Portland Music Hall | Cumberland Avenue

[nomc]

I'm fine with/would welcome another music venue to Portland, but I hate this use for this lot. What shameful short-term thinking if this gets built where something taller should go, where housing had just been proposed. The Cumberland/Pearl view is terrible, ugly. And I question of functionality of the design - the main entrance on Myrtle being close to Merrill's primary back-of-house entrance, separate audience exit, and fairly close to the main entrance. I also question how easy - in reality - it will be to get a bus backed into the proposed bus entrance. Merrill often bags meters on the Cumberland side of Myrtle and parks buses there during shows. Even if there aren't buses there, is backing a bus in really feasible with a full street of cars? I hate that they would have to remove free short term City Hall parking spots on Myrtle to accommodate the main entrance and bus parking entrance. Same goes for Pearl - there isn't street parking to deal with, but man its going to be tight getting tractors backed in there. I think it's going to a major pain in the ass, holding up traffic, complained about by tours. Supposing you get them backed in - you have a long push to the stage with a leveler and a 5% slope on the way out. Lots of other functional issues looking closer the plans. Everything seems cramped - too many trade offs - the site may just be too small. Maybe they can technically pull it off, but will it be a good experience for the artists/production and will it be a good experience for the audience?

 

[TC_zoid]

I'm fine with/would welcome another music venue to Portland, but I hate this use for this lot. What shameful short-term thinking if this gets built where something taller should go, where housing had just been proposed. The Cumberland/Pearl view is terrible, ugly. And I question of functionality of the design - the main entrance on Myrtle being close to Merrill's primary back-of-house entrance, separate audience exit, and fairly close to the main entrance. I also question how easy - in reality - it will be to get a bus backed into the proposed bus entrance. Merrill often bags meters on the Cumberland side of Myrtle and parks buses there during shows. Even if there aren't buses there, is backing a bus in really feasible with a full street of cars? I hate that they would have to remove free short term City Hall parking spots on Myrtle to accommodate the main entrance and bus parking entrance. Same goes for Pearl - there isn't street parking to deal with, but man its going to be tight getting tractors backed in there. I think it's going to a major pain in the ass, holding up traffic, complained about by tours. Supposing you get them backed in - you have a long push to the stage with a leveler and a 5% slope on the way out. Lots of other functional issues looking closer the plans. Everything seems cramped - too many trade offs - the site may just be too small. Maybe they can technically pull it off, but will it be a good experience for the artists/production and will it be a good experience for the audience?

I agree with your assessment. Ironically, Cross Insurance Arena with its uninspiring name (insurance? get me outta here) could be the best choice for a fix. Acoustical and retractable ceiling tiles could be installed and on each side and the end (opposite the loading dock one), the entrance areas to the seats could be expanded for dynamic bars. People will hang out at bars, not counters. The food and drink scene design for all new venues now is key to creating bigger profits. I could go on and on and on with this. The current CIA design--with its largely worthless view eat/drink space in the NE part of the building--has the bathrooms next to the seating where you eat and then you clearly hear the loud whirring hand dryers. Not so appetizing, people in the bathroom. The only fix for this space is to make it more of an intimate carpeted bar with a floor to ceiling screen so that you can watch what you can't see on the main floor. I could fix all of these CIA problems (it's what I do for work) with perhaps only a few million (okay, 10 mill), but we know that will never happen. If Kaplan Thompson can build an entire school (Friends School of Portland) with only $4 million, then we can do this. I could create some realistic numbers to prove that the 10 million would become 20 in less than ten years. But we will need Live Nation. Have you seen the current schedule of events for CIA? It's sadder than sad.

 

[PlantArch]

I agree with your assessment. Ironically, Cross Insurance Arena with its uninspiring name (insurance? get me outta here) could be the best choice for a fix. Acoustical and retractable ceiling tiles could be installed and on each side and the end (opposite the loading dock one), the entrance areas to the seats could be expanded for dynamic bars. People will hang out at bars, not counters. The food and drink scene design for all new venues now is key to creating bigger profits. I could go on and on and on with this. The current CIA design--with its largely worthless view eat/drink space in the NE part of the building--has the bathrooms next to the seating where you eat and then you clearly hear the loud whirring hand dryers. Not so appetizing, people in the bathroom. The only fix for this space is to make it more of an intimate carpeted bar with a floor to ceiling screen so that you can watch what you can't see on the main floor. I could fix all of these CIA problems (it's what I do for work) with perhaps only a few million (okay, 10 mill), but we know that will never happen. If Kaplan Thompson can build an entire school (Friends School of Portland) with only $4 million, then we can do this. I could create some realistic numbers to prove that the 10 million would become 20 in less than ten years. But we will need Live Nation. Have you seen the current schedule of events for CIA? It's sadder than sad.

Lipstick on a pig.

 

[TC_zoid]

You can't beat the location of the current CIA, and the bowl is there--it just needs to be tweaked. Yes, a $100 million one would do. The roof would then be lifted higher for a reinforced concrete platform underneath for more seating and dynamic F&D, and also additional creative space for conventions. The NW corner of the building could be filled in with multi-level bars and a foot bridge to Aura. The new platform space would cantilever over Spring and Free Streets. I've done some work for the Pacers in Indianapolis, and they certainly "fixed" Gainbridge Arena (Pacers, 18,000 capacity) with a modest $360 million. This arena is perhaps the best in the country now and it doesn't have ice, like CIA does (and we MUST change the name). At one time they dug a big hole in the middle and created an Olympic sized swimming pool, then filled it in. Hoosiers are enterprising and stalwart. Don't tell them they can't do something--great people. Fixing CIA could be relatively easy, or if you hired intelligent people to do it for you. (Elkus Manfredi would be my choice, and they've won big awards for the New Balance/Celtics/Bruins complex in Brighton. They also designed USM's new dorms and student center.)

Before their renovation, they were playing basketball, etc. and then they dug a big hole for a swimming pool, then filled it in again!

 

[PWMFlyer]

You can't beat the location of the current CIA, and the bowl is there--it just needs to be tweaked. Yes, a $100 million one would do. The roof would then be lifted higher for a reinforced concrete platform underneath for more seating and dynamic F&D, and also additional creative space for conventions. The NW corner of the building could be filled in with multi-level bars and a foot bridge to Aura. The new platform space would cantilever over Spring and Free Streets. I've done some work for the Pacers in Indianapolis, and they certainly "fixed" Gainbridge Arena (Pacers, 18,000 capacity) with a modest $360 million. This arena is perhaps the best in the country now and it doesn't have ice, like CIA does (and we MUST change the name). At one time they dug a big hole in the middle and created an Olympic sized swimming pool, then filled it in. Hoosiers are enterprising and stalwart. Don't tell them they can't do something--great people. Fixing CIA could be relatively easy, or if you hired intelligent people to do it for you. (Elkus Manfredi would be my choice, and they've won big awards for the New Balance/Celtics/Bruins complex in Brighton. They also designed USM's new dorms and student center.)

Before their renovation, they were playing basketball, etc. and then they dug a big hole for a swimming pool, then filled it in again!

View attachment 63516

The roof should have been lifted several years ago. Show me the money!! where is the money going to come from? The county needs to get rid of the arena where the county commissioners /Arena trustees have no idea how to run a venue. The Oak group is doing the best they can under the current constraints. I have worked at the CCCC for over 20+ years and the options were endless, but with the county in charge, our hands are tied. Everything is a quick fix or a knee jerk response. You might notice the metal braces going up the building on both sides. This was to stop the building from coming apart. Just like the Expo with minimal Maint. you were able to put your hand through the supporting structure. The city had the chance with the Noyes Foundation for a 10K arena. We looked at closing Spring and Center for the expansion and use this area for loading and seating expansion, due to city politics, the fire dept put the brakes on that one. It's frustrating ... I do say we are in a better financial position than the SNHU Arena.

 

[TC_zoid]

If CIA's structural integrity has been compromised, then it needs to be torn down. I would find a buyer for the land, one who would agree to build a new arena. They would then rent it out to the county and allow a small share in some of the F&D revenue. The reason for that is obvious. Now, the county/city has an incentive to promote it, to make more money. That's how they do film financing, with multiple partners. Everyone is incentivized to see it become a success. F&D revenue with dynamic spaces, today, can be substantial (I've got stories). Mainers and nearly everyone else today must eat and drink like old Rome--the event is almost secondary (it was their downfall). Portland has numerous venue spaces, and all are underperforming. It's the mindset of pay the least to get something that works. But does it really, work? It's like a cheap car. You drive around in something that works, but it's dull, uncomfortable, makes you feel bad, and soon will break down. But we always have Boston, a mere 90-minute drive away. Go walk around the New Balance facility, or TD Garden now, and it's ridiculously and embarrassingly better than anything in the Portland area. Boston is ten times larger than Portland in population. But in public facilities like the aforementioned, it's more like a hundred, or more.

 

[DanielPWM19]

If CIA's structural integrity has been compromised, then it needs to be torn down. I would find a buyer for the land, one who would agree to build a new arena. They would then rent it out to the county and allow a small share in some of the F&D revenue. The reason for that is obvious. Now, the county/city has an incentive to promote it, to make more money. That's how they do film financing, with multiple partners. Everyone is incentivized to see it become a success. F&D revenue with dynamic spaces, today, can be substantial (I've got stories). Mainers and nearly everyone else today must eat and drink like old Rome--the event is almost secondary (it was their downfall). Portland has numerous venue spaces, and all are underperforming. It's the mindset of pay the least to get something that works. But does it really, work? It's like a cheap car. You drive around in something that works, but it's dull, uncomfortable, makes you feel bad, and soon will break down. But we always have Boston, a mere 90-minute drive away. Go walk around the New Balance facility, or TD Garden now, and it's ridiculously and embarrassingly better than anything in the Portland area. Boston is ten times larger than Portland in population. But in public facilities like the aforementioned, it's more like a hundred, or more.

I'd agree with this 1000 %

In addition to tearing down CIA, take down the parking garage and the Maine Health Building.

This will clear the whole strip from Oak Street to Center Street.

Build a new parking garage and hotel at the Maine Health location and expand for a longer and taller replacement for the CIA. The strip of land is "slim", but if they expanded toward Oak Street, then the whole thing could be a gem.

 

[PWMFlyer]

I would love to have a brand new facility. Is it going to happen in my lifetime? no.
Can I dream yes, the forces against a new arena are strong
The city had its chance and blew it with private money. So no one is going to risk it in this city.
The civic center lot is owned by the County, Garage owned by the city but was owned by the county and was stupid to sell it to the city.
Then there is the Maine Health building.
Remember, acts love outdoor venues during Spring thru the fall. plus a lot of factors go into attracting music, theatre, etc. Most venues go dark spring into fall.
A venue owned by a national promotor has a better chance than a local one. aka Live Nation. a new venue is not cheap, 200+ million. a 10,000 seat venue for concerts would work for this area,, but you would have to get concerts that will fill those seats. Think revenue. Most bands demand large amounts of money up front to play in a venue, if you don't sell the tickets, then the promoter makes no money. For example, SNHU arena aka Verizon Wireless Arena was built in 2001 as a 10k arena for a area pop of 1 million. plus The arena did great, then it lost its main tenant the Monarchs. Plus it attracted acts for several years. Now, the building sits empty 75% of the time. ASM Global runs the arena.
We are going to be in a status Quo for a long time unless something drastic circumstances happen as someone buys the whole block with a ton of cash, but its great to dream!!!!

 

[TC_zoid]

I'd agree with this 1000 %

In addition to tearing down CIA, take down the parking garage and the Maine Health Building.

This will clear the whole strip from Oak Street to Center Street.

Build a new parking garage and hotel at the Maine Health location and expand for a longer and taller replacement for the CIA. The strip of land is "slim", but if they expanded toward Oak Street, then the whole thing could be a gem.

Amen, brother. Cities with intelligent foresight do it right. True, it's a tough cost pill to swallow, but after, well worth it. Portland will continue to grow with its dynamic neighbor to the south (Boston, a 90 min drive) thriving and positioned to become the most important city in the world due to its education and tech offerings. Go walk around Cambridge near MIT now, then The Seaport District before you argue this (WOW). But my ideal scenario would include Fitzpatrick Stadium as an indoor facility with 32,000 seats. If Bangor can see sold out concerts with 16,000 people, than surely Portland and it's MUCH larger population with a winter-time draw from Boston (5 million metro) only 90 minutes away, could become a sound revenue model for concerts, etc. In all of New England and touching NYC, for 6 months of the year the biggest capacity indoor venue is no more than 19,500 (MSG). Live Nation would gladly add a tour date connected to Boston, as Portland would then be nearly double the capacity for the second performance date. Remember, many big cities have outlying stadiums that take at least an hour (or more) to get to. Indianapolis has an arena that seats 18,000, but then indoor Lucas Oil Field seats 70,000! (Indy has a 4x bigger metro pop. than Portland). We need to stop thinking in such a provincial manner. Portland is no longer the podunk town it used to be. And it's not that far away from NYC, either. I took a flight from the Jetport to Philly last year and the flight time was 55 minutes.

 

[Seanflynn78]

I would not be surprised in 10-20 years a 10-13k seat arena is built in South Portland area- close to route 1 and I-95. Less head aches and larger parcels (5 acres or more) are available
It's a shame the midtown property is not looked at. But the NIMBYs from NYC and Boston will lose their minds. Ooh the traffic!

 

[TC_zoid]

I would not be surprised in 10-20 years a 10-13k seat arena is built in South Portland area- close to route 1 and I-95. Less head aches and larger parcels (5 acres or more) are available
It's a shame the midtown property is not looked at. But the NIMBYs from NYC and Boston will lose their minds. Ooh the traffic!

In 20 years Portland will be a completely different city. Dramatically different ethnic birth rate and lifestyle changes will see ice hockey and football gone, so the typical arena build mindset of today will be out of style. Soccer is in, and will continue to increase in popularity. And Maine's cold climate will dictate an indoor facility for this relatively new sport. Breweries will all but disappear, and food preferences will continue to fragment with many more international choices. In England and France, the country's populace will fall largely under Islamic styles and rule--though with a kind of "Islamic light" result--due to their current dramatic birth rate switch. The English/Irish/French/Italian heritage idea in Maine will become a minority. In Italy, new immigration (and outgoing youth) will see their traditional Italian foods as a trickle of what it used to be. And in Maine, those Monster Truck rallies and the Maine Mariners and pizza and ice cream offerings will exist only as a memory. I'm not judging here, but simply pointing out current behavior preferences and birth and resettlement metrics, and so what will come from it if nothing changes. And so why would it change? It won't.

 

[Fitch Bronson]

In 20 years Portland will be a completely different city. Dramatically different ethnic birth rate and lifestyle changes will see ice hockey and football gone, so the typical arena build mindset of today will be out of style. Soccer is in, and will continue to increase in popularity. And Maine's cold climate will dictate an indoor facility for this relatively new sport. Breweries will all but disappear, and food preferences will continue to fragment with many more international choices. In England and France, the country's populace will fall largely under Islamic styles and rule--though with a kind of "Islamic light" result--due to their current dramatic birth rate switch. The English/Irish/French/Italian heritage idea in Maine will become a minority. In Italy, new immigration (and outgoing youth) will see their traditional Italian foods as a trickle of what it used to be. And in Maine, those Monster Truck rallies and the Maine Mariners and pizza and ice cream offerings will exist only as a memory. I'm not judging here, but simply pointing out current behavior preferences and birth and resettlement metrics, and so what will come from it if nothing changes. And so why would it change? It won't.

I'm sorry, but this is absurd, and walks right up to the edge of alt-right replacement theory rhetoric. Birth rates are down among all demographic subsets across the world. It's a byproduct of education and technology. Do you really think a more diverse Maine is one that will replace fiddleheads, ice cream, lobster, and flannel with burkas and mosques? This is looney tunes stuff. I thought this was a real estate discussion board?

 

[PWMFlyer]

OVG which manages the CCCC, is going to invest $20 million into the Hartford CC, now my memory might be off, I think the previous management(Spectacor) invested $o into the arena, The Hartford CC is a state owned facility. A new naming rights contract $850k initial investment to $2.4 million.

Major CT arena gets new name. With it comes big name recognition for a local business.

The former Hartford Civic Center will shed its XL Center name — the identity of the 16,000-seat arena since 2007 — effective immediately, as part of a multi-year naming rights agreement with a Holy…

www.courant.com

 

[TC_zoid]

I'm sorry, but this is absurd, and walks right up to the edge of alt-right replacement theory rhetoric. Birth rates are down among all demographic subsets across the world. It's a byproduct of education and technology. Do you really think a more diverse Maine is one that will replace fiddleheads, ice cream, lobster, and flannel with burkas and mosques? This is looney tunes stuff. I thought this was a real estate discussion board?

That is grossly incorrect. Islamic and Hispanic birth rates are still strong, and the greatest among peoples in the world now. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, am I? I'm just pointing out fact. People change culture, and culture changes architecture, of which can enhance or reduce lifestyles. How old are you? In your 70's? Fitch was a name given to a male in the 1940s or 50s. The country with the weakest birth rate now is South Korea, with only a 4% replacement 2 generations down the line. Japan is another country with a low birth rate. Their only real ethnic group are Filipinos (I've worked in Japan for a bit). And fiddleheads? What are you, a gnome from middle earth? Portland today is by far more diverse than it was 20 years ago--night and day. Diversity affects cultural and behavioral trends, and yes, architectural builds. A "woke crowd" in Boston now wants to raze city hall, an example of the Brutalism style in architecture--it's offensive. Portland in 20 years will be much different than it is today. Own it. I'm just sayin', that's all.