Copley Square Revamp | Back Bay

[Justbuildit]

Wow that's grim. The one to the left is pretty miserable too, and it has the 711 on Dartmouth that brings in a ton of people sitting around and throwing trash on the ground. Would love to replace that thing with something bright and new

 

[as02155]

...the previous version looked much more at home in its environment than this one does to me.

What I read is that you dislike salmon colored sidewalks?

 

[BronsonShore]

From an urbanist standpoint there is absolutely nothing wrong with the buildings north of Copley and any redevelopment of those plots would almost certainly result in fewer storefronts and less variety.

So, no, we should not hope to actively make that block worse.

Wow that's grim. The one to the left is pretty miserable too, and it has the 711 on Dartmouth that brings in a ton of people sitting around and throwing trash on the ground. Would love to replace that thing with something bright and new

Oh no! People sitting around in a city! How horrible! We must fix that ASAP!

 

[JeffDowntown]

From an urbanist standpoint there is absolutely nothing wrong with the buildings north of Copley and any redevelopment of those plots would almost certainly result in fewer storefronts and less variety.

So, no, we should not hope to actively make that block worse.



Oh no! People sitting around in a city! How horrible! We must fix that ASAP!

There is nothing wrong with the buildings or usage per see, but the facades on the ones nearest Dartmouth could certainly use a refresh. Ugly as sin, particularly the green one.

 

[Justbuildit]

Oh no! People sitting around in a city! How horrible! We must fix that ASAP!

It’s not people sitting around in a city. It’s an enclave full of trash that sits there and is never cleaned up because 7/11 chooses to do nothing to improve the streetscape of their storefront. I love people sitting around, note my support for Copley. I hate when there are piles of trash on the sidewalk. I think that was clear in my comment and your objection is disingenuous at best.

 

[BronsonShore]

It’s not people sitting around in a city. It’s an enclave full of trash that sits there and is never cleaned up because 7/11 chooses to do nothing to improve the streetscape of their storefront. I love people sitting around, note my support for Copley. I hate when there are piles of trash on the sidewalk. I think that was clear in my comment and your objection is disingenuous at best.

Redevelopment into something "bright and new" is not the solution to 7/11 not cleaning up their mess.

 

[Justbuildit]

The building is grim and dark and does not do justice to the Copley street front, hence it should be redeveloped into something bright and new (the prime point that was on topic). It's not historic and sits on a very prominent corner. The 7/11 also happens to be a trash pile, which is bad on its own merits. Both things should change.

 

[ritchiew]

lol. I've been through Copley the past couple mornings, and yesterday, as soon I came up from the Green Line, there were a couple of cars in some prolonged honking match on Boylston. Just to set the mood, I guess.*

But other than that, the square really does seems pretty nice. It was busy. There's a giant soccer ball set up and a bunch of Scotland fans were hanging out and getting pictures. Roundhead Brewing is starting to set up a beer garden a few nights a week, so there will actually be food and drink in the park. I hope someone here can check it out, snap some pictures, or give a report.

* Just to be clear, it's not always so bad. I've been there on weekend mornings and it's very pleasantly quiet. I like hearing that other people are there at night and it's nice. But the park is literally at a highway onramp, and that surrounding environment can be unpleasant at times.

 

[kz1000ps]

 

[chrisbrat]

On a "normal" summer/spring/fall day: B+, On a market or other "event" day: A-, on a winter day: we'll see (probably not so great, but that's not really the plaza's fault).

That stretch of Dartmouth needs to go, but all in all -- a pretty successful refresh. I'm a fan.

 

[kz1000ps]

OK here’s the rest of my photos and I've now gathered my thoughts...

So this is the first time I’ve been to Copley Square in at least a few years and definitely the first time seeing it post-renovation. I’ve read all the scuttlebutt about the hardscape and while I fully agree that the color and pixelated plank pattern aren’t up to par with this important space (especially the pixelation thing… it’s so overused and hacky at this point) it isn’t as bad as some pictures have made it out to be. Rather, what I found was a park at noon lunch rush on a warm summer day being utilized basically as intended, and the open plaza was seeing just as much activation as any other part.

The raised grove with the legacy London Planes is probably the most immediately appealing and best used, especially at lunch time, and those trees went a long way to visually balancing out hardscape versus soft. My shots are all being posted in chronological order and as you can see above I was natually drawn there right away… if there was a seat open I probably would’ve plopped down for a few minutes. And from there, the soccer ball was the real star of attention, which as it turned out made it easy to spot the international/World Cup tourists since seemingly every one of them was stopping there to take a picture.

The fountain is basically unchanged and had about as much activity as I’d expect for a random July afternoon

I showed up with major questions about the hardscape, but what proved to be most perplexing was the grass lawn and how literally NOBODY was using it. I dare any of you to go through all 30 of my photos and find even ONE person on it in any capacity, and no I’m not being selective with my shots and I was there for a solid 30 minutes

I wonder how much the midday sun is to blame? Is it too small to be inviting to sunbathers or picnic-ers? Too deferential to Trinity Church? Too pretty to get its hair mussed up?

Lastly I fully agree that Dartmouth Street as an active traffic sewer needs to disappear yesterday. There’s so much underutilized space here, between the big plaza in front of the BPL to the big asphalt stretch of Darmouth to the big new plaza of Copley Sq. Remove the street, come up with a coherent and unified plaza/event space, and then there’s so much more room for grass or other programmed spaces in the park proper.

 

[RandomWalk]

I feel like there was a missed opportunity for using Copley as a viewing location for World Cup games. Close Dartmouth and use the BPL as a backdrop for the screen.

 

[Arenacale]

I showed up with major questions about the hardscape, but what proved to be most perplexing was the grass lawn and how literally NOBODY was using it. I dare any of you to go through all 30 of my photos and find even ONE person on it in any capacity, and no I’m not being selective with my shots and I was there for a solid 30 minutes

...

I wonder how much the midday sun is to blame? Is it too small to be inviting to sunbathers or picnic-ers? Too deferential to Trinity Church? Too pretty to get its hair mussed up?

I feel like people generally "Keep off the grass" as a default now, and only venture on to it either in scenarios where it's known that you're OK to be on the grass, or where there is some activity or thing that prompts you to go on it. The design here, with so much more hardscape, definitely doesn't help in that regard since it's clear you're supposed to walk on the hard stuff and it makes the grass feel somewhat more out-of-bounds. I'm sure there's a nice psychology study to be had about how a combination of chastising parents, overzealous property owners, and general societal shame led to lawns becoming off-limits.

 

[bigpicture7]

OK here’s the rest of my photos and I've now gathered my thoughts...

So this is the first time I’ve been to Copley Square in at least a few years and definitely the first time seeing it post-renovation. I’ve read all the scuttlebutt about the hardscape and while I fully agree that the color and pixelated plank pattern aren’t up to par with this important space (especially the pixelation thing… it’s so overused and hacky at this point) it isn’t as bad as some pictures have made it out to be. Rather, what I found was a park at noon lunch rush on a warm summer day being utilized basically as intended, and the open plaza was seeing just as much activation as any other part.

The raised grove with the legacy London Planes is probably the most immediately appealing and best used, especially at lunch time, and those trees went a long way to visually balancing out hardscape versus soft. My shots are all being posted in chronological order and as you can see above I was natually drawn there right away… if there was a seat open I probably would’ve plopped down for a few minutes. And from there, the soccer ball was the real star of attention, which as it turned out made it easy to spot the international/World Cup tourists since seemingly every one of them was stopping there to take a picture.

The fountain is basically unchanged and had about as much activity as I’d expect for a random July afternoon

I showed up with major questions about the hardscape, but what proved to be most perplexing was the grass lawn and how literally NOBODY was using it. I dare any of you to go through all 30 of my photos and find even ONE person on it in any capacity, and no I’m not being selective with my shots and I was there for a solid 30 minutes

I wonder how much the midday sun is to blame? Is it too small to be inviting to sunbathers or picnic-ers? Too deferential to Trinity Church? Too pretty to get its hair mussed up?

Lastly I fully agree that Dartmouth Street as an active traffic sewer needs to disappear yesterday. There’s so much underutilized space here, between the big plaza in front of the BPL to the big asphalt stretch of Darmouth to the big new plaza of Copley Sq. Remove the street, come up with a coherent and unified plaza/event space, and then there’s so much more room for grass or other programmed spaces in the park proper.

Great photos, as always, kz. Also, great analysis. I'm among those (a minority it seems?) who are generally happy with this, but I think the critical points you raise are spot on. Let me expand upon something you raised, if you don't mind: To me, it's not the general layout of the space that's the issue (I actually think the layout is a functional improvement, especially the raised grove), rather, the issue is the hardscape aesthetics. A main issue with that pixelated pattern is the massiveness of it. I've seen that style work when it's a tasteful garnish, not when it's the main course; for instance, when borders or defined narrow paths feature that sort of texture, not when massive amounts of background region feature it. Here, it is almost as if the designers were so focused on the hardscape being an events space that they forgot to consider what it would look like on non-event days.

But as one of the commentators in a recent globe article suggested, the massiveness of the pixelated brick field could be largely fixed by putting a central eye-grabbing feature in the middle of it, like a large round fountain, or something. I think a centerpiece like that would 'finish' this design. At present, the large pixelated brick field looks like an unfinished canvas or empty events space.

 

[DBM]

Lastly I fully agree that Dartmouth Street as an active traffic sewer needs to disappear yesterday. There’s so much underutilized space here, between the big plaza in front of the BPL to the big asphalt stretch of Darmouth to the big new plaza of Copley Sq. Remove the street, come up with a coherent and unified plaza/event space, and then there’s so much more room for grass or other programmed spaces in the park proper.

Obviously there's a consensus here (which I wholeheartedly support) to enhance Copley Square's urbanism by pedestrianizing this segment of Dartmouth Street. Let's say key personnel at the City--BTD, Planning Dept., Mayor's Office of Urban Mechanics, whoever--get behind this... where would their most powerful opposition come from? The Back Bay Association? The Neighborhood Assoc. of Back Bay? Boston Fire Dept.?

I wonder if the key roadblock would be the MBTA, given the proximity to the Back Bay station transit center and the myriad bus lines that traverse the area... but others here may know better?

 

[Charlie_mta]

I wonder if the key roadblock would be the MBTA, given the proximity to the Back Bay station transit center and the myriad bus lines that traverse the area... but others here may know better?

It looks like no bus routes use this segment of Dartmouth Street:

 

[kz1000ps]

I'm sure there's a nice psychology study to be had

Absolutely, and I'm particularly intrigued by this example because the previous Copley iteration had the larger lawn with better defined edges and people would regularly plop down and chill there for meaningful stretches of time. It would seem the complete lack of edges and general blankness says "stay away" enough that people are treating it as sacrosanct. Or maybe those World Cup fans and office drones are just extra polite??

 

[TheRatmeister]

I wonder how much the midday sun is to blame? Is it too small to be inviting to sunbathers or picnic-ers? Too deferential to Trinity Church? Too pretty to get its hair mussed up?

The sun is brutal. It needs way, way, way, way more tree cover to be a good place to hang out.

 

[kz1000ps]

...the issue is the hardscape aesthetics. A main issue with that pixelated pattern is the massiveness of it. I've seen that style work when it's a tasteful garnish, not when it's the main course; for instance, when borders or defined narrow paths feature that sort of texture, not when massive amounts of background region feature it. Here, it is almost as if the designers were so focused on the hardscape being an events space that they forgot to consider what it would look like on non-event days.

But as one of the commentators in a recent globe article suggested, the massiveness of the pixelated brick field could be largely fixed by putting a central eye-grabbing feature in the middle of it, like a large round fountain, or something. I think a centerpiece like that would 'finish' this design. At present, the large pixelated brick field looks like an unfinished canvas or empty events space.

Oh totally. The pixelated thing is boorish at best, and my comments were just as much about saying "it's not as terrible as my super low expectations would've led me to believe!" as it was about actually analyzing the space for what it was.

What I was getting at but didn't explicitly say was I found the plaza to be a proper size that didn't feel too large or empty *on this particular day*. There's been so much negativity towards the hardscape that I thought being there in person it would dominate all other elements, but that simply didn't happen. Rather I think it translates extra bad to photos (for very legitimate reasons, mind you) but in person it's so much easier to focus on the people, trees, buildings, traffic, etc. etc.

Having said all that it could absolutely use some further softening and focusing, and by that measure I too would love to see a statue/fountain/something go in there.

 

[Stlin]

Obviously there's a consensus here (which I wholeheartedly support) to enhance Copley Square's urbanism by pedestrianizing this segment of Dartmouth Street. Let's say key personnel at the City--BTD, Planning Dept., Mayor's Office of Urban Mechanics, whoever--get behind this... where would their most powerful opposition come from? The Back Bay Association? The Neighborhood Assoc. of Back Bay? Boston Fire Dept.?

I wonder if the key roadblock would be the MBTA, given the proximity to the Back Bay station transit center and the myriad bus lines that traverse the area... but others here may know better?

If I were to take a stab at this, much of the difficulty would be because this stretch of Dartmouth is how you'd get from the Pike to Back Bay - the Copley ramps are immediately proximate, and the off ramp would put you on Stuart & Dartmouth, which then brings drivers deeper into Back Bay, and via Boylston to the Common. I think Dartmouth is unusually load bearing for Pike users, because I'm not necessarily convinced that the alternate routes using Stuart would be any better, especially since Berkeley through the Back Bay is effectively the access to Storrow.

Berkeley & Dartmouth are also two of the few contiguous "arc" routes that can get from the river to the major South End radial roads - Ie, Boylston to Tremont to Washington St. - I think there's only 4 - Mass Ave, Dartmouth/etc, Berkeley, Arlington/Herald.

As for folks not using the grass - I get the feeling that the crowd through Copley is a lot more transient than say the Common, where you might plan to spend an afternoon with a book, and thus bring a blanket to sit on. You're unlikely to have that for a brief break in Copley. Based on your photos, there's plenty of seating, iirc much more than there used to be, and which would be my preference in that situation. What's there appears well utilized, even in the sun - so perhaps more furniture nearer the grass wouldn't be amiss.

(Also, I'll attach the latest traffic counts for the intersection leading into this stretch - don't ask me how to read it, it's an unusually complicated intersection and I'm not a traffic engineer - I have no idea what the difference here between thru and bear right would be.)