PLAN: South Boston Dorchester Avenue Master Plan

datadyne007

datadyne007

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Draft Link - 05/20/16: http://www.bostonredevelopmentauthority.org/getattachment/387e2569-e1b7-4653-8900-23c1f4186325 (Warning: Large)

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Wow. It's like bizzaro Boston new roads and smaller lots?
I'm a fan of the stepped approach versus the dumbbell. Gradual build up from existing neighborhoods. Less intrusive. Seeing it broken up in the later renderings puts in in a much better perspective.

Strange the lack of height at Broadway, where new height is currently being added.

Love to see Andrew developed like they show. Allow it to be the great city square it should be and has every potential to become.

I'm liking the new 21st century Boston development approach. Too bad it took 2 decades to start, I hope it sticks around and really pushes the trend.

The Columbia Ave. Section was initially scary as it looked like a 6 lane highway (like it already is). I see it's 4 travel lanes, but still looks very wide and boulevardesque.

We'll see I suppose if this gets traction. I'll say it's on the right track by and large however already.

Thanks for posting.
 
Definitely one of the most exciting documents posted on here in a while... I really hope they implement this in full.
 
Wow, all in all, fantastic stuff. The "Stepped" concept looks a bit too much like a wall to me, although I understand the appeal of using some height to partition 93 and the development. The loosely sketched "Hybrid" concept on page 52 is my favorite massing proposal.

As an aside, I find it funny that they can't call any of the proposed land uses "industrial", it has to be "21st century industrial".
 
Is this real life? Can't wait for the southie crowd to pull a nutty about lack of parking.

Is this what Washington st. In JP will look like?
 
FK4 said:
Definitely one of the most exciting documents posted on here in a while... I really hope they implement this in full.
Click to expand...

FK -- You need to do a tour of the boundaries before you empbrace this concept -- sure the places where cranes are parked and warehouses can be targets for more intensive development

However, some of this proposal would have a very negative impact on existing stable communities, in particular the Polish Triangle [between Boston St and Dorchester Ave close to Andrew Sq.]

Just as no one could contemplate a 300 foot tower overlooking Mike's Pastry in the North End -- there shouldn't be any 300 foot buildings towering over the Baltic Deli or the Our Lady of Czestochowa Church

To protect the residents of the Traingle no building that wouldn't fit on say Hanover Street [i.e. 4 to 6 stories about 50 feet] should be permitted on Dorchester Ave past the intersection with Southhanpton St.
 
Shame the FAA limits the heights here to 300' - would have been a natural extension of the high spine concept down through South Bay and across into Widett Circle.
 
I'm all about height but even 300' is completely out of scale for this part of town. I think it's bold and would look great based on the plans but to increase the high spine here is a little ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong I think this should happen but we all know the T and surrounding streets can't handle this density.
 
617 said:
Don't get me wrong I think this should happen but we all know the T and surrounding streets can't handle this density.
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That's why they need to be done TOGETHER. Everyone in this City thinks its either/or, housing or transit. It's not. It's BOTH.
 
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whighlander said:
FK -- You need to do a tour of the boundaries before you empbrace this concept -- sure the places where cranes are parked and warehouses can be targets for more intensive development

However, some of this proposal would have a very negative impact on existing stable communities, in particular the Polish Triangle [between Boston St and Dorchester Ave close to Andrew Sq.]

Just as no one could contemplate a 300 foot tower overlooking Mike's Pastry in the North End -- there shouldn't be any 300 foot buildings towering over the Baltic Deli or the Our Lady of Czestochowa Church

To protect the residents of the Traingle no building that wouldn't fit on say Hanover Street [i.e. 4 to 6 stories about 50 feet] should be permitted on Dorchester Ave past the intersection with Southhanpton St.
Click to expand...

Disagree. And as someone who constantly points out the evolving phases of neighborhoods, you should too.

The Polish Triangle has been a dwindling Polish community for years (feel free to read about it here). Even if it wasn't, we don't need to preserve ethnic enclaves, at least as such. Calling Centre St in JP "Avenida de las Americas" is moronic, and also a bit late. Back to Polish Triangle vs North End - North End is appreciated not just for being some Disney Little Italy, but for its 18th-19th C feel, intimate streets, small shops, etc. It would be beloved even if it weren't Italian (thread derail blocker: I get that the Italian theme contributes, but less than you think. Anyone who wants to debate why the North End is charming or not can PM me, don't do it here). Anyway - Polish Triangle, if you can even really call it that (it's a pretty phony neighborhood, only exists by virtue of some major streets) is decent but pretty average in architecture for the area. Not saying to tear it all down, but it's not going to be ruined by some modern developments nearby. It certainly is not a "stable community" as you put it - lots of those triple deckers are filled with Southie types and it's a neighborhood very much in transition.

Now - re: having lots to store the cherry pickers - yes, that's important, and needs to be considered in all major development plans like this. But, it's not like the city is going to exercise eminent domain here, and little by little, these types of businesses inevitably will get pushed further out. The area is way too close to the urban core for that not to happen eventually. So we can respect the needs of light industrial and industrial/commercial businesses, to a point, and hopefully the city will do that. But let's not wax nostalgic about a neighborhood that regardless, won't exist in 20 years. Groups move in and move out. Brazilians vacated Allston and Russians vacated Brookline. No need to over-romanticize.

This is an area close to downtown, on the Red Line, and this is overall an excellent plan. There will definitely be a need for construction of the Urban Ring - probably in the form of legitimate BRT, as discussed elsewhere - if this happens, but in my mind, that's a good thing - provides more justifcation for something already needed now.
 
FK4 said:
Disagree. And as someone who constantly points out the evolving phases of neighborhoods, you should too.

The Polish Triangle has been a dwindling Polish community for years (feel free to read about it here). Even if it wasn't, we don't need to preserve ethnic enclaves, at least as such. Calling Centre St in JP "Avenida de las Americas" is moronic, and also a bit late. Back to Polish Triangle vs North End - North End is appreciated not just for being some Disney Little Italy, but for its 18th-19th C feel, intimate streets, small shops, etc. It would be beloved even if it weren't Italian (thread derail blocker: I get that the Italian theme contributes, but less than you think. Anyone who wants to debate why the North End is charming or not can PM me, don't do it here). Anyway - Polish Triangle, if you can even really call it that (it's a pretty phony neighborhood, only exists by virtue of some major streets) is decent but pretty average in architecture for the area. Not saying to tear it all down, but it's not going to be ruined by some modern developments nearby. It certainly is not a "stable community" as you put it - lots of those triple deckers are filled with Southie types and it's a neighborhood very much in transition.

Now - re: having lots to store the cherry pickers - yes, that's important, and needs to be considered in all major development plans like this. But, it's not like the city is going to exercise eminent domain here, and little by little, these types of businesses inevitably will get pushed further out. The area is way too close to the urban core for that not to happen eventually. So we can respect the needs of light industrial and industrial/commercial businesses, to a point, and hopefully the city will do that. But let's not wax nostalgic about a neighborhood that regardless, won't exist in 20 years. Groups move in and move out. Brazilians vacated Allston and Russians vacated Brookline. No need to over-romanticize.

This is an area close to downtown, on the Red Line, and this is overall an excellent plan. There will definitely be a need for construction of the Urban Ring - probably in the form of legitimate BRT, as discussed elsewhere - if this happens, but in my mind, that's a good thing - provides more justifcation for something already needed now.
Click to expand...
The Polish Triangle people were freaking out about the South Bay Center Expansion too.

And I agree completely with you. No one is advocating to rezone the Polish Triangle itself, but rather the area around it. The Polish Triangle (or what's left of it) can exist on its own like our very own Bay Village or Berlin's Alt-Marzahn, which was spared by the DDR that built Plattenbau around it:

Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-1985-0723-004,_Berlin,_Alt-Marzahn.jpg


III124_Marzahn_960x768_c_Bezirksamt_Marzahn.jpg


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617 said:
I'm all about height but even 300' is completely out of scale for this part of town. I think it's bold and would look great based on the plans but to increase the high spine here is a little ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong I think this should happen but we all know the T and surrounding streets can't handle this density.
Click to expand...

I mean, its right below to Downtown (well, Chinatown/Leather District), and a crazy mess of highway/rail infrastructure and industrial builds, don't really see why it wouldn't be a natural extension of Downtown - especially since there is no other direction to really go, and it steps down pretty nicely into residential neighborhoods south of South Bay.
 
FK4 said:
Disagree. And as someone who constantly points out the evolving phases of neighborhoods, you should too.

The Polish Triangle has been a dwindling Polish community for years (feel free to read about it here). Even if it wasn't, we don't need to preserve ethnic enclaves, at least as such. Calling Centre St in JP "Avenida de las Americas" is moronic, and also a bit late. Back to Polish Triangle vs North End - North End is appreciated not just for being some Disney Little Italy, but for its 18th-19th C feel, intimate streets, small shops, etc. It would be beloved even if it weren't Italian (thread derail blocker: I get that the Italian theme contributes, but less than you think. Anyone who wants to debate why the North End is charming or not can PM me, don't do it here). Anyway - Polish Triangle, if you can even really call it that (it's a pretty phony neighborhood, only exists by virtue of some major streets) is decent but pretty average in architecture for the area. Not saying to tear it all down, but it's not going to be ruined by some modern developments nearby. It certainly is not a "stable community" as you put it - lots of those triple deckers are filled with Southie types and it's a neighborhood very much in transition.

Now - re: having lots to store the cherry pickers - yes, that's important, and needs to be considered in all major development plans like this. But, it's not like the city is going to exercise eminent domain here, and little by little, these types of businesses inevitably will get pushed further out. The area is way too close to the urban core for that not to happen eventually. So we can respect the needs of light industrial and industrial/commercial businesses, to a point, and hopefully the city will do that. But let's not wax nostalgic about a neighborhood that regardless, won't exist in 20 years. Groups move in and move out. Brazilians vacated Allston and Russians vacated Brookline. No need to over-romanticize.

This is an area close to downtown, on the Red Line, and this is overall an excellent plan. There will definitely be a need for construction of the Urban Ring - probably in the form of legitimate BRT, as discussed elsewhere - if this happens, but in my mind, that's a good thing - provides more justifcation for something already needed now.
Click to expand...

FK --- if you do your homework you would find that Our Lady of Czestochowa is not just a church with a Polish Heritage, but it is one of the few remaining churches in the Archdiocese of Boston which still offers masses in Polish. It functions as the anchor for the local and not-so-local Polish-heritage Community.
The-first-Polish-Parish-in-the-Boston-Area-1893-300x206.jpg
original 1890's church that burned in 1973 fire
parafia-cropped-1140x395.jpg
the 1975 "new church"
Our Lady of Czestochowa offers Polish Language Masses which draw native Polish speakers from the surroundings as far away as Framingham and Polish-heritage visitors from all around the world -- Lech Walesa for example. The former parish school located on Boston Street behind the church is used for Polish language classes and other community activities.
Adjacent to the Statue of the Revolutionary War Hero Count Casimir Pulaski
040c2410.jpg
is another mainstay of people with Polish heritage from throughout Greater Boston -- The Polish Citizen's Club, situated on Boston St. just as it flies over I-93's traffic -- appropriate for a cavalry man. Several annual events are organized by the Club, the Church or affiliated groups including music, dance, art sales, and even a parade in the neighborhood make it much more than just a place where a few Polish speakers happen to live.

Much like Chinatown -- People frequent the triangle because of their desire to maintain contact with their Polish ancestry or just through a friendship with Boston's Polonia.
The nearby Cafe Polonia, Syrena Travel [specializing in travel to Central Europe], offices of attorneys who speak polish, the Baltic Deli, and also have clientele well beyond the boundary of the triangle. Yet all of these institutions depend on the local population for their "base."

There is more than enough industrial land between the two stations to satisfy the need of developers for years
 
Build it to the max.

Use trains, busses or a tram.

53,000 or bust. We could hit that mark and more.
 
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whighlander said:
FK --- if you do your homework you would find that Our Lady of Czestochowa is not just a church with a Polish Heritage, but it is one of the few remaining churches in the Archdiocese of Boston which still offers masses in Polish.
Click to expand...

literally everything you said is covered by the Globe article FK4 linked to. Polish masses, polish language classes, etc.
 
dwash59 said:
literally everything you said is covered by the Globe article FK4 linked to. Polish masses, polish language classes, etc.
Click to expand...

Dwash -- the relevant point was -- don't just take the Globe's word for it -- do your own homework -- there is so much more available about the Polish Triangle from local publications -- perhaps even take a short trip on the Red Line and see for your self
 
I really appreciate well displayed and well designed information. So I'm torn about this document as well as most of the documents to come out of Boston is planning divisions. What concerns me is that the city clearly puts a lot of effort and probably money into ensuring that it makes lots of nice pretty releases, yet the politics and the machinations are just as secretive and corrupt as in the last. These beautiful documents only give a veneer of modernity, enough to fool plenty of people that things are changing - but have they actually?
 
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