Hotel Buckminster Renovation | Brookline Ave & Beacon St | Kenmore Square (Fenway)

So what DO you put in major urban nodes these days? Do we really think that cost-effective apartments, cafes, and bookshops is all it will take? Let me clarify: I would LOVE the latter. Seriously. But I am a pragmatist. Cities have always been a mix of commercial and everything else. And what is commercial these days? We can all blame post-pandemic and big pharma, but reality is that Kenmore has been dying a slow death for decades. In the year 2000 Kenmore was on life support. Not all labs = "big pharma" anyway. I would say we should put labs right smack in the urban nodes, right alongside housing, entertainment, retail, etc, otherwise the urban nodes are dying. I want to see what that creative integration will look like. The office park aesthetic of labs is a cheap-out perpetuated by developers; it is not the necessary implementation; just look at the Broad Institute in Kendall with its retail storefronts and hidden mechanicals.



Your second sentence here does make it binary. I could imagine a preservation of the facade, with active uses on the Kenmore-frontage, perhaps even in multiple stories in elevation, but with a lab building enveloped by what I described 50+ feet set back behind inward from that. The whole hotel footprint doesn't have to have homogenous usage. Not making it binary means thinking creatively. I would want to fight any developer who doesn't honor the frontage and public-facing use; but I can imagine a hidden lab building within here that the public is barely even aware of.



I honestly believe I share similar interests and values. But I have a much different orientation and I see what you're sharing in this last paragraph differently. Yes there is a big "pharma" and associated RE dev. and banking lobby. But that is not at all the entirety of the Boston life sciences ecosystem. Calling all labs "big pharma" is simply untrue. Yes I suppose it is all connected in the end, but there is a huge education, research, non-profit, and small business aspect to this, and a huge number of employees who are not high income (and who need to be close to work and need a reasonably affordable place to live). Most of the people I know who go to school in boston and actually stay in this city are in the life sciences space, and zero of my friends in this industry are capitalistic, high-income Bro's. They are humans who want to be part of a live/work urban ecosystem.

What other employment do you see as occupying such a large portion of Boston's commercial space these days? I would argue that Boston's lab preeminence is the entire reason it is not lumped in with other cities who've had a harsher pandemic-era downfall; the opposite of what you are saying about Boston going the way of SF because of it's lab-inization.

The interesting, creative thing here is how can we make labs not break urban fabric. Not assouming they inevitably will. If left unchecked, yes, they will, but I can envision creative solutions where they don't.


Fundamentally it comes down to this: everything you're describing here is the result of policy decisions. People need to have places to live and work. The locations and dollar values attached to those items are the direct result of whatever policies are in place. You can sit back and say, "behold the reality, such as it is, we can fight for minor changes but this is just fundamentally the way things are" or you can recognize that literally everything, everything variable, everything that happens is actually the result of decisions the government has either made or chosen not to make.

It is certainly not unrealistic or a fantasy or naive to demand that the city take a far more aggressive and active interest in populating urban nodes that are already dense and covered well by transit with housing and street level commercial space. The reason that so much of what people love (and are accused of romanticizing) like small shops and the like is not the result of some law of nature or inevitable process of the Internet, but again, the result of policy decisions that have been made over decades that have led to rapid and continuous increase in inequality and centralization of power. It's not that nobody wants the mom and pop shops and prefers Starbucks to local cafes, it's that with a combination of ever increasing rents and every increasing power of big businesses, a small store cannot possibly compete. As each one goes out of business, that only further concentrates wealth and power in the competitors. I'm not arguing for state subsided bookstores but people take for granted that the processes we all lament are not actually inevitable. More breaks and much stronger regulation and tax and land use policies actually could, and once upon a time did, mitigate these effects. These things can be changed. And what is concerning is the degree to which people just wave their hands say this is just the way it is, and we simply have to count our blessings that we live in a city rich with beneficiaries of big business/tech/biotech. As you say, these process are indeed all connected. It's not simply about "big pharma" per se, since there are certainly other labs that are smaller (I assume this is the case, although I also imagine you're going to see very little of that in Boston, either), but also about asking harder questions like--who gets these jobs, where will they live, how does this impact the local economy. A major problem is that public officials like to trumped "jobs" regardless of what those jobs are. I would be most concerned to know, do these jobs offer a realistic opportunity for people who are born and raised in the city? Or are most lab jobs given to highly educated transplants from outside MA, whose high salaries only further exacerbate the local housing costs? And, while we all worship the invisible hand of the market, worth also stepping back and understanding that the success of a massive portion of the biotech industry is part and parcel related to the extraordinary expansion of healthcare dollar expenditures in the USA, which in contrast to literally every other western democracy, has not led to any increase in $/mortality improvement (we are now alone on that curve which for us is actually going down, not up). Sooner or later, the healthcare piper will have to be paid, so it might be nice to have some leadership in office to wonder whether or not we might not want to stake the whole city's success on a likely eventually sinking ship.

The problem with systems is they act differently than the individuals of which they are composed. Few people out there are actually evil and this isn't about scapegoating one person, one industry, or once demographic. But the system ends up moving in the direction it's going to move in, and that's shaped by what is and is not regulated. It's about understanding that elected officials and the economic, labor, and housing policies they implement or dont implement have deep impacts on the local ecosystems. It's not impossible to change these things.

This issue isn't just about one lab in Kenmore. Agreed that creative integration of different uses in urban nodes is good. But we are facing a trend that seeks to fill in much of the space between Longwood and Kenmore with labs. And this will have an effect. Go to Kendall Sq and look who's walking around. And look who can afford to live there. Is Kendall a regional success? Sure, I suppose, but there have been many negative impacts as well. Not scapegoating Kendall alone for high housing costs in East Cambridge, but when it's trendy to live in places like that and you've got a huge industry of life sciences execs flowing in, it will have an effect. So again, just saying "life sciences=more jobs and healthier urban ecosystem" is somewhat disingenuous. Always the question: but for whom?
 
Labs are life. They're the only mid-day weekday life an urban area can have in 2023. Offices are dead. Work-from-home people don't leave their apartments between midnight and 6pm. If you want a neighborhood that feels like it has life, you need labs (which is why the most lively-feeling parts of Boston at this point are Kendall, Fenway, and the Seaport). I realize it hasn't been the most urban-friendly aesthetic in the past and there's lots of things about lab buildings I don't like, but the Kenmore of 40 years ago is gone and it isn't coming back.
I disagree and think this is a very dangerous way of looking at things, for reasons I articulated above. There is a difference, though, between just digging in and being unrealistic, vs much stronger advocacy to change the status quo. I do not support the viewpoint that we ought to "be realistic" and allow the entire workforce to become labworkers, just because that's the zeitgeist as of right now. The pandemic shifted things but that in no way means that what we've got is how things will be, or ought to be.
 
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Fundamentally it comes down to this: everything you're describing here is the result of policy decisions. People need to have places to live and work. The locations and dollar values attached to those items are the direct result of whatever policies are in place. You can sit back and say, "behold the reality, such as it is, we can fight for minor changes but this is just fundamentally the way things are" or you can recognize that literally everything, everything variable, everything that happens is actually the result of decisions the government has either made or chosen not to make.

It is certainly not unrealistic or a fantasy or naive to demand that the city take a far more aggressive and active interest in populating urban nodes that are already dense and covered well by transit with housing and street level commercial space. The reason that so much of what people love (and are accused of romanticizing) like small shops and the like is not the result of some law of nature or inevitable process of the Internet, but again, the result of policy decisions that have been made over decades that have led to rapid and continuous increase in inequality and centralization of power. It's not that nobody wants the mom and pop shops and prefers Starbucks to local cafes, it's that with a combination of ever increasing rents and every increasing power of big businesses, a small store cannot possibly compete. As each one goes out of business, that only further concentrates wealth and power in the competitors. I'm not arguing for state subsided bookstores but people take for granted that the processes we all lament are not actually inevitable. More breaks and much stronger regulation and tax and land use policies actually could, and once upon a time did, mitigate these effects. These things can be changed. And what is concerning is the degree to which people just wave their hands say this is just the way it is, and we simply have to count our blessings that we live in a city rich with beneficiaries of big business/tech/biotech. As you say, these process are indeed all connected. It's not simply about "big pharma" per se, since there are certainly other labs that are smaller (I assume this is the case, although I also imagine you're going to see very little of that in Boston, either), but also about asking harder questions like--who gets these jobs, where will they live, how does this impact the local economy. A major problem is that public officials like to trumped "jobs" regardless of what those jobs are. I would be most concerned to know, do these jobs offer a realistic opportunity for people who are born and raised in the city? Or are most lab jobs given to highly educated transplants from outside MA, whose high salaries only further exacerbate the local housing costs? And, while we all worship the invisible hand of the market, worth also stepping back and understanding that the success of a massive portion of the biotech industry is part and parcel related to the extraordinary expansion of healthcare dollar expenditures in the USA, which in contrast to literally every other western democracy, has not led to any increase in $/mortality improvement (we are now alone on that curve which for us is actually going down, not up). Sooner or later, the healthcare piper will have to be paid, so it might be nice to have some leadership in office to wonder whether or not we might not want to stake the whole city's success on a likely eventually sinking ship.

The problem with systems is they act differently than the individuals of which they are composed. Few people out there are actually evil and this isn't about scapegoating one person, one industry, or once demographic. But the system ends up moving in the direction it's going to move in, and that's shaped by what is and is not regulated. It's about understanding that elected officials and the economic, labor, and housing policies they implement or dont implement have deep impacts on the local ecosystems. It's not impossible to change these things.

This issue isn't just about one lab in Kenmore. Agreed that creative integration of different uses in urban nodes is good. But we are facing a trend that seeks to fill in much of the space between Longwood and Kenmore with labs. And this will have an effect. Go to Kendall Sq and look who's walking around. And look who can afford to live there. Is Kendall a regional success? Sure, I suppose, but there have been many negative impacts as well. Not scapegoating Kendall alone for high housing costs in East Cambridge, but when it's trendy to live in places like that and you've got a huge industry of life sciences execs flowing in, it will have an effect. So again, just saying "life sciences=more jobs and healthier urban ecosystem" is somewhat disingenuous. Always the question: but for whom?

I agree with most of what you're saying here. I do think, however, there's a lot of positive going on around Kendall that is going to (eventually) boost its access to broader swaths of people, and there has been a lot of recent success with historic preservation and adaptive reuse around there beyond anything we're seeing in Boston as of late.

I'd like to elaborate on one more facet of my complaint of not viewing preservation here as 'binary.' I was enormously disappointed at the demo of the historic corner building across the street where the WHOOP disaster landed. I have also been sharply critical far upthread on this thread of how awfuly a botched lab conversion could turn out here @ Buckminster. But pragmatically I know there are real risks to a full preservation / no preservation dichotomy that can result in catastrophic losses if developer plays hardball, such as at WHOOP. There, the developer advanced an all-or-nothing game and won; their design work made no attempt (at least not publicly) to concede land footprint of the historic corner and to reduce their commercial footprint to allow for such; their design was fully incompatible with even attempting adaptive reuse of the corner parcel. I have no doubt it was strategic on their behalf not to show conceptual renderings of possibilities of integrating a design that coexisted with preserved corner; their narrative was "our commercial program requires the full footprint and there's nothing economically we could do to make it work" and they stuck to it. As commenters on aB rightfully pointed out re: the WHOOP parcel, it is probably true that the low floor-ceiling heights and other features of the historic corner building made it impossible to incorporate into the commercial use area, BUT why did that need to be the goal? Why not mandate at least some portion of it it be preserved alongside the new commercial space? In other words, who are we kidding: we are requiring a sacrifice from the developer here, let's just be forthright about that and negotiate around that. Instead, it was a game of chicken and the developer won unflinchingly.

My point is: "if you want to build a lab on some appreciable % of this parcel, then you need to preserve the "nose" portion of the existing hotel and allow for at least (x sq. ft.) of public-facing use along the frontage of Kenmore Sq.," is an intermediate state between "building a lab" and "retaining a hotel." Not formally talking about such intermediate cases almost guarantees that they won't be the outcome. It is always conveniently "not economically viable" or "structurally untenable" when left up to the developer. On the flipside of the dichotomy: the approach of the city blocking the whole thing unless full preservation is acheived is negative as well, because it will sit blighted for decades and Kenmore will disintegrate into something much worse. The issue here is that without the city diving headfirst into intermediate possibilities, the developers aren't going to do the right thing on their own. The MIT-developed historic parcels around Kendall have had much success with preservation and earmarking ground-level spaces for public use based on extensive collaboration with the city and historical commission - but we're talking about a non-profit who is long-term committed to the location. We can't count on most developers to do that on their own - and to your point, policy is therefore needed.
 
I agree with most of what you're saying here. I do think, however, there's a lot of positive going on around Kendall that is going to (eventually) boost its access to broader swaths of people, and there has been a lot of recent success with historic preservation and adaptive reuse around there beyond anything we're seeing in Boston as of late.

I'd like to elaborate on one more facet of my complaint of not viewing preservation here as 'binary.' I was enormously disappointed at the demo of the historic corner building across the street where the WHOOP disaster landed. I have also been sharply critical far upthread on this thread of how awfuly a botched lab conversion could turn out here @ Buckminster. But pragmatically I know there are real risks to a full preservation / no preservation dichotomy that can result in catastrophic losses if developer plays hardball, such as at WHOOP. There, the developer advanced an all-or-nothing game and won; their design work made no attempt (at least not publicly) to concede land footprint of the historic corner and to reduce their commercial footprint to allow for such; their design was fully incompatible with even attempting adaptive reuse of the corner parcel. I have no doubt it was strategic on their behalf not to show conceptual renderings of possibilities of integrating a design that coexisted with preserved corner; their narrative was "our commercial program requires the full footprint and there's nothing economically we could do to make it work" and they stuck to it. As commenters on aB rightfully pointed out re: the WHOOP parcel, it is probably true that the low floor-ceiling heights and other features of the historic corner building made it impossible to incorporate into the commercial use area, BUT why did that need to be the goal? Why not mandate at least some portion of it it be preserved alongside the new commercial space? In other words, who are we kidding: we are requiring a sacrifice from the developer here, let's just be forthright about that and negotiate around that. Instead, it was a game of chicken and the developer won unflinchingly.

My point is: "if you want to build a lab on some appreciable % of this parcel, then you need to preserve the "nose" portion of the existing hotel and allow for at least (x sq. ft.) of public-facing use along the frontage of Kenmore Sq.," is an intermediate state between "building a lab" and "retaining a hotel." Not formally talking about such intermediate cases almost guarantees that they won't be the outcome. It is always conveniently "not economically viable" or "structurally untenable" when left up to the developer. On the flipside of the dichotomy: the approach of the city blocking the whole thing unless full preservation is acheived is negative as well, because it will sit blighted for decades and Kenmore will disintegrate into something much worse. The issue here is that without the city diving headfirst into intermediate possibilities, the developers aren't going to do the right thing on their own. The MIT-developed historic parcels around Kendall have had much success with preservation and earmarking ground-level spaces for public use based on extensive collaboration with the city and historical commission - but we're talking about a non-profit who is long-term committed to the location. We can't count on most developers to do that on their own - and to your point, policy is therefore needed.

I generally agree. Re: preservation specifically, I am not actually a huge fan of die hard preservation, either. People do need to be somewhat realistic (the Blessed Sacrament Church disaster in JP is a great example of this not happening, or of wasting decades to happen). Larger policy shifts need to happen to support things like preservation realistically. It's kind of like drug decrim in Oregon or petty offense de-prioritization in SF: if you cant actually make other related policy changes that address root causes, those things aren't going to work very well. I think we could and should preserve more buildings but we go about it in a very limited and backward way where it ends up being all or nothing. Honestly, I would be OK with this actual building being demo'ed if it was replaced with something great that would re-activate Kenmore. It's not that great a building, it's just old and reasonably handsome. The Deerfield St building was more of a tragic loss, in my opinion.
 
Kenmore of 40 years ago is gone and it isn't coming back.
While true, it nevertheless makes me very sad to know what has been lost. For the record, I fully embrace lab construction, even in Kenmore Square. Cities that can change are cities that remain vibrant and relevant. Cities that don't, can maybe hope to be museum type places, but I've always liked the way Boston has managed both results.
 
I disagree and think this is a very dangerous way of looking at things, for reasons I articulated above. There is a difference, though, between just digging in and being unrealistic, vs much stronger advocacy to change the status quo. I do not support the viewpoint that we ought to "be realistic" and allow the entire workforce to become labworkers, just because that's the zeitgeist as of right now. The pandemic shifted things but that in no way means that what we've got is how things will be, or ought to be.

The entire workforce isn't becoming labworkers - the entire office workforce isn't going into offices anymore. That ship has sailed. The zeitgeist I'm referring to isn't the lab fad, it's telework. If the lab fad dies (and it looks like it's starting to in many parts of Boston) the next step is abandonment of neighborhoods during the day, as we have seen in San Francisco (and other Downtowns to a lesser degree).

So your workforce that's coming into cities is labworkers if there are labs, education workers (students and teachers, professors, etc.), retail, and service workers. Thanks to clustering effects, retail and service workers tended to congregate where office and lab workers were, and the office workers are gone. A lot of residents might open up possibilities for nightlife - restaurants, clubs, maybe shops - and there will be destination shopping streets but again, most people will go there evenings and weekends.

An alternative approach to Kenmore would be to lean on BU and the Longwood academic cluster and find vibrancy through those folks.
 
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The entire workforce isn't becoming labworkers - the entire office workforce isn't going into offices anymore. That ship has sailed. The zeitgeist I'm referring to isn't the lab fad, it's telework. If the lab fad dies (and it looks like it's starting to in many parts of Boston) the next step is abandonment of neighborhoods during the day, as we have seen in San Francisco (and other Downtowns to a lesser degree).

So your workforce that's coming into cities is labworkers if there are labs, education workers (students and teachers, professors, etc.), retail, and service workers. Thanks to clustering effects, retail and service workers tended to congregate where office and lab workers were, and the office workers are gone. A lot of residents might open up possibilities for nightlife - restaurants, clubs, maybe shops - and there will be destination shopping streets but again, most people will go there evenings and weekends.

An alternative approach to Kenmore would be to lean on BU and the Longwood academic cluster and find vibrancy through those folks.

Yes, clustering effects (e.g., with clusters anchored upon any of: higher ed, research/labs, medical, life sciences, the arts, maker-intensive fields, some enduring office-based fields) + housing + reliable, frequent transit (including regional rail) = what we need for a vibrant Boston. Not whatever commercial uses were popular 40+ years ago; not vacant historic buildings locked into a configuration that no one is willing to spend money on. We need the intersection of good policy, good land use opportunities (including reasonable middle-ground preservation/adaptive reuse opportunities), and an insistence on human/public-centric design. Does that not bring us all to agreement?
 
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As commenters on aB rightfully pointed out re: the WHOOP parcel, it is probably true that the low floor-ceiling heights and other features of the historic corner building made it impossible to incorporate into the commercial use area, BUT why did that need to be the goal?

I strongly believe that more of these buildings could be saved by using double-height podium floors at the base. Then allow however much is necessary on top to make it all economically feasible/palatable. Taller buildings, more density, more outward-facing preservation.
 
The entire workforce isn't becoming labworkers - the entire office workforce isn't going into offices anymore. That ship has sailed. The zeitgeist I'm referring to isn't the lab fad, it's telework. If the lab fad dies (and it looks like it's starting to in many parts of Boston) the next step is abandonment of neighborhoods during the day, as we have seen in San Francisco (and other Downtowns to a lesser degree).

So your workforce that's coming into cities is labworkers if there are labs, education workers (students and teachers, professors, etc.), retail, and service workers. Thanks to clustering effects, retail and service workers tended to congregate where office and lab workers were, and the office workers are gone. A lot of residents might open up possibilities for nightlife - restaurants, clubs, maybe shops - and there will be destination shopping streets but again, most people will go there evenings and weekends.

An alternative approach to Kenmore would be to lean on BU and the Longwood academic cluster and find vibrancy through those folks.
There are much bigger processes at work that need to be addressed. We’re in the middle of the biggest shift in workforce location in history. But this is one that raises massive questions about what people are going to and where they’re gonna do it. This is just the beginning. When automation and AI sweep away massive amounts of jobs, which is not far away, the question that we will be faced with (are faced with now) is: what do people do with their lives once tech leads to such serious changes? Again, this isn’t about subsidized bookstores but people need jobs or at least a purpose. And my position is this all needs to be considered now. Rather than just saying well, the world is different so let’s just accept the 2023 reality as is!

Yes, clustering effects (e.g., with clusters anchored upon any of: higher ed, research/labs, medical, life sciences, the arts, maker-intensive fields, some enduring office-based fields) + housing + reliable, frequent transit (including regional rail) = what we need for a vibrant Boston. Not whatever commercial uses were popular 40+ years ago; not vacant historic buildings locked into a configuration that no one is willing to spend money on. We need the intersection of good policy, good land use opportunities (including reasonable middle-ground preservation/adaptive reuse opportunities), and an insistence on human/public-centric design. Does that not bring us all to agreement?
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I strongly believe that more of these buildings could be saved by using double-height podium floors at the base. Then allow however much is necessary on top to make it all economically feasible/palatable. Taller buildings, more density, more outward-facing preservation.

I agree, but I'd also say that's an example of the type of creative middle ground I am referring to. Developer loses some usable square footage in the historic portion in order to do that, but positively contributes to maintaining the city's fabric. It's one form of in-between between total demo and total restoration.
 
There are much bigger processes at work that need to be addressed. We’re in the middle of the biggest shift in workforce location in history. But this is one that raises massive questions about what people are going to and where they’re gonna do it. This is just the beginning. When automation and AI sweep away massive amounts of jobs, which is not far away, the question that we will be faced with (are faced with now) is: what do people do with their lives once tech leads to such serious changes? Again, this isn’t about subsidized bookstores but people need jobs or at least a purpose. And my position is this all needs to be considered now. Rather than just saying well, the world is different so let’s just accept the 2023 reality as is!

This is perhaps veering off topic for this thread, much stemming from my own doing as well ; ), but as much as I agree with your paragraph, I think a useful critical framing of this topic for policymakers might be: "that existing occupational roles and positions will become obsolete is, and always has been, inevitable. So, healthy workforce planning and development is as much about 'what cool and useful things can we ask humans to do' as it is about 'which jobs are the robots taking' ". What are humans uniquely amazing at? What would we want to ask humans to do even in the face of automation, not because it fulfills some already-known cost line item on today's ledger, but because of the opportunity and promise it brings to sick humans on that particular type of challenge? Humans are not going away even if their jobs do, so why aren't we investing as much time in learning the areas in which they are superior to computers as we are in learning what computers can do? A good friend and colleague of mine spent many years of his career on process automation. He explains there were some tasks that we clearly better suited for computers and machines than for humans; but there were other things that could indeed possibly be automated, but humans were so uniquely good at them, that the response was basically "why bother...not worth it." As an engineering manager myself in the past, I remember times when business was slow and there was a layoff threat, upper management laid out all kinds of creative accounting strategies during the slow period about getting people to use their medical benefits ("take that elective surgery you've been putting off") or "consider using your vacation time" (employees owned their own paid vaca time at that firm); try to avoid having your people "sitting around," the optics and financials of that are not good. But in a particularly bad time, a bunch of my team was essentially just sitting on overhead, and so I said, if they're sitting on overhead anyway, what the heck, and asked them to work on a completely unplanned creative task to come up with a trade show demo for some wish-we-had-time-for-it implementation of our technology. It sounds like a fairytale story, but truth is they absolutely knocked it out of the park, and what we came up with ended up (a while later) becoming a real product. The problem in todays world - even in knowledge work - is that society and upper management view employees as paint brushes, rather than as artists. The less creativity and curiosity we build into our notion of what employment means, the more automation will just take it over. SO...slightly back on topic: this is why I believe so much in high-quality work ecosystems that do right by the whole person; places people actually want to live and work and be part of creative communities (which also means having their concerns, like childcare and eldercare, taken care of); basically as you put it so nicely:

...Again, this isn’t about subsidized bookstores but people need jobs or at least a purpose. And my position is this all needs to be considered now. Rather than just saying well, the world is different so let’s just accept the 2023 reality as is!
 
...Developer loses some usable square footage in the historic portion in order to do that, but positively contributes to maintaining the city's fabric....

This is why there should be additional height and density bonuses for buildings that go this extra step for preservation. It's expensive! There should also be extra height allowances for residential over other functions (particularly labs) in order to actually incentivize the use we need the most. Most developers are going to opt for a 150'-200' lab compared to a 150'-200' residential, but maybe would prefer a 400'-600' residential over the 150'-200' lab on the same plot of land.
 
This is why there should be additional height and density bonuses for buildings that go this extra step for preservation. It's expensive! There should also be extra height allowances for residential over other functions (particularly labs) in order to actually incentivize the use we need the most. Most developers are going to opt for a 150'-200' lab compared to a 150'-200' residential, but maybe would prefer a 400'-600' residential over the 150'-200' lab on the same plot of land.

There is a recent example of pretty much exactly what you're asking for a mile away:

It's not a lab in this case, but it still aligns with your point about what is possible. The historic podium was completely gutted, including the floors being ripped out; a new cast-in-place interior frame was installed; floor-to-ceiling height was expanded and 1st floor was lowered to sidewalk level (it was ~4-5 feet up, previously), then a ~300-ft residential (grad student housing) tower was installed which required a special permit. I recall that the historical commission endorsed the effort as a way to preserve the historical character of the block, while allowing increased utilization of the land parcel.
 
It is very much possible to preserve historic buildings (or at bare minimum the facades) while the city continues to grow and evolve. That's a large part of what makes Boston so special. Once the old buildings are gone, there is nothing new that will ever come close to replacing them. No one goes to Kenmore Square because the WHOOP building is so cool.

The fact is Boston still has a hotel shortage and renovating the Hotel Buckminster makes sense. There is plenty of room to build lab space, including in the area. Heck there is an entire highway that can be decked over with nothing but labs if that's what you want. But losing a historic hotel for lab space on a prominent corner with tons of pedestrian traffic is just dumb.
 
This is why there should be additional height and density bonuses for buildings that go this extra step for preservation. It's expensive! There should also be extra height allowances for residential over other functions (particularly labs) in order to actually incentivize the use we need the most. Most developers are going to opt for a 150'-200' lab compared to a 150'-200' residential, but maybe would prefer a 400'-600' residential over the 150'-200' lab on the same plot of land.


Amen. We need 50+ story residential towers all over Boston - - I found an earlier poster's contention that " Labs are life. They're the only mid-day weekday life an urban area can have in 2023. Offices are dead. Work-from-home people don't leave their apartments between midnight and 6pm." ponderous. In a word, No. Work-from-home-people most assuredly do NOT not leave their apartments between midnight and 6pm. My son lives around the corner from the Pru and works virtually for a San Jose company. He's at either the Pru Star Market, the Planet Fitness on Newbury, the Fenway Target, any one of a number of South End bodegas, shops or take out places (Pocket Deli on Tremont is particularly convenient and has a great owner) each and every day sometime between midnight and 6pm. I'm not sure where that poster's image of locked down, cloistered home workers comes from. This ain't March 2020 Covid. The most dynamic urban answer for the cities of the 21st century and beyond is for residential - massive residential - which will spawn more 24/7 life and stores, restaurants, service industries, medical centers, etc. Labs won't do that.
 
Amen. We need 50+ story residential towers all over Boston - - I found an earlier poster's contention that " Labs are life. They're the only mid-day weekday life an urban area can have in 2023. Offices are dead. Work-from-home people don't leave their apartments between midnight and 6pm." ponderous. In a word, No. Work-from-home-people most assuredly do NOT not leave their apartments between midnight and 6pm. My son lives around the corner from the Pru and works virtually for a San Jose company. He's at either the Pru Star Market, the Planet Fitness on Newbury, the Fenway Target, any one of a number of South End bodegas, shops or take out places (Pocket Deli on Tremont is particularly convenient and has a great owner) each and every day sometime between midnight and 6pm. I'm not sure where that poster's image of locked down, cloistered home workers comes from. This ain't March 2020 Covid. The most dynamic urban answer for the cities of the 21st century and beyond is for residential - massive residential - which will spawn more 24/7 life and stores, restaurants, service industries, medical centers, etc. Labs won't do that.

shmessy, with deep respect, as I've enjoyed both our agreements and friendly debates over the years, I for the life of me don't understand the magnitude of your animosity toward urban labs. But first, let me start by saying I agree with most of your post, including your characterization of remote workers who do indeed leave their home and work in local establishments throughout the day (anecdotally I see much of this, and do it sometimes myself when remote). Let me now raise two pertinent counterpoints: first, until the last ~50-60 years, the urban cores of cities were always a mix of offices and light industry, including workshops, small-scale factories and craft-workplaces, facilities that processed foods, etc. Only relatively recently have urban cores become the sterile, 9-5, purely white-collar stuff. If anything, labs that draw on a city's talent base and local resources are nothing more than a return to the dense urban ecosystems of the recent past. So long as (and this is a big caveat) the labs are truly well integrated, with engaging streetwalls and multi-use composition, then they are a legitimate urban form - particularly when tastefully woven among many other uses in a city. I too would have a big problem if labs "took over" historic neighborhoods consuming multiple adjacent parcels, but if a given parcel is in a prime location, is presently underutilized, and the lab is tastefully integrated and publicly engaging, then it is nothing more than a piece of a diverse city ecosystem - composing cities the way they have been for centuries.
Secondly, I do not know your son's age or whether he has a spouse or family/kids, but given the limited info that you shared, he likely does not represent the pertinent issue with respect to remote work and cities. In fact, I have argued elsewhere (circa 2021 when everyone was saying remote work was going to be the death of cities) that some types of individuals, particularly single twentysomethings, might be just as likely or more to live/work in cities (than they did pre-pandemic) as a result of remote work because young people love cities and, given remote work's prospect of enabling them to live wherever, would actually choose to live in cities while working remote. So (again it's a big if because I don't know your son's situation) if your son is young and single, his story is not the "big deal" here. The big deal, rather, is the mass exodus of young remote workers as they age (and hitch up and have kids etc). Even before the pandemic, Boston has been known to be losing people at the turning-30 age range (relatively speaking, w.r.t. other demographics). And look at Boston Public Schools enrollment, which has correspondingly been dropping over the past decade+. Since remote work has further enabled people to act on the latent demand to raise families elsewhere, those are the types of people less likely to be living/working in the city post-pandemic, and less likely to be community participants in the city thereafter as well. The suburbanite remote workers, who, sure, may leave the house at certain points (esp. to walk the dog or do daycare pickup/drop-off), are much less likely to be doing what you describe your son doing. Yet (and this is logical + anecdotal) the Boston medical and lab-anchored urban families (of which several are in my personal social circle) have no choice but to work in the city, and are less likely to flee to raise their family far away. In other words, with regard to the "labs are life" post you mentioned, the latter is an example of a demographic that urban labs keep/boost in Boston/immediate environs. Which is to say, urban labs retain life in the city that might otherwise be gone. My argument is NOT to say that everything should become a lab (gosh that would be scary), but, rather, that there is a solid and legit case for a healthy smattering of urban labs.
 
shmessy, with deep respect, as I've enjoyed both our agreements and friendly debates over the years, I for the life of me don't understand the magnitude of your animosity toward urban labs. But first, let me start by saying I agree with most of your post, including your characterization of remote workers who do indeed leave their home and work in local establishments throughout the day (anecdotally I see much of this, and do it sometimes myself when remote). Let me now raise two pertinent counterpoints: first, until the last ~50-60 years, the urban cores of cities were always a mix of offices and light industry, including workshops, small-scale factories and craft-workplaces, facilities that processed foods, etc. Only relatively recently have urban cores become the sterile, 9-5, purely white-collar stuff. If anything, labs that draw on a city's talent base and local resources are nothing more than a return to the dense urban ecosystems of the recent past. So long as (and this is a big caveat) the labs are truly well integrated, with engaging streetwalls and multi-use composition, then they are a legitimate urban form - particularly when tastefully woven among many other uses in a city. I too would have a big problem if labs "took over" historic neighborhoods consuming multiple adjacent parcels, but if a given parcel is in a prime location, is presently underutilized, and the lab is tastefully integrated and publicly engaging, then it is nothing more than a piece of a diverse city ecosystem - composing cities the way they have been for centuries.
Secondly, I do not know your son's age or whether he has a spouse or family/kids, but given the limited info that you shared, he likely does not represent the pertinent issue with respect to remote work and cities. In fact, I have argued elsewhere (circa 2021 when everyone was saying remote work was going to be the death of cities) that some types of individuals, particularly single twentysomethings, might be just as likely or more to live/work in cities (than they did pre-pandemic) as a result of remote work because young people love cities and, given remote work's prospect of enabling them to live wherever, would actually choose to live in cities while working remote. So (again it's a big if because I don't know your son's situation) if your son is young and single, his story is not the "big deal" here. The big deal, rather, is the mass exodus of young remote workers as they age (and hitch up and have kids etc). Even before the pandemic, Boston has been known to be losing people at the turning-30 age range (relatively speaking, w.r.t. other demographics). And look at Boston Public Schools enrollment, which has correspondingly been dropping over the past decade+. Since remote work has further enabled people to act on the latent demand to raise families elsewhere, those are the types of people less likely to be living/working in the city post-pandemic, and less likely to be community participants in the city thereafter as well. The suburbanite remote workers, who, sure, may leave the house at certain points (esp. to walk the dog or do daycare pickup/drop-off), are much less likely to be doing what you describe your son doing. Yet (and this is logical + anecdotal) the Boston medical and lab-anchored urban families (of which several are in my personal social circle) have no choice but to work in the city, and are less likely to flee to raise their family far away. In other words, with regard to the "labs are life" post you mentioned, the latter is an example of a demographic that urban labs keep/boost in Boston/immediate environs. Which is to say, urban labs retain life in the city that might otherwise be gone. My argument is NOT to say that everything should become a lab (gosh that would be scary), but, rather, that there is a solid and legit case for a healthy smattering of urban labs.

Many good points in there, BP, however there are three fundamentals that exist:

1) There are hundreds of thousands (that is not an exaggeration) of talented/ambitious humanoids that want to move to Boston who simply cannot due to the dearth of housing. THIS (not any possible perceived shortage of lab space) is the primary (or at least reason 1b - to the disaster that is the MBTA) that is holding Boston back from it’s true potential. The market demand is there waiting on a silver platter. At the same time, the city would fill a big need of its own (higher tax revenue, staunching the loss of business to the Nashville's and Charlottes) if it simply met that demand. Not meeting that demand means the demand will look elsewhere - - hurray Texas?

2) I admit a tendency towards derisiveness at the Odurandina-ish bent to DZ’s constant height focused posts, however, here - with residential - I am in full agreement. Boston needs to build UP with residential - - the demand is there - - -and the ancillary growth from that of restaurants, service shops, stores, theatres, museums, medical centers would be a compound benefit to truly turning Boston into a lively 24/7 city. Labs are landscraping space hogs, short and fat - - they take up value land space . It is what it is. That type of building works well along highways and in suburbs. They just take up precious hectares in an urban core. For existential reasons in the 21st and future centuries, Boston needs tall and thin, not short and fat. Boston is not Jacksonville or Tuscon - - it is not blessed with an abundance of space. Don’t waste it. Optimize it.

3). How many times have we rehashed the obvious reason why the Globe’s spotlight article last month about the difference in liveliness today between Downtown Crossing vs the Back Back/Fenway/Seaport boils down to office vs integrated work/residential? No one is saying eliminate labs (plenty in Fenway/Seaport), but labs are not what is keeping those places vibrant. Humanoids are. There are plenty of places to put a lab. The Whoops Corner in Kenmore Square (and the Buckminster Hotel, for that matter) are two places that really are bad fits IMHO, that is if we think of Boston as unique and different from a Charlotte or Nashville.

***My bigger question is why does a lab NEED to be downtown Instead of at an Alewife or Quincy Center? What true benefit does a lab get from being on the Rose Kennedy Greenway in front of the State Street HQ or in Kenmore Square vs. being along the Pike in Allston?
 
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This conversation seems to be wandering far away from the Buckminster project and into more general urbanism. Is there a better thread to continue this on? I don’t want to perpetuate the derail with my thoughts.
 

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