime, I'm looking forward to the extension of the tall wall along Huntington here - - this street is really taking shape well. Put the slight tax on these multi-million dollar new apartments, connect the N and S stations (and perhaps some housing linkage payments) and EVERYBODY (not just your group) wins.

It's a beautiful world.
 

coleslaw

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

Absolutely.

But exploitation is as natural to the human condition as jealousy or sadness.

Are you going to outlaw those also?

Your prescriptions are as exploitative (and unfair) as the condition you protest.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but if it makes you feel better, rock on.

In the meantime, I'm looking forward to the extension of the tall wall along Huntington here - - this street is really taking shape well. Put the slight tax on these multi-million dollar new apartments, connect the N and S stations (and perhaps some housing linkage payments) and EVERYBODY (not just your group) wins.

It's a beautiful world.
What are my prescriptions exactly?
 

Rover

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

What are my prescriptions exactly?
As best I can tell nationalizing housing construction and outlawing private property ownership. :D

EDIT: You've got to be the only person in the world who can get me and shmessy on the same side. So you've got that going for you. Which is nice.
 

shmessy

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

What are my prescriptions exactly?
"Housing prices will not be brought down by building more housing that only encourages further speculation, they can only be brought down by collective struggle against landlords and profiteers.."

History is a cycle of winners and losers. You stay in your merry go round of struggle to beat the "bad guys".

The true path to actual human PROGRESS is to work for Win-Win. There are ways. However, you won't get the thrill of watching someone lose. Unfortunately, it seems that is your main goal.

Someday you may learn that waging war only begets more war.

.
 
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Justin7

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

For the most part poor people don't vote, nor do I think they have much reason to.
Holy shit.

I've no way of knowing your motivations, but I'll say again that just about every post you make here serves only to harm the causes you claim to support. The above makes me think there's a good chance that is either or intentional or that you care not so much about people but more about having a group to belong to.

If you actually do want to affect change you need to work for it. You need to find common ground or at least a way to approach people in a way that doesn't immediately alienate them. And FFS you need to encourage people to vote.

For now I'm going with Russian troll and hitting ignore. Send me a PM in the unlikely even that care to convince me otherwise.
 

shmessy

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DZH22

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Re: The Huntington | 252, 258, and 264 Huntington Avenue

There are much more important ways to involve yourself in your community and politically than voting.
Alienating every member of a local forum is a solid first step.
 
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