Governments and Economies

Re: Filene's

Touche, ablarc.

I suppose a country can achieve a lot when everyone is coerced onto the same page. We Americans are too busy watching Man vs. Food.
 
Re: Filene's

^ I think they're pretty happy to be coerced; they're on their way to being as rich as Americans by midcentury, and they can honestly thank their present government for much of that.

What we Americans flatter ourselves is freedom is really a carefully-tended delusion, anyway; and not one that holds much interest for the great bulk of humanity that sees car ownership on the near horizon.
 
Re: Filene's

I wonder how the growing (mainland) Chinese middle class perceives its government. I've never been there, so it's hard to really know. Perhaps there's a collective sense of purpose that's the upside of a reduction in civil rights, due process, freedom of speech/religion/expression.

The real issue is that America lost its collective sense of purpose after WWII, right around the time of the ascendancy of the personal automobile. Coincidence?

I'm more of a smartass than a political scientist. During the 2000 election, I snidely observed to supporters of both parties that if the US wishes to remain a superpower, it will likely do so under the banner of a benign form of Fascism. After eight years of Bush, and as both major political parties drift toward the fringe, am I wrong?

No wonder there's a hole on the corner of Washington & Franklin.
 
Re: Filene's

"america lost its collective purpose after world war II" Not trying to be a contrarian, but if there were such a thing as a "collective purpose" wouldn't the bipolar, battle of competing socioeconomic systems, clash of the cold war, rank pretty high on the list?
 
Re: Filene's

Beton Brut said:
I wonder how the growing (mainland) Chinese middle class perceives its government. I've never been there, so it's hard to really know. Perhaps there's a collective sense of purpose that's the upside of a reduction in civil rights, due process, freedom of speech/religion/expression.

The real issue is that America lost its collective sense of purpose after WWII, right around the time of the ascendancy of the personal automobile. Coincidence?

I'm more of a smartass than a political scientist. During the 2000 election, I snidely observed to supporters of both parties that if the US wishes to remain a superpower, it will likely do so under the banner of a benign form of Fascism. After eight years of Bush, and as both major political parties drift toward the fringe, am I wrong?

No wonder there's a hole on the corner of Washington & Franklin.
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Few care about those things that you listed, most just try to enjoy life without causing trouble, mindful of the fact that they have more freedom than in any other time in China's history (so no "reduction"). Also, there is no sense of collective purpose as far as I can tell, society is much more individualistic than you think (perhaps even more so than the US) and people just try to get the best economic opportunities for themselves that they can. It's just that they are swept up onto the wild ride and are having a lot of fun :)
 
Re: Filene's

Beton Brut said:
I wonder how the growing (mainland) Chinese middle class perceives its government.
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Why, I'm certain they're grateful to be middle class; twenty years ago they weren't.

Beton Brut said:
Perhaps there's a collective sense of purpose that's the upside of a reduction in civil rights, due process, freedom of speech/religion/expression.
Click to expand...
Reduction?? What you talkin' about, man? Compare today with the times of Chairman Mao.
 
Re: Filene's

RE: "Reduction"

I should have chosen my words more correctly. I'm referring to the real (or perceived, through the media) curtailing of civil rights, due process, freedom of speech/religion/expression in comparison to what one would experience (or perceive) in Western Democracies.
 
Re: Filene's

Oh, most of the world lives with that.



(Anyway, I suspect your choice of "perceived" is truer than most of us think.)
 
Re: Filene's

Beton Brut said:
if the US wishes to remain a superpower, it will likely do so under the banner of a benign form of Fascism. After eight years of Bush, and as both major political parties drift toward the fringe, am I wrong?
Click to expand...

THIS bein the TRULY.
 
Re: Filene's

Beton Brut said:
... if the US wishes to remain a superpower, it will likely do so under the banner of a benign form of Fascism.
Click to expand...
When it first appears on the scene, Fascism is often benign. In a twinkling, Hitler cured Germany's depression and put it on the road to superpowerhood. Mussolini made the trains run on time.
 
Re: Filene's

DUCE making mistake by NOT retiring in year XVII, and having GOOD tenure. if HE retiring the PATRIA having the AOI and holding BIG BIG oil pools in Cyrenaica, Tripolitania and FeZZAN!!! AND no Moanman Kudonkey. BUT. He get tired. he Listen to Halflad Meatpants.
 
Beton Brut said:
I wonder how the growing (mainland) Chinese middle class perceives its government. I've never been there, so it's hard to really know. Perhaps there's a collective sense of purpose that's the upside of a reduction in civil rights, due process, freedom of speech/religion/expression.
Click to expand...

From my parents and their families point of view, they see the government in positive light. You can call it brainwashing if you want but I believe that, as long as it can improve their life, they will not complain. Part of it is because of the Chinese's strong sense of national pride and part of it is because many never tasted freedom like the US and thus are fine without it. Even when they do, such as international students, they are more accustomed to the Chinese way of living and most do not try to bring back ideas of social changes, just knowledge on technology and economy.
 
Re: Filene's

^ Ever since Jefferson we've been preening ourselves with notions of social or organizational superiority that most countries' citizens couldn't care less about.

An exception might be Iran; any government that needs to kill its people in the streets is obviously run by thugs.

For the rest, we should leave the jingoism to Sarah Palin; you need to be an airhead to believe in it anyway.
 
Re: Filene's

An exception might be Iran; any government that needs to kill its people in the streets is obviously run by thugs.
Click to expand...

Doesn't that apply equally to China though?
 
Re: Filene's

Ron Newman said:
Doesn't that apply equally to China though?
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^ No, from what I can discern in the press, China is nowhere near the vicious tyranny of Iran.

You want a murderous government? Try Sudan.

Or check out Somalia for a snapshot of life without a government at all.

The Chinese are getting to buy Buicks and Tudor houses. No wonder they're not too displeased with their government.

And they can travel on 220mph trains.

What we call "freedom" isn't all that important if the government doesn't threaten your life or economic well-being. We make a fetish of it in this country, but it strikes many foreigners as faintly absurd.
 
Re: Filene's

^^Didn't Orwell write a rather famous novel on that basic premise?
 
Re: Filene's

The Iranians live quite well, and have a very high standard of living. Their biggest problem is not lack of democracy, but corruption by the ruling class, which uses the Basij and Revolutionary Guards to secure power.

The U.S. is trying to foster a split between the regular army and the thug army with a view to a military coup. That sort of split is not unusual, but the results are unpredictable. One saw it in Germany when the S.A was liquidated to appease the army; in Russia in the late 30's when the officer corps of the Red Army was liquidated by the commissariat and NKVD; the Cultural Revolution when everything was being liquidated.

One might also say the hallmark of our society is political illiquidity.
 
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