Elevated Rail: Boston and Beyond

[HenryAlan]

If Boston and the MBTA wanted to be really bold, we'd see some viaducts like they have in Berlin, completely incorporated into the built environment. Imagine a train running along roof tops of a neighborhood business district. Using the B-line example, imagine it running above all those converted car show rooms for a stretch. And after Packard's corner, it could run on a structure that could have infill structures built underneath it. Comm. Ave is wide enough that it could handle a narrow strip of buildings between the out and inbound sides.

 

[whighlander]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

If Boston and the MBTA wanted to be really bold, we'd see some viaducts like they have in Berlin, completely incorporated into the built environment. Imagine a train running along roof tops of a neighborhood business district. Using the B-line example, imagine it running above all those converted car show rooms for a stretch. And after Packard's corner, it could run on a structure that could have infill structures built underneath it. Comm. Ave is wide enough that it could handle a narrow strip of buildings between the out and inbound sides.

Henry -- my thoughts entirely -- the recent rehabs of stations on the S-Bahn and indeed some of the use of the viaducts for the mail line rail

A couple of years ago when I was on a consulting project in Berlin my host arranged a dinner in a fine Italian restaurant near the Kurfürstendamm under not the Linden but the railroad tracks (very near to the location used for the famous kissing scene in Cabaret)

There were a few disruptive intervals when the noise inhibited conversation and a couple of times you could feel the vibration - but otherwise it was a fine late June evening in Berlin eating al fresco -- such a use of the Leachmere Viaduct would work

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

If Boston and the MBTA wanted to be really bold, we'd see some viaducts like they have in Berlin, completely incorporated into the built environment. Imagine a train running along roof tops of a neighborhood business district. Using the B-line example, imagine it running above all those converted car show rooms for a stretch. And after Packard's corner, it could run on a structure that could have infill structures built underneath it. Comm. Ave is wide enough that it could handle a narrow strip of buildings between the out and inbound sides.

Now I'm excited to see this in Berlin. If you could shoot me a message (you too Whigh) with certain places of interest, I'd really appreciate it.

 

[whighlander]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Data -- try Alexanderplatz as an example --although not one of the most recent as it was originally built in the 1800's and rebuilt by the communists after the wall was turned into a concrete monstrosity in the 1960's

from the wiki
"Four Regional-Express and Regionalbahn lines as well as the S-Bahn rapid transit lines S3, S5, S7 and S75 call at the overground station. The adjacent underground station is one of the largest on the Berlin U-Bahn network, with the lines U2, U5 and U8 calling. The station is also served by four tram lines, two of which run continuously, as well as five bus lines during the day, one of which runs continuously and three night bus lines."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexanderplatz

 

[itchy]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

If Boston and the MBTA wanted to be really bold, we'd see some viaducts like they have in Berlin, completely incorporated into the built environment.

Could that be done so as not to restrict owners' ability to build their property higher or otherwise modify their buildings? If not, it would seem to be a thorny legal issue...

The best way to do this -- especially looking at the Berlin photos -- would seem to be to incorporate it into a large, de novo "mega" project being orchestrated with a heavy government hand (as anything in Alexanderplatz, which was in East Berlin, would by definition have had!). Perhaps Assembly Square, Northpoint, the Greenway, anything done at the "Southbay Gateway" or any MA Pike air rights development would lend themselves to such a project...

However, since we've suddenly gotten very excited about elevated rail, is there any particular reason why there should be elevated (as opposed to ground-level) light rail in Boston? Unless the argument is that we don't have wide-enough streets to accommodate ground-level light rail (which doesn't seem to be the case), it seems like a lot of additional infrastructure for relatively unclear benefit to build an el versus ground-level light rail, no?

 

[whighlander]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Could that be done so as not to restrict owners' ability to build their property higher or otherwise modify their buildings? If not, it would seem to be a thorny legal issue...

The best way to do this -- especially looking at the Berlin photos -- would seem to be to incorporate it into a large, de novo "mega" project being orchestrated with a heavy government hand (as anything in Alexanderplatz, which was in East Berlin, would by definition have had!). Perhaps Assembly Square, Northpoint, the Greenway, anything done at the "Southbay Gateway" or any MA Pike air rights development would lend themselves to such a project...

However, since we've suddenly gotten very excited about elevated rail, is there any particular reason why there should be elevated (as opposed to ground-level) light rail in Boston? Unless the argument is that we don't have wide-enough streets to accommodate ground-level light rail (which doesn't seem to be the case), it seems like a lot of additional infrastructure for relatively unclear benefit to build an el versus ground-level light rail, no?

Itch -- I think the answer is the statement (I believe by F-Line) that the DOT doesn't want anymore grade-level crossing of tracks

If that is ironclad policy ==> it would seem to preclude building any rail extensions which were not either elevated or underground, or at least separated in a limited access median (Green Line E from the tunnel portal until the North Eastern Station

It would also imply that since every station had to have an elevator and stars and / or escalator you might as well build up or down

 

[HenryAlan]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

However, since we've suddenly gotten very excited about elevated rail, is there any particular reason why there should be elevated (as opposed to ground-level) light rail in Boston? Unless the argument is that we don't have wide-enough streets to accommodate ground-level light rail (which doesn't seem to be the case), it seems like a lot of additional infrastructure for relatively unclear benefit to build an el versus ground-level light rail, no?

I asked myself the same question, and decided that the advantage lies in an uninterrupted ROW.

Here's an article with some good eye candy regarding Berlin:

http://www.humantransit.org/2009/09/viaduct-love-in-berlin.html

I've always fantasized about this kind of thing, but Berlin is the only place I've come across it. Paris also has some beautiful viaducts, but they don't also have the Berliner utility. The Green Line viaduct, for that matter, is also quite attractive.

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

^ I'm definitely buying that guy's book and the blog is in my favorites now.

 

[Charlie_mta]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

I see no rational reason why the Green Line couldn't be elevated from the Kenmore portal to just beyond Packard's Corner.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

T threads and the Rose Kennedy Greenway thread all seem to go off on an elevated rail tangent so let's have one place to get it all out. Anything elevated trains, in Boston's past or future, or in other cities.

To get things started here is a great archive of pictures of the old Washington St El.

Link

 

[whighlander]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

T threads and the Rose Kennedy Greenway thread all seem to go off on an elevated rail tangent so let's have one place to get it all out. Anything elevated trains, in Boston's past or future, or in other cities.

To get things started here is a great archive of pictures of the old Washington St El.

Van -- let's not forget the old Atlantic Ave El from South Station along the waterfront and of course the "Great Molasses Flood" of 1919

and of course the late and not so lamented screech corner North of Haymarket where the Orange and Green Lines came out of the ground together and both went up the incline and then headed north and then each track sharply bent in opposite directions: the Green Line headed to North Station / Boston Garden and eventually Lechmere; the Orange Line went to City Square in Charlestown

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

I'll never forget the first time I walked under the El on Causeway St when I moved to the area when I was a kid. I remember it like this noir-ish thrill to finally be living in a "real" city (I was moving from the Albany NY area so Boston was a real city to me).

A couple years ago I took this Belgian urban explorer to check out this abandoned subway station way out in Brooklyn. It was at this major crossroads with an elevated train rising 4 stories in the air and walking him around under the EL he was elated because, like me when a kid, his image of a real city was criss-crossed with elevated tracks.

 

[whighlander]

I'll never forget the first time I walked under the El on Causeway St when I moved to the area when I was a kid. I remember it like this noir-ish thrill to finally be living in a "real" city (I was moving from the Albany NY area so Boston was a real city to me).

A couple years ago I took this Belgian urban explorer to check out this abandoned subway station way out in Brooklyn. It was at this major crossroads with an elevated train rising 4 stories in the air and walking him around under the EL he was elated because, like me when a kid, his image of a real city was criss-crossed with elevated tracks.

Van -- there was a sort of gritty romanticism associated with El's even in the 1950/60s

I grew up in the Hartford CT area (suburbs) and I'm sure that there might have been old streetcar tracks around somewhere but I never saw them. The first time I visited my father's sister in East Cambridge we walked down to Lechemere and took the Green Line to downtown Boston getting off at Park Street. After getting my first PCC car ride under my belt on the way back I saw an actual 3rd rail Orange Line train climbing out of Haymarket. I suddenly felt very envious of my aunt who worked near the old Northampton El station sewing shoes. I dedicated my young life to completing the ultimate urban adventure of sneaking a ride on the Orange Line EL -- I finally accomplished this mission when a year or so later I was allowed to attend a game at Fenway with my slightly younger but much more urban savvy cousin -- pm the way home I convinced him to accompany me on my adventure and we took the Orange Line from Haymarket all the way to Sullivan Square --the closest I would get to a Euro-type station such as London's Paddington until I finally got to London.

Years later I finally got up the courage to ride the other way on the old Orange Line (aka the 'Main Line") all the way to Forest Hills and then took the Arborway Green Line back to what I considered relatively safe and known East Cambridge -- I felt completed and just in time as all of the exotic elevated stuff was gone in a couple of more years except for the venerable Lechemere Viaduct and the small bit of the Red Line from the Longfellow Bridge

I guess when the Green Line to Sommerville and Medford is done there wont even be much of the original and quite venerable Lechemere Viaduct left (i.e. everything between Science Park and North Station is new as will apparently all of the track from the Bridge to the new Lechemere Station)

 

[HenryAlan]

One of my early Boston adventures also involved the Causeway St. El. We were going to the laser Floyd show at MOS, but being unfamiliar with non B aspects of the Green Line, we ended up at the North Station surface terminus. Confused, we exited the fare restricted zone, too late realizing that we were supposed to go upstairs, and that if we paid to go back in, we wouldn't have enough money for the show and the return trip. So we set off under the El. Tracks. Not knowing how close Science Park would be, we decided to run. I completely felt like Gene Hackman in the French Connection.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

I think the best candidate for an elevated line int he area is Broadway in Everett. I can easily see eliminating parking on one side (just stagger it from one side to the other every so often), putting in a decent but slim median, and using modern concrete pillars down the median. I think it could be attractive and a HUGE success.

 

[Shepard]

Even if elevated tracks may fit nicely in a narrow median, would a station? Keeping in mind it would need elevators etc?

 

[omaja]

Broadway doesn't seem like it would work out that well... much too narrow with only two lanes of traffic and two parking lanes. You'd cast an uninviting shadow on most of the properties directly adjacent to the road. And we know how NIMBY the whole metro area is anyway.

Comm Ave between Kenmore and at least Harvard Ave or even Warren St would easily be able to handle elevated rail with stations. Talk about a ridiculously wide corridor with an excessive number of little-utilized lanes.

The part between Packard's Corner and Warren would be extremely easy to build, too; just close the center lanes and force traffic to the carriageways during construction. Service on the B line could be maintained during construction as well if the elevated structure is shifted to the center of the right-of-way.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

Even if elevated tracks may fit nicely in a narrow median, would a station? Keeping in mind it would need elevators etc?

Not quite, the only flaw IMO... I think it would have to be a bit more like the old elevateds, with beams sweeping across overhead with supports on the sides of the road.

 

[Lurker]

At stations the tracks could elevate to stack on top one another similarly to what the Orange Line tunnels do at Chinatown. Another possibility is staggering the inbound and outbound platforms, against similarly to what is done by the Orange Line downtown.

 

[Shepard]

Alternating inbound and outbound stations (what I presume you mean by the second option you mentioned) is inefficient - really, there should be a center platform able to access both in and out, so that fewer elevators are needed.