CBTC for the T

NJBostonFan

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How possible would it be to install a Communications Based Train Control system, similar to those installed on the metros in Beijing, Shanghai, and Paris, on the Red Line, with future expansion to the Blue and Orange Lines, as well as new construction? Would a Bombardier system work well for a Brownfield system? Or would a Thales or Siemens system work better? How does it affect new equipment orders?
 
Hey, interesting question. I'm not sure most of the members of this board are equipped to provide an answer, though, with the exception of F-Line to Dudley and one or two others.

Have you considered asking the folks at railroad.net? There are some extremely knowledgeable people over there, and there is a somewhat active sub-board dedicated to MBTA rail operations. I suspect somebody there could give you a very detailed answer.
 
Sure, it could be done, but I would guess it is very costly, especially with a different signal system in place. It would probably be a very good idea for new construction, though. As far as I know, the Red Line and it's 01800 series rolling stock are already capable of running ATO, and from what I know, CBTC is merely an upgrade from that and allows for "moving blocks" and thus the most efficient headways imaginable. The Orange Line runs on ATC, I think, which would mean it is not capable of ATO and needs a little more work, and the Blue Line, I'm not even sure. Some ancient combo of ATC and trip arms?

Brace yourself for F-Line's post, it will be the most informative info you'll find.
 
Adding to the question: what is the major expense with upgrading a signalling system? I take it this isn't like timing traffic lights on a road... there's more to this than wires and lights, I'm guessing... but, what?
 
They're funded for a $1-2M study of it on the Green Line. Fallout from the NTSB reports after the fatal D line accident and the non-fatal Government Center wreck. So we'll know in 3 years or so what the official study results say. It's an initiative they'll be strongly compelled to do because of liability risk of another accident and chances that a Strike 3 on operator error accidents will get the NTSB mandating it.

Green probably has most to benefit from it. It's still operating on fully human-controlled 19th century signaling where the inspectors stationed in booths (like the one at the end of the Boylston platform) monitor the schedules on pen and pad. Operators have to obey the very short signal blocks and operate solely on line-of-sight, which is why you have those annoying automatic stop-and-protect signals that are always red like the one between Boylston and Arlington where the tunnel makes a slight descent and the operator can't see the next signal block. Also a reason why they've very reluctant to allow 2 trains into a station at once except where they absolutely have to...they're wholly dependent on the 2nd train's operator to inch in at safe speed.

When you consider that the D is supposed to run all the way through to Medford Hillside the need for automatic signals becomes clear. Especially with the D now speed-restricted after the accident per NTSB orders because of signals that have low visibility in sun glare. CBTC allows for moving blocks, auto-enforced speed restrictions, full computer control from central dispatching to manage headways, and ability to pack the trains much closer at higher speed because the trains' cab signal readouts can sense where the next train ahead is if a block is occupied. No need to operate line-of-sight, all those auto stop-and-protect signals disappear (with possible exception of Copley Jct.), the grade-separated surface branches can operate again at 50 MPH, they can pull into stations back-to-back because an operator would be restricted to 2 or 3 MPH on an occupied block with no potential to cause damage except a jolt and "hard coupling" of the train in front, fewer backups because of fewer red light signals, and if there's a signal failure on the track circuits the onboard computer goes into emergency and enforces an instant stop, then speed-restricted line-of-sight override to crawl over the block. Plus they'll be able to make schedule a LOT more and get actionable computer data to model best way of mixing grade-separated on-signal traffic with the B, C, and E surface routes that still have to obey road signals on full human control like they do today (CBTC would end at the Northeastern, Blandford, and St. Mary's portals just like the subway signals do).

Not at all hard to implement; smarter version of the same tried-and-true ATO system the Red and Orange lines use, with a Positive Train Control layer like the ACSES system Amtrak and the Providence Line use. Catered to non-street light rail use. It's expensive to rip out existing signals and install track circuits...something like $350M for all of the subway and the D. But that price also includes an small order of new cars to fill in the extra schedule slots.

It would be revolutionary. Without a doubt the single biggest improvement they can make to the GL. Even moreso than the surface signal priority Huntington Ave. and Beacon St. are already wired for, but the T won't activate (real surface priority + CBTC in the subway is pretty much the only long-term way to save the B from total asphyxiation).


They've also got an unfunded line item in the 2012-2016 cap improvement budget for study of CBTC on the Blue Line. Less necessary there, but the current trip-arm system of speed enforcement requires switch heaters on the surface at every mechanical signal arm to prevent icing, which gets expensive and failure-prone to maintain with the rough ocean weather. They'd want to eventually upgrade even if the Lynn extension is mothballed just to simplify maintenance. CBTC on a heavy rail line allows for theoretical 2-minute safe headways, again because of the moving blocks and auto-sensing. Far more than Blue has enough cars to handle, but boy...if it ever were extended north to tap the insane ridership projections out to Lynn or Salem...you would be floored by how fast and frequent the service is.

Red is by far the line that needs it most, but the price tag the state PMT specced was $¾B to get all that track and 2 branches done + buying a shitload of new cars to fill the expanded capacity. Orange is almost half bil and may need it least because it's not yet maxing the headways the current signals will support (not enough cars). But that too would benefit if they ever extend on either end or have a need to start using the northside express tracks in full service. Cost on those two lines is why they're angling for Green first (most necessary for safety, most to gain by eliminating human error), Blue second (short, no branches, very few subway stops).

But that would solve literally all of the RL's capacity problems and the downtown choke points. You wouldn't see 2 minute headways because ancient Park and DTX simply do not have the platform sizes or egresses to move that many people off the platform fast enough for dwell times supporting those headways, but it would pad the schedule for the natural variance in dwell times at those old stations so 4-5 minute headways are doable all day without delay. Will never have to stop for a scenic 5 minute Longfellow view because everything's backed up to Broadway. The line would be able to handle thousands more rush hour commuters, which will be necessary with how explosive the load at South Station is growing (to get much worse when the commuter rail/Amtrak tracks are doubled and the waterfront gets built up...to say nothing about whether SL Phase III ever gets built in 30 years). And then stuff like converting the Mattapan line to heavy rail, adding a Braintree infill stop at Neponset, re-studying the Lexington/128 extension, or branching north of Columbia Jct. into the N-S Link are actually supportable in the 50-year range without ripping the shit up out of everything to add express tracks.

Old PMT specs from 2003 on cost (incl. extra cars) and ridership increases: http://www.bostonmpo.org/bostonmpo/pmt-old/PMT-2.pdf. Dated and only an educated guess because this hasn't been studied at all, but gives you a sense of scale of what the existing track can handle with modern signaling. Blue: +8800 new riders / +2700 all-new transit riders. Red: +9700 new riders / +3400 all-new transit riders. Orange: +10,900 new riders / +4500 all-new transit riders. Doesn't project Green at all because light rail requires much deeper study. $1.3B in 2003 dollars to net 29,400 new daily subway riders and 10,600 all-new daily transit riders who weren't using the system before on 3 lines. At existing stops with not a single extension or single foot of extra track added.

So insanely far and away the biggest ROI the T can get on any system enhancement. This shouldn't even be looked at in terms of an inner city project vs. a suburban investment. All those commuter rail riders have to get around the city somehow; the cascading ridership increases on every mode--bus, CR--make this almost pay for itself. If only the EOT and Beacon Hill weren't so attached to their golden shovels to pretend they're doing something 40 miles out of town they can invest billions they're already lighting on fire with something that'll literally pay itself all the way back by its second decade.


NYC has got this operating on one of its lines as a test. And they've got a much more daunting task with all that MTA track and nothing but old Blue Line-style mechanical signals. But payoff's great enough that even they are looking at making the very painful, very long-term investment.
 
They're funded for a $1-2M study of it on the Green Line....
Green probably has most to benefit from it. It's still operating on fully human-controlled 19th century signaling where the inspectors stationed in booths (like the one at the end of the Boylston platform) monitor the schedules on pen and pad....

When you consider that the D is supposed to run all the way through to Medford Hillside the need for automatic signals becomes clear... CBTC allows for moving blocks, auto-enforced speed restrictions, full computer control from central dispatching to manage headways, and ability to pack the trains much closer at higher speed because the trains' cab signal readouts can sense where the next train ahead is if a block is occupied......

It would be revolutionary. Without a doubt the single biggest improvement they can make to the GL....

They've also got an unfunded line item in the 2012-2016 cap improvement budget for study of CBTC on the Blue Line. Less necessary there,...

Red is by far the line that needs it most, but the price tag the state PMT specced was $¾B to get all that track and 2 branches done + buying a shitload of new cars to fill the expanded capacity.....

Old PMT specs from 2003 on cost (incl. extra cars) and ridership increases... sense of scale of what the existing track can handle with modern signaling. Blue: +8800 new riders / +2700 all-new transit riders. Red: +9700 new riders / +3400 all-new transit riders. Orange: +10,900 new riders / +4500 all-new transit riders.... $1.3B in 2003 dollars to net 29,400 new daily subway riders and 10,600 all-new daily transit riders who weren't using the system before on 3 lines. At existing stops with not a single extension or single foot of extra track added.

So insanely far and away the biggest ROI the T can get on any system enhancement.


NYC has got this operating on one of its lines as a test. And they've got a much more daunting task with all that MTA track and nothing but old Blue Line-style mechanical signals. But payoff's great enough that even they are looking at making the very painful, very long-term investment.


F-Line: -- great details

I would disagree with a couple of things:

1) don't need to buy cars for additional capacity immediately -- the improved control can allow incremental improvemements in frequency -- but significant reductions in commute time -- if the consumer of the service has a relaiable means of knowing (mobile ap) when to arrive for the next train --that alone should
support the fixed infrastructure investment with each set of new or rebuiilt rolling stock getting the functions

2) the cost will only become cheaper as technology improves and cost of equipment drops -- Moore's Law

3) after people see the benefits and start demanding the enhanced service by lining up and paying fares then the increased number of cars and then substantial increase in frequency is justified

As an aside about the old infrastructure -- I disagree about that being a major problem -- if you did want to increase the frequency substantially you could -- the total number of people embarking / debarking in a day will not change that much -- you'll in fact probably have less crowding as the load with be better distriuted over more trains during rush hour
 
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I should add, Red's also a problem today because they botched the spacing of the signal blocks in 198(7?) when the current ATO system was installed. Kendall to Broadway they're spaced too long when the high station density and dwell times at Park with both doors open merits tighter spacing. Everything starts backing up in cascading delays, you get those long dead stops over the Longfellow, and the subway ended up having less capacity than it had on the old Blue Line-ish signal system. In that case you do need more cars to handle 6-car trains at the headways that 4-car-only trains used to be able to run in the 1980's before they lengthened all the platforms. And since CBTC can handle better headways than that old system, probably a few more on top of that. Wouldn't be that way if the headways weren't artificially hurt by a bad design decision 25 years ago. If they timed the upgrade for when the (ongoing rebuilding) 01700 cars are due to be retired in 10-12 years or so, then they've got a good shot. Don't have to do both branches and the $750M build all at the same time because...can upgrade Alewife-JFK first, Braintree second, Ashmont third or something like that.

Orange just needs flat-out more cars. It's still using the same fleet that used to run 4-car-only on the old El. I think the next order's planned for 24 more than they've got now, and that's still not quite maxing out the current signal system because they don't use the Community College-Wellington express track. If they wanted to really pack 'em full that would merit a supplemental car order. Blue...I guess we'll find out in the study.

Green I would tend to agree that making existing and end-to-end D schedules work is a lot bigger goal for a signal upgrade than necessarily packing more cars. Headways aren't a problem; backups are. Whatever extra car needs they'll have will come from initiating 4-car trains, and that order would absorb the future difference with the signals. They can do quads a lot sooner; all it takes is a couple electrical substation upgrades.

Light rail needs are a little different with CBTC than heavy rail, so I don't think we'll know much about how it'll work till they do the study. The PMT didn't even hazard a guess on ridership impact because there aren't many comparisons for retrofits vs. new light rail systems. They're covering their asses somewhat by doing the study very near-term so in the event shit hits the fan again with another operator error whoopsie they they can fully articulate to the NTSB what installing such a system would entail. Upshot is we will have some hard numbers to chew on pretty soon for how much it'll improve on-time schedules and ridership. I can't see how it's not going to look real bullish. Only unanswered question is how much so.
 
F-Line

Why isn't the CBTC being put higher on the priority list than the Medford extension?
 

Yah, pretty much. :rolleyes:

The signals at new North Station and on the viaduct were re-wired to fiber optic when the '04 construction was done. That's half the battle when there's a digital feed available. It's all the analog copper in the subway that'll be pure pain. Only things they have to do on the extension to provision is make sure the conduit access is there for slapping down track circuit transmitters later on, have the fiber laid, and use rail with steel certified to transmit track signals (non-issue...that's the only rail they use now on subway or CR). It'd be like the Fitchburg Line upgrades where the fiber/rail/wayside spacing is being done now to permit easy add-on, but they have to wait a couple years until being able to afford cab signals.


The D line is due for a major roadbed rebuild as an unfunded mandate in the '12-16 cap improvements plan (i.e. don't hold your breath before 2020) because it hasn't been touched since well before its RR conversion and things like last year's washout are exposing the weaknesses. Plus the 52-year-old signal system wiring is well past end-of-life whereas the subway's got more recent partial replacement NS during construction and Copley-Kenmore no thanks to the '96 flood. Hurrying up with the CBTC study is timed so they can consider the logistics when the D project gets scheduled.

What they'll likely do is D first simultaneous with the incremental roadbed rebuild during 1-1/2 years of weekend bustitution. They'd be able to lay it while keeping the old signals in temp operation. Open that with a manual switch back to waysides at Fenway. Then next stage would be putting the CBTC layer on top of the provisioned NS-north extension, and another manual switch at Haymarket. Then do the really big task of trying to non-invasively pick off subway chunks...Northeastern-Copley, Kenmore-Copley, Copley-Haymarket or something like that. It's like half a decade to work their way through one segment at a time. Can't exactly paralyze the whole subway to do it in one shot. That was enough of a disaster on the OL Haymarket-north a couple years ago that they'd never risk it downtown without taking it in small bites.

Same thing for RL. Although easier on a line that's already got "dumb" cab signals. The trains can have their old cabs sitting alongside the new computers, switch analog/digital on the fly at signal blocks, and not have their old ATO boxes ripped out until the line's all done. More seamless than the operator having to flip a switch at a stop to turn the ATO on/off like Orange had to for 20 years at Haymarket.
 
What type of CBTC system would they install on the D-Branch and when they're rebuilding the roadbed, do you think they should try to upgrade it to heavy rail?
 
So it will be coming for Boston, with Green Line and Blue Line first candidates. But they should add it to the Red Line before the Blue Line, due to the botched ATO. Perhaps if an infrastructure spending bill is passed in this Congress to help the economy, then maybe we'll see CBTC sooner than you think. Perhaps we'll also get articulated train cars as well, like the Metropolis or Movia. Movia's probably more likely.
 
Sure, it could be done, but I would guess it is very costly, especially with a different signal system in place. It would probably be a very good idea for new construction, though. As far as I know, the Red Line and it's 01800 series rolling stock are already capable of running ATO, and from what I know, CBTC is merely an upgrade from that and allows for "moving blocks" and thus the most efficient headways imaginable. The Orange Line runs on ATC, I think, which would mean it is not capable of ATO and needs a little more work, and the Blue Line, I'm not even sure. Some ancient combo of ATC and trip arms?

Brace yourself for F-Line's post, it will be the most informative info you'll find.

Aptly predicted!
 
What type of CBTC system would they install on the D-Branch and when they're rebuilding the roadbed, do you think they should try to upgrade it to heavy rail?

They're all kind of the same: bi-directional codes transmitted through the running rails and track transponders to/from onboard and dispatch computers. Main difference between light rail and heavy rail installations is that the signal blocks would be smaller because of the heavier traffic density and mixing of branches on the Green Line, and it would only be used on the D, Medford/Union branches, and subway while the B, C, and E would continue obeying road traffic signals on the surface. Other than that, it's all the same technology regardless of whether it's a light rail or heavy rail line. Other newer light rail systems have already adopted CBTC, and SEPTA has been using a variant of the current Red/Orange Line ATO in its trolley subway for close to a decade now.
 
So it will be coming for Boston, with Green Line and Blue Line first candidates. But they should add it to the Red Line before the Blue Line, due to the botched ATO. Perhaps if an infrastructure spending bill is passed in this Congress to help the economy, then maybe we'll see CBTC sooner than you think. Perhaps we'll also get articulated train cars as well, like the Metropolis or Movia. Movia's probably more likely.

Articulateds require different types of maintenance facilities; all of the T's are set up with lifts for married-pair separate cars. Would be nice to have, but rebuilding Orient Heights, Wellington, and Cabot carhouses just for that relatively minor convenience is too big a P.I.T.A. to make the net benefit wash. There'd have to be a real quantum leap in how it moves crowds around to take that plunge after 110 years of doing isolated cars. And Boston just doesn't have the crush loads NYC does to make it slam-dunk enough to take the plunge on.

If that weren't a little too far down the priority pile to bite on, with all 3 heavy rail lines operating 6-cars they would've been wise to go with 3-car married pairs two per trainset instead of three doubles in a set. The middle of those triplets is the one where the articulation is easiest. That's a more radical change maintenance-wise, but it's the easiest way to build, maintain, and operate heavy rail artics.


BTW...if you assume that Bowdoin Loop is eventually going away in favor of reversing ends at Charles MGH, I don't think there's any loops on the 3 heavy rail lines that would prohibit doing articulation with possible exception of Codman Yard at Ashmont (and that can be straightened out if it ever needed to because there's empty land around the yard's perimeter). Bowdoin's the only one that's wickedly sharper than some of NYC's tightest curves.
 
Once the Bowdoin Loop is eventually gone... SOME day... would it be relatively easy to fix the curve at State and get longer Blue Line cars? Is it worth it at some point?
 
I don't think ridership and frequency are at the point that these types of controls are needed.

For example, one of the subway lines in Toronto carries almost the entire ridership of the Red, Orange and Blue lines combined and has frequency throughout the day at roughly every 2-4 minutes. The TTC is spending $300 million to install ATO (to reduce headways to about every 85-90 seconds during rush hour) and another billion on new, articulated trains so that they can achieve a 30% increase in capacity without needing to build any additional subway lines.

Given that no line on the MBTA is close to that kind of breaking point, I think efficiencies can be found in the existing system through minor upgrades. I mean, the TTC currently runs trains at rush hour at every 2-3 minutes with existing signalling. Though, I agree, that these are options that should be looked at in the future.
 
I don't think ridership and frequency are at the point that these types of controls are needed.

For example, one of the subway lines in Toronto carries almost the entire ridership of the Red, Orange and Blue lines combined and has frequency throughout the day at roughly every 2-4 minutes. The TTC is spending $300 million to install ATO (to reduce headways to about every 85-90 seconds during rush hour) and another billion on new, articulated trains so that they can achieve a 30% increase in capacity without needing to build any additional subway lines.

Given that no line on the MBTA is close to that kind of breaking point, I think efficiencies can be found in the existing system through minor upgrades. I mean, the TTC currently runs trains at rush hour at every 2-3 minutes with existing signalling. Though, I agree, that these are options that should be looked at in the future.

On Green Line, it's pretty cut-and-dried: safety, and schedule that's getting too hard to manage with human-dispatched signaling operating line-of-sight. CBTC is the means to get the D operating end-to-end to Route 16 with 20-year projected traffic growth, the B operating delay-free in the subway with 20-year projected traffic growth, all stations safely operating with 2 trains being able to pull up simultaneously to the platform, and additional branchlines or Urban Ring feeders added in the future. But really...safety. The fatal D wreck and the non-fatal Gov't Center wreck were the wake-up calls. It's time for automatic traffic control. We're in a different legal liability era, and the NTSB isn't going to be in a grandfathering mood forever on century-old signaling just as the FRA wasn't for the RR's with its 2015 Positive Train Control mandate.

On Blue, the traffic levels merit it the least. But the mechanical trip-stop system is maintenance intensive on the surface because every switch needs its own heater for de-icing. A case where biting the bullet can save them trouble down the road, especially with the Lynn extension in (indeterminate) play potentially doubling the length of the oceanfront-running track.

On Red, it's restoring lost capacity where the old wayside system could do 3 minute headways and the 1980's ATO system over-spaces the signal blocks. That's a major constraint now at rush hour, and will get much much worse at 20-year projected growth with the dwell times at Park and DTX and exploding ridership at SS. Fixing the ATO spacing prices almost as expensive as going all-new, and the signal cabling downtown is nearing end of useful life so rather than replacing with the same they might as well do it. The price tag is scary, but so is the maintenance bill coming for keeping the existing system in state of good repair. As this is the line that'll get the biggest traffic management boost from it, that price tag will look more and more worth it when we approach 2025.

Orange I would agree doesn't really need it for foreseeable future. The ATO north of Haymarket is only 4 years old, and there are too few cars in the fleet to max the existing signal capacity nevermind a new one. No doubt this will be the last one upgraded, but if you figure the other 3 have justifiable reasons for it eventually it's not going to make much sense to keep Orange as an outlier. CBTC's got other advantages besides headways: finer-tuning of the schedule, labor savings from fewer dispatchers, enhanced safety, etc. The initial investment's tough, but there are good reasons why transit systems are taking that plunge and it gets easier to mass-deploy once an initial install is in-place on a system.
 
I have one question, why are all the subway cars in North America made of stainless steel, while the rest of the world uses aluminum? Is it some sort of safety thing?
 

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