Parcel 25 | Kneeland St | Chinatown

[xec]

When only a handful of white, status quo firms get picked for contracts, do you think we're choosing the best? Of course not.

Correct. When you pick from a handful of firms based on an established track record of how they performed on prior contracts you have no idea if you're choosing the best. But if you pick a firm based on the owner's skin color, gender, or percent of the population with the same skin color you know you're getting the best. It's guaranteed.

 

[shawn]

Hey, can we try not becoming ArchCity-Data?

 

[curcuas]

Correct. When you pick from a handful of firms based on an established track record of how they performed on prior contracts you have no idea if you're choosing the best. But if you pick a firm based on the owner's skin color, gender, or percent of the population with the same skin color you know you're getting the best. It's guaranteed.

Please examine construction costs and quality in the US vs E Asian and Europe and tell me if there is a single iota of evidence we do a good job compared to our peers. Our construction is more expensive, slower, needs more people, and is more prone to catastrophic fires.

But I don't think evidence will convince you; if you're sure that 95-100% white contracting is the optimum and any change for that is prima facie discrimination, it's clear what your actual motivations are. I'm sure you can find some other, more appropriate fora.

 

[KentXie]

Correct. When you pick from a handful of firms based on an established track record of how they performed on prior contracts you have no idea if you're choosing the best. But if you pick a firm based on the owner's skin color, gender, or percent of the population with the same skin color you know you're getting the best. It's guaranteed.

And how do businesses owned by POC establish a track record if the city continues to not offer them a contract? And Bostonians wonder why Boston still has the reputation of the most racist city in the US with pervasive ignorance like this.

Mods, feel free to move these off-topic whining posts (including mines) off this thread.

 

[W-4]

Please examine construction costs and quality in the US vs E Asian and Europe and tell me if there is a single iota of evidence we do a good job compared to our peers. Our construction is more expensive, slower, needs more people, and is more prone to catastrophic fires.

But I don't think evidence will convince you; if you're sure that 95-100% white contracting is the optimum and any change for that is prima facie discrimination, it's clear what your actual motivations are. I'm sure you can find some other, more appropriate fora.

And adding extra requirements to the contract that are immaterial to the work being done will surely reduce costs!

 

[Blackbird]

And adding extra requirements to the contract that are immaterial to the work being done will surely reduce costs!

If the requirements really are immaterial to the work, then it shouldn’t increase costs either. It just forces companies that want to be competitive in Boston to hire some female and minority workers.

 

[W-4]

If the requirements really are immaterial to the work, then it shouldn’t increase costs either. It just forces companies that want to be competitive in Boston to hire some female and minority workers.

What? You're literally reducing the supply of eligible contractors. How can that possibly not increase costs?

 

[curcuas]

What? You're literally reducing the supply of eligible contractors. How can that possibly not increase costs?

All white contractors reduce the supply of contractors and skilled labor! Look at the building trades --- lily white to a large extent b/c they are allowed to continue "apprenticeship" programs that bias union entrance towards relatives of extant union members. So the supply of new union tradesmen ends up reflecting a declining white working class population and not the much larger nonwhite working class. Tell me, does that seem like a market outcome?

It is in the City's interest to encourage the largest, most diverse supply of tradesmen and women and suppliers it can to ensure competition. Claiming that our current system in some way reflects optimal competition is ludicrous.

 

[W-4]

All white contractors reduce the supply of contractors and skilled labor! Look at the building trades --- lily white to a large extent b/c they are allowed to continue "apprenticeship" programs that bias union entrance towards relatives of extant union members. So the supply of new union tradesmen ends up reflecting a declining white working class population and not the much larger nonwhite working class. Tell me, does that seem like a market outcome?

It is in the City's interest to encourage the largest, most diverse supply of tradesmen and women and suppliers it can to ensure competition. Claiming that our current system in some way reflects optimal competition is ludicrous.

Is this supposed to relate to anything I said? I have no idea why you quoted me. I never said anything about the world being optimal. Are you just dogmatically decrying everything you don't like as not a "market outcome"?

 

[curcuas]

Is this supposed to relate to anything I said? I have no idea why you quoted me. I never said anything about the world being optimal. Are you just dogmatically decrying everything you don't like as not a "market outcome"?

This will be my last reply to this nonsense: you specifically stated that this policy would "reduce the supply of eligible contractors" and implied that would increase costs invoking supply and demand.

My point is that this naive supply and demand analysis neglects the overall supply of laborers + contractors in the first place and the ridiculous barriers against them. Hence any reasonable market analysis would be _in favor_ of the City's policy here.

Markets are good; we should have more of them. Sometimes that means taking down regulatory and quasi-regulatory barriers that generations of ill thought through policy and reactionary cultural politics have erected.

 

[Blackbird]

This will be my last reply to this nonsense

Famous last words..

What? You're literally reducing the supply of eligible contractors. How can that possibly not increase costs?

It doesn’t reduce the supply of eligible contractors so long as said contractors hire locals, women, and people of color.

(Which they should be doing anyway regulations be damned, but let’s be honest here...)

 

[W-4]

This will be my last reply to this nonsense: you specifically stated that this policy would "reduce the supply of eligible contractors" and implied that would increase costs invoking supply and demand.

My point is that this naive supply and demand analysis neglects the overall supply of laborers + contractors in the first place and the ridiculous barriers against them. Hence any reasonable market analysis would be _in favor_ of the City's policy here.

Markets are good; we should have more of them. Sometimes that means taking down regulatory and quasi-regulatory barriers that generations of ill thought through policy and reactionary cultural politics have erected.

Glad we could settle this topic derailment. We're all glad to know that things you like are markets, and things you don't like aren't markets.

 

[HenryAlan]

Please examine construction costs and quality in the US vs E Asian and Europe and tell me if there is a single iota of evidence we do a good job compared to our peers. Our construction is more expensive, slower, needs more people, and is more prone to catastrophic fires.

But I don't think evidence will convince you; if you're sure that 95-100% white contracting is the optimum and any change for that is prima facie discrimination, it's clear what your actual motivations are. I'm sure you can find some other, more appropriate fora.

When he wrote this:

the magic term that excuses any and all minority shortcomings by blaming them on majority oppression

it became quite clear that he's unreachable. In his mind, there is and always has been a level playing field, and any disparity in results is entirely due to inherent shortcomings among minority populations.

 

[xec]

Please examine construction costs and quality in the US vs E Asian and Europe and tell me if there is a single iota of evidence we do a good job compared to our peers. Our construction is more expensive (maybe because of things like ADA requirements and linkage payments?), slower (maybe because of things like mandatory environmental impact studies and community opposition?), needs more people (maybe because construction projects are required to have X number of people from this ethnic group and Y number of people from that ethnic group, so the developer pads his crews to meet the requirements or his project doesn't get approved?), and is more prone to catastrophic fires (Is it? I would have thought the opposite. It seems to me that I hear about a fire breaking out in a skyscraper in Dubai more often than in NYC or Chicago. Then there was the disastrous Grenfell Tower fire in London, but I'm not aware of anything like Grenfell happening here recently. But I don't make it a point to keep track of building fires so it's possible I missed them. What was the most recent US equivalent of Grenfell?).

I read that China recently put up a gazillion-bed hospital for COVID patients in something like 10 days, which is something that's impossible to do here. But then China probably doesn't have things like ADA requirements, linkage payments, environmental impact studies, minority subcontractor requirements, or numerous other things like obstructionist community or environmental activists filing lawsuits to slow down or kill projects. But I take it your argument is that we could build high-quality buildings as quickly and inexpensively as China if we just awarded more contracts to minority firms. Is it your position that doing so would make all the problems I just mentioned simply disappear? I find that very hard to believe, and it's going to take a lot to convince me otherwise.

Quick aside: writing the above brought back fond memories of aB's beloved former contributor Ned Flaherty and how he practically single-handedly killed Columbus Center. In China he'd probably have found himself an unwilling organ donor before two words of complaint had left his mouth. That's one good way to keep construction projects on schedule and under budget that regrettably is not likely to be adopted here.

But I don't think evidence will convince you

What evidence? You haven't presented any evidence, just made some statements that assume all problems in construction are caused by white firms. Or conversely, that all problems in construction can be eliminated by using minority firms. Please provide actual examples of projects that were similar in scale where the projects employing substantial numbers of minority firms had better performance and results than projects using mostly white firms.

if you're sure that 95-100% white contracting is the optimum

I'm not sure of that at all. It's you who's sure that some percent non-white contracting is the optimum.

if you're sure that 95-100% white contracting is the optimum and any change for that is prima facie discrimination, it's clear what your actual motivations are. I'm sure you can find some other, more appropriate fora.

I can play your stupid smear game, dude. It's clear what your actual motivations are in bringing up how much better construction costs and quality are in Asian countries, which are noted for their extremely homogeneous ethnic populations (China: 90% ethnic Han, Japan: 98% ethnic Japanese, South Korea: 96% ethnic Korean). I'm sure you can find some other, more appropriate fora for your White Nat talking points.

 

[xec]

it became quite clear that he's unreachable. In his mind, there is and always has been a level playing field, and any disparity in results is entirely due to inherent shortcomings among minority populations.

Question for you Henry: which way do you think the playing field is tilted for Obama's daughter's vis-a-vis the white children of a West Virginia coal miner?

Sasha: Daddy, why do we have to live in Martha's Vineyard? Why can't we live in a trailer park?

Barack (looking away in anger and shame): I'm sorry, baby. I know how much it means to you to live in a trailer park, but only people with white privilege are allowed to live there.

 

[shawn]

No joke guys, you're ruining this for 99% of forumers and guest readers alike.

Pleeeeease don't turn this place into the WaPo comments section? Can we possibly keep just one place free from social and political virtue signaling? I'm here for the pics of Boston. Not unsolicited opinions on America's socioeconomic woes.

 

[Blackbird]

When he wrote this:

it became quite clear that he's unreachable. In his mind, there is and always has been a level playing field, and any disparity in results is entirely due to inherent shortcomings among minority populations.

Well said!

No joke guys, you're ruining this for 99% of forumers and guest readers alike.

Pleeeeease don't turn this place into the WaPo comments section? Can we possibly keep just one place free from social and political virtue signaling? I'm here for the pics of Boston. Not unsolicited opinions on America's socioeconomic woes.

Says the guy who lives on the other side of the world (if I remember correctly) and doesn’t have to deal with this sort of thing offline too??

 

[shawn]

Says the guy who lives on the other side of the world (if I remember correctly) and doesn’t have to deal with this sort of thing offline too??

Are you inferring that a (very) visible minority resident alien who's lived in one of the most notoriously monolithic ethno-states on the planet for two decades hasn't experienced extensive systemic bias and occasional racism? How many mortgage applications have you had rejected explicitly due to your ethnicity and nationality? As a business owner, how many loan applications have you had rejected explicitly (and legally, I should emphasize) due to your ethnicity and nationality? Had many apartment applications rejected by owners who say things like, "I don't rent to foreigners"? To your face, without batting an eye? Had a hard time getting any bank to issue you a credit card, despite a decade of six-figure income and owning property?

Do police frequently stop you and ask to see your bike registration card? And do they also then not ask your Japanese wife who is riding with you to see her card?

Been stop-and-frisked by police at a crowded intersection in full business attire on your way to a client meeting at 11:00 AM? If you haven't, I can't recommend it enough; you'll especially love the crowd of Japanese gawkers, phones taking videos and all. How about on your way home from a long day's work at the intersection police box a block from your apartment, the one you've walked by hundreds of times before?

How often do taxi drivers head towards you as you hail them down, only to switch the sign from "available" to "booked" once they see your face?

Do you get complimented at least once a week by people you've never spoken to before in your life on your ability to use basic table utensils?

Don't be presumptive about what I do or don't experience. Which is besides the point. This is a thread in the Development Projects section of a skyscraper and urban architecture forum. We have another section on this very forum for people to take their socioeconomic debates.

Nobody clicks on a thread titled "Parcel 25 | Kneeland St | Chinatown" on a site dedicated to cool buildings wanting to read two pages of political chest thumping.

 

[Blackbird]

Are you inferring that a (very) visible minority resident alien who's lived in one of the most notoriously monolithic ethno-states on the planet for two decades hasn't experienced extensive systemic bias and occasional racism? How many mortgage applications have you had rejected explicitly due to your ethnicity and nationality? As a business owner, how many loan applications have you had rejected explicitly (and legally, I should emphasize) due to your ethnicity and nationality? Had many apartment applications rejected by owners who say things like, "I don't rent to foreigners"? To your face, without batting an eye? Had a hard time getting any bank to issue you a credit card, despite a decade of six-figure income and owning property?

Do police frequently stop you and ask to see your bike registration card? And do they also then not ask your Japanese wife who is riding with you to see her card?

Been stop-and-frisked by police at a crowded intersection in full business attire on your way to a client meeting at 11:00 AM? If you haven't, I can't recommend it enough; you'll especially love the crowd of Japanese gawkers, phones taking videos and all. How about on your way home from a long day's work at the intersection police box a block from your apartment, the one you've walked by hundreds of times before?

How often do taxi drivers head towards you as you hail them down, only to switch the sign from "available" to "booked" once they see your face?

Do you get complimented at least once a week by people you've never spoken to before in your life on your ability to use basic table utensils?

And yet you empathize with Mr. “the magic term that excuses any and all minority shortcomings by blaming them on majority oppression”?

This is a thread in the Development Projects section of a skyscraper and urban architecture forum. We have another section on this very forum for people to take their socioeconomic debates.

Nobody clicks on a thread titled "Parcel 25 | Kneeland St | Chinatown" on a site dedicated to cool buildings wanting to read two pages of political chest thumping.

Eh. Whenever a conversation like this lasts long enough, I operate under the assumption that it will eventually be moved or deleted.

 

[shawn]

And yet you empathize with Mr. “the magic term that excuses any and all minority shortcomings by blaming them on majority oppression”?

Show me where I empathized with that quote. Show me where I empathized with anything in this thread other than the likeminded opinions regarding the nature of this thread: pics, not politics.

Don’t put words in my mouth. You’ve already made wildly incorrect assumptions about my life experiences.