Orange Line Extension to Roslindale/West Roxbury

[FK4]

If Needham went full Orange (and Green on the other end), wouldn't there be enough room in the ROW to fit essentially a "return" bus route to Forest Hills? So buses could drop off at Rozzie Square OL station, then entire this bus lane in the ROW and go direct/express to Forest Hill skipping Washington St (and keeping passengers). Once at Forest Hill they could go back out normal routes and down Washington St if needed (for those not just starting/terminating at the Square).

Others probably could answer this more analytically but I don’t really see the benefit there. You’re gonna lose time tracking across the square (yes, only a little time, but the journey from Washington up to the station has many ped crossings and is slow), and you’re gonna skip the last leg that actually gets a lot of ridership in my experience (and is a lower income district anyway) — South, Archdale, all those stops). It just doesn’t really seem worth it to me.

I think the benefit is mostly to the west roxbury riders, coming in on the 37 and other lines and passing by the commuter rail station anyway via Corinth/South/Belgrade. And of course a full OL conversation probably leads to some ppl on those routes getting off sooner at the W Rox commuter rail stations if those are now OL.

Last aspect is of course let’s not forget that removing needham line frees up more space on the SWC to beef up frequencies on the other purple lines, which could serve among other people some folks who’d otherwise be on the 34E from Walpole and Norwood.

 

[Tallguy]

Another example of a rails-to-trail screwing up the chances of a transit line extension.

Not so. There is space(barely) for 2 tracks and a walkway

 

[Tallguy]

Plus there is so much development on Needham Ave of apartment dwellers that WILL want service there

 

[Highwayguy]

Others probably could answer this more analytically but I don’t really see the benefit there. You’re gonna lose time tracking across the square (yes, only a little time, but the journey from Washington up to the station has many ped crossings and is slow), and you’re gonna skip the last leg that actually gets a lot of ridership in my experience (and is a lower income district anyway) — South, Archdale, all those stops). It just doesn’t really seem worth it to me.

I think the benefit is mostly to the west roxbury riders, coming in on the 37 and other lines and passing by the commuter rail station anyway via Corinth/South/Belgrade. And of course a full OL conversation probably leads to some ppl on those routes getting off sooner at the W Rox commuter rail stations if those are now OL.

Last aspect is of course let’s not forget that removing needham line frees up more space on the SWC to beef up frequencies on the other purple lines, which could serve among other people some folks who’d otherwise be on the 34E from Walpole and Norwood.

This inspired a silly idea:

Lets say for whatever short-sighted fiscal/ political reasons, GLX to Needham can’t happen concurrent with an OLX to VFW Parkway.

Whats stopping a busway conversion of the Needham tail past VFW? Even if one way alternating signals are needed at every over/under bridge a la Chelsea Silver Line, shouldn’t cause issue even at 5 min headways.

Imperfect: Yes
Constructable: Appears so

If the only other choice is a +1 to Roslindale Village, retaining Needham CR:

(A genuine) Why not???

 

[Scalziand]

Not even sure you'd need signals, since it's a 2 track ROW.

 

[FK4]

This inspired a silly idea:

Lets say for whatever short-sighted fiscal/ political reasons, GLX to Needham can’t happen concurrent with an OLX to VFW Parkway.

Whats stopping a busway conversion of the Needham tail past VFW? Even if one way alternating signals are needed at every over/under bridge a la Chelsea Silver Line, shouldn’t cause issue even at 5 min headways.

Imperfect: Yes
Constructable: Appears so

If the only other choice is a +1 to Roslindale Village, retaining Needham CR:

(A genuine) Why not???

Ridership would probably drop to zero. I can’t imagine anyone who takes the commuter rail accepting a bus transfer to an unreliable green line

 

[bakgwailo]

Others probably could answer this more analytically but I don’t really see the benefit there. You’re gonna lose time tracking across the square (yes, only a little time, but the journey from Washington up to the station has many ped crossings and is slow), and you’re gonna skip the last leg that actually gets a lot of ridership in my experience (and is a lower income district anyway) — South, Archdale, all those stops). It just doesn’t really seem worth it to me.

I think the benefit is mostly to the west roxbury riders, coming in on the 37 and other lines and passing by the commuter rail station anyway via Corinth/South/Belgrade. And of course a full OL conversation probably leads to some ppl on those routes getting off sooner at the W Rox commuter rail stations if those are now OL.

Last aspect is of course let’s not forget that removing needham line frees up more space on the SWC to beef up frequencies on the other purple lines, which could serve among other people some folks who’d otherwise be on the 34E from Walpole and Norwood.

I was thinking it would be more for the routes like the 37 that would terminate at the Square - for ops give it a direct route back and forth to Forest hills so you don't need to get stuck in Washington St or have a big bus facility/layover in the Square, and, could keep it passenger based for those still wanting to catch the Commuter Rail at Forest Hills instead of the OL in the Square. There would still be Local buses going to Forest Hills on Washington St.

 

[jklo]

Ridership would probably drop to zero. I can’t imagine anyone who takes the commuter rail accepting a bus transfer to an unreliable green line

And even if they did upgrade the tracks, I imagine Needham users would be upset over it being slower to BB and SS.

I'd still consider doing it. Figure a lot would just drive to Dedham Corp Center or Route 128.

 

[Jahvon09]

There was talk about extending the Blue Line to Lynn. Looks like that one is going nowhere.

 

[FK4]

I was thinking it would be more for the routes like the 37 that would terminate at the Square - for ops give it a direct route back and forth to Forest hills so you don't need to get stuck in Washington St or have a big bus facility/layover in the Square, and, could keep it passenger based for those still wanting to catch the Commuter Rail at Forest Hills instead of the OL in the Square. There would still be Local buses going to Forest Hills on Washington St.

Yeah, 35, 36, 37 and 51 all would fit that, but it’s still a lot of buses and not a space that’s great for a bus terminus. It really makes it clear how much the whole local network would benefit from just having all of WR covered by the orange line and then having some feeder routes for it

 

[FK4]

Yeah, 35, 36, 37 and 51 all would fit that, but it’s still a lot of buses and not a space that’s great for a bus terminus. It really makes it clear how much the whole local network would benefit from just having all of WR covered by the orange line and then having some feeder routes for it

Adding in, is there a map somewhere in transit pitches anyone’s made showing bus reconfig options with OLX to Roslindale and OLX to WR?

 

[Highwayguy]

Ridership would probably drop to zero. I can’t imagine anyone who takes the commuter rail accepting a bus transfer to an unreliable green line

Agree.
But to clarify, Im picturing a scenario where, *for reasons,* the ROW between Needham Heights-Newton Highlands cant be reactivated as a GL branch concurrent with an OL extension.
So the buses would connect at a VFW OL terminus.

Obviously a janky busway is suboptimal for those West of the Charles. That said, would <<<hourly service to Needham (while preserving Ruggles access), OL to VFW, and booting Needham out of the NEC be viable/preferable to a +1 OL poke to Roslindale Village that retains Needham CR?

 

[jklo]

That said, would <<<hourly service to Needham (while preserving Ruggles access), OL to VFW, and booting Needham out of the NEC be viable/preferable to a +1 OL poke to Roslindale Village that retains Needham CR?

Hourly service is what Needham gets now... before the pandemic it was 5 trains in 3 hours though at Peak. If it was possible to just run one OL train into Needham and then back out, that might be enough. Course they would still complain about the time taken.

 

[Charlie_mta]

How about a two track OLX to the Needham Junction station, and end it there, and eliminate the CR. This would avoid having to build new grade separations, except a minor one at the golf course on the east side of Needham. Also build a paved trail on the RR row from Needham Heights station to Needham Junction.

 

[TheRatmeister]

How about a two track OLX to the Needham Junction station, and end it there, and eliminate the CR. This would avoid having to build new grade separations, except a minor one at the golf course on the east side of Needham. Also build a paved trail on the RR row from Needham Heights station to Needham Junction.

If you can get to Needham Center, which might only add one extra grade separation, then I can get behind that.

But I'm not sure that was ever the hard part, getting across the wetlands was.

How much of a concern is yard space with a longer OL extension? For Roslindale Sq obviously it's a non-issue, for VFW Pkwy I'm guessing it's probably fine? To Needham is where I personally start to get slightly worried although that's admittedly vibes rather than facts based. If there isn't enough space at Wellington then I think the options for new yards are limited to Millennium Park (well, opposite it) or past Needham Heights.

 

[Koopzilla24]

If you can get to Needham Center, which might only add one extra grade separation, then I can get behind that.

But I'm not sure that was ever the hard part, getting across the wetlands was.

How much of a concern is yard space with a longer OL extension? For Roslindale Sq obviously it's a non-issue, for VFW Pkwy I'm guessing it's probably fine? To Needham is where I personally start to get slightly worried although that's admittedly vibes rather than facts based. If there isn't enough space at Wellington then I think the options for new yards are limited to Millennium Park (well, opposite it) or past Needham Heights.

I don't think the yard space is much of an issue since there's ample space at the current Forest Hills yard area if it takes over the truck pad. Potentially double the current storage capacity there. If a new yard were indeed needed, I'd say you could put it down the former Woonsocket Branch at Needham Junction. Could tap into the power substation anyway for the extension and yard power, plus that bridge and trackage over the bridge was refurbished only 15 years ago for some reason.

 

[Charlie_mta]

I don't think the yard space is much of an issue since there's ample space at the current Forest Hills yard area if it takes over the truck pad. Potentially double the current storage capacity there. If a new yard were indeed needed, I'd say you could put it down the former Woonsocket Branch at Needham Junction. Could tap into the power substation anyway for the extension and yard power, plus that bridge and trackage over the bridge was refurbished only 15 years ago for some reason.

That's what I was thinking about there being enough space at Needham Junction for a yard.

 

[bigeman312]

If I'm following this correctly, this would leave the Upper Busway at Forest Hills used only by:

• The 35, 36, 37, 38, and 39 in the OL + 1
• The 38 and 39 in the full OLX scenario

It would also make Rozzie Square the terminus for:

• The 14, 30, 34, 34E, 40, 50, and 51 in the OL+1
  • Plus served by the 35/36/37
• The 14, 30, 34, 34E, 40, 42, 50, and 51 in the full OLX

I'm with this in spirit, but I don't think anyone really wants a Rozzie Square busway designed to handle this much layover. You'd essentially need to convert the entirety of both CR lots at Roslindale Village to bus facilities. The Forest Hills Upper Busway is a great place for this sort of layover; Roslindale Village is not.

In the full OLX scenario, perhaps these bus termini could be spread out somewhat across the more distal stations of the OLX? Maybe something like:

• Run the 34, 34E, 40, and 50 down W Roxbury Parkway from Washington and terminate them in a layover at the new Highland in the lot next to Roche Brothers?
• End the 34 and 34E at a new VFW / Millennium Park OL station, accessed by VFW Parkway?

A full-full GLX to Needham would also decrease need for the 59.


At the end of the day what has actually gotten the green light here is $100k for a study of a project that would cost hundreds of millions. That's like putting down a hundred bucks for a Ferrari. This is still nowhere even remotely close to a "go."

With respect to OLX vs Red-Blue, I think there's a potential case that OLX would actually get us better bang-for-the-buck. Hence, a study is a good first step. Nothing against Red-Blue, but it was more appealing in the pre-COVID world where the core was at capacity.

I know I’m late to the discussion, but here’s how I’d see it in a Rozzie-only Orange Line extension:

* 30 truncated Mattapan - Roslindale
* 35 truncated Dedham Mall - Roslindale
* 36 truncated Dedham Mall - Roslindale via West Roxbury VA
* 37 eliminated (taken partially over by a 52 re-route)
* 38 re-routed to Jackson
* 51 truncated Reservoir - Roslindale

Upper busway routes: 34, 34E, 39, 40, 50

 

[Jahvon09]

What's happening with this? Any further talks on it?