MBTA Fare System (Charlie, AFC 2.0, Zone, Discounts)

F-Line to Dudley said:
Enclosed spaces are a pain-in-the-ass for RR operations. Even in a fully electrified future you want considerations for a diesel rescue loco or diesel service substitution for overhead wire maintenance to be able to access the station. We don't want a situation where complex and draconian operating rules are required like in Grand Central or Penn Station to get even *one* rescue or work-shift diesel into the platform space. That'll be required for NSRL by necessity, but there's no reason to breach that subject beforehand. Surface South Station will always have to be open to the elements.

Besides, diesel stuff is going to continue using South Station even if regular electric service comes to all Commuter Rail lines. Cape Flyer will malinger as diesel until we muster up enough daily commuter service to Hyannis to justify electric. A future Newport Flyer will probably always be diesel...and so on.
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Not to mention Amtrak Lake Shore Limiteds and Inland Regionals - my understanding is that even a Dual Mode Airo running on the Inland is likely to pull into South Station in Diesel mode, as the Worcester Line tracks aren't wired up at Back Bay, only the final ½ mile in the S. Station terminal district. (Assuming the Airo has to swap at a stop? I haven't seen anything to indicate it can do it in motion.)
 
Stlin said:
Not to mention Amtrak Lake Shore Limiteds and Inland Regionals - my understanding is that even a Dual Mode Airo running on the Inland is likely to pull into South Station in Diesel mode, as the Worcester Line tracks aren't wired up at Back Bay, only the final ½ mile in the S. Station terminal district. (Assuming the Airo has to swap at a stop? I haven't seen anything to indicate it can do it in motion.)
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Assuming an electrified Purple Line, they'd presumably switch to E-mode at Worcester Union Station. But power-switching is hardly flawless. Grand Central and Penn deal with that on a weekly basis with the fast-aging Genesis P32AC-DM dual-modes not switching when they're supposed to switch and holding trains up by the tunnel mouths while they wait for the station vent fans to kick in, the designated emergency diesel specialty platforms to be cleared for reassignment, and permission to proceed after an often lengthy delay. Amtrak's definitely gonna demand the right to run to South Station in diesel mode at any time for any reason so they don't have to deal with regulatory complications and the painful schedule delays associated with them.

Hell, the T doesn't even hold to a hard-and-fast rule on diesels facing forward into the terminals. They face away from Boston in normal practice because the engine hot-start plugins at each of the layover yards is purposefully sited on the away-from-Boston facing end of the yards. But contingencies allow for loco-forward at any time (and the Cape Flyer usually runs with double-ended locos because of breakdown liability fine print on the out-of-district running miles). This past week they've been doing a LOT of forward-running inbounds as rescues and substitutions for mechanical breakdowns in this weather hastily flip a lot of running sets in the opposite direction.

It's never gonna make sense to fully enclose the surface terminals. Anything on the platform is always going to need to be all-weather infrastructure, even in the current semi-enclosed state of SS.
 
MjolnirMan said:
Without electrification of the entire southern commuter rail network, all of the MBTA engines run on diesel. While they point the engines towards the far end of the platforms and have industrial ventilation fans under the bus terminal, this would lead to a smelly environment at best and a hazardous one at worst. Having said that, electrification should have been completed years ago as part of a regional rail transformation as commuter habits changed post-COVID, and it doesn't appear any aspect of the redesign was created with possible future enclosing in mind.
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The trains and platforms could remain open air while still enclosing the area under the new South Station Tower. That would be everything under the arches, plus the a lot of the path areas going out to Atlantic Avenue and Summer Street. Connected to the existing indoor space, that would create a massive new indoor space. That would also allow for rearranging the fare gates so there can be some indoor waiting space between the fare gates and the platforms, like at North Station.
 
Seems like an enhanced pergola around the faregates would be sufficient if the issue is wind-driven snow in a big atrium like space
 
ritchiew said:
The trains and platforms could remain open air while still enclosing the area under the new South Station Tower. That would be everything under the arches, plus the a lot of the path areas going out to Atlantic Avenue and Summer Street. Connected to the existing indoor space, that would create a massive new indoor space. That would also allow for rearranging the fare gates so there can be some indoor waiting space between the fare gates and the platforms, like at North Station.
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Yes, if the archways were hypothetically filled in at both ends (Atlantic and Summer entrances), you could install walls and platform doors where the new bus terminal extends to (i.e. below the track number sign location, just after the escalators/elevators from the archway to the far end of the bus depot), similar to how North Station opens out to the platform ends. This could also expand the station area for more seating, waiting area, vendor booths, etc. without causing an issue for the train ventilation. It will also never happen.
 
OldColony said:
As noted in the MBTA Construction Projects thread, major construction work is slated to start soon on the renovation of Back Bay station. Has the MBTA announced where the commuter rail fare gates will be set up?
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The plans just linked over in the MBTA Construction Projects thread do NOT show the CR fare gates.

mass.streetsblog.org

Construction Is Underway On Back Bay Station Makeover - Streetsblog Massachusetts

Developers are promising to deliver “a first-class transit hub.”
mass.streetsblog.org mass.streetsblog.org
 
I'm gonna drop the circa 2023 plans, which do show the fare gates - this presentation is presumably still the project plan, and is also linked in the streetsblog article.
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a99d1464-83de-4000-814c-591aeff8a891-1_all_1118.jpg

static1.squarespace.com/static/647789bd446551789f297c4b/t/64ad5de52caf030dbe9a95cf/1689083367807/4.12.23%2BBBS%2BConcourse%2BRenovation%2BKick%2BOff%2B-%2BWebsite.pdf
 
Stlin said:
I'm gonna drop the circa 2023 plans, which do show the fare gates - this presentation is presumably still the project plan, and is also linked in the streetsblog article.
View attachment 70524View attachment 70525
static1.squarespace.com/static/647789bd446551789f297c4b/t/64ad5de52caf030dbe9a95cf/1689083367807/4.12.23%2BBBS%2BConcourse%2BRenovation%2BKick%2BOff%2B-%2BWebsite.pdf
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Interesting that the elevator access to tracks 1 & 3 (down near Clarendon Street) does not appear to get fare control gates.
 
JeffDowntown said:
Interesting that the elevator access to tracks 1 & 3 (down near Clarendon Street) does not appear to get fare control gates.
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That set of tracks has a stairway exit across Clarendon outside Copley Place too, right? Can't imagine them putting a fare gate on that. Maybe something at track level?
 
MjolnirMan said:
That set of tracks has a stairway exit across Clarendon outside Copley Place too, right? Can't imagine them putting a fare gate on that. Maybe something at track level?
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Those exits have one way doors, so there is no way to enter through the Clarendon stairwells.

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HenryAlan said:
Those exits have one way doors, so there is no way to enter through the Clarendon stairwells.
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Got my streets mixed up - was thinking of Dartmouth:
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You could probably retrofit the Clarendon exit into one with fare gates since it's covered, but this one, probably not.
 
JeffDowntown said:
Fare gates are used for scan out too, to validate inbound fare. Not just for scan in.
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Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I wonder if there is room to place gates on the platform just before the stair case? That could also address the issue of people who use the emergency exits on Berkeley St. I don't know how common that is, but when I was a regular rider, I mostly entered and exited from those gates, despite all the warning signs indicating such use was forbidden.
 
HenryAlan said:
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I wonder if there is room to place gates on the platform just before the stair case? That could also address the issue of people who use the emergency exits on Berkeley St. I don't know how common that is, but when I was a regular rider, I mostly entered and exited from those gates, despite all the warning signs indicating such use was forbidden.
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Until relatively recently that was just an exit, not an emergency exit. It was sketchy as hell, but the Berkeley St doors would normally just be propped open most of the time providing an unencumbered covered walkway free and clear that went all there from Dalton St: Enter the Sheraton opposite Bukowski, pass through the Prudential Center, over the Huntington Ave footbridge and into Copley Place, to Back Bay Station via the Dartmouth St underpass, up to the main waiting room and then down to the platforms and out the Berkeley St exit. It's still possible to do this and come up a block short at Columbus Ave and Clarendon St. If anything policy should promote walking routes like this, not discourage them (though the fare gates might gum this option up for a lot of people).
 
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