Amazon in Boston Discussion

I wonder how many people they plan to hire.

I'm a software engineer. I got emailed from 4 different Amazon recruiters about the Boston jobs this week. I think they want to hire a lot.

As an engineering manager, I can attest it's hard to close req's here in Boston. There are many engineers, but also a ton of tech companies, with something like 2.8% unemployment. You either let a req sit open for months, or pay top dollar.
 
According to the Globe, taking 150,000 sq ft at 253 Summer.

253Summer_biz.jpg


The Globe article.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...-fort-point/SpZObAf0i4cCeb6QkS1xJO/story.html
 
Last edited:
Aren't most of the buildings in FP pretty old? Going to have to expand the bathrooms...

Personally I would have rather seen them expand in Cambridge, but this is great news nonetheless.

At least it'd be easy to get to Cambridge since it's near SS.
 
Mod Edit: Following posts split from here.

I welcome [Amazon's expansion in the Seaport] with open arms.

I definitely have mixed feelings.

1) urban office and retail developments are actually a good thing

I'm a YIMBY - you don't have to tell me office and retail development are a good thing - I was initially excited when I saw the headline. But I look at these things a little closer. I suppose I should have been more precise with my wording. One of my concerns is with the effects of Amazon and big tech growing fast in Boston, and accepting these jobs as growth being a good thing solely for the sake of growth without looking at their consequences. I applaud them for adding 3,000 jobs in Boston - it's a sign of our strength and standing at a national level, but looking at Amazon historically, as well as the recent announcements they have made regarding their efforts in all of the areas Boston does exceptionally well - robotics, AI/voice recognition (Alexa's success is credited greatly from the Boston team), and pharmaceuticals, implies they aren't close to being done hiring in Boston, and they'll make more announcements for thousands more as quickly as they need them. That's cause for concern for me - consistent growth is great, fast growth is a little more of a slippery slope with multiple consequences, much of what I already outlined - COL inflation, unhealthy/unsustainable competition for employees, etc. I've welcomed previous announcements from Facebook, Apple, and Google for adding hundreds of jobs over several years recently, but can't see Amazon at that small of a scale - they jump on opportunities they see fit at any cost so long as they are first and/or the best by brute force/numbers/money.

My primary concerns, though, as a Boston architecture and urban planning enthusiast, surround the effects on the urban environment, specifically the types of retail we get after adding several/tens of thousands more FAANG + similar workers on top of what's already here, and sprinkle them across the city over the next 10+ years, at Suffolk Downs, Dot. Ave, Exchange South End, Harvard/Allston, Union Sq., etc., and I worry that a large amount of the remaining culture, retail/bars, and small businesses, that we treasure across the city, not just in the Seaport, are going to have a hard time keeping up with the new trendy shops and cafes that these types of employees like to go to. It's been difficult seeing small businesses close their doors the past few months; we should be treasuring the remaining ones, not leaving them in the dust and letting chains and overly expensive shops and cafes take their place.

In my opinion, the urban life and culture of the Seaport is already pretty sterile and somewhat 'forced,' for lack of a better term. Despite this, I've been a fan of the Seaport - it's what the people that live there want, and the developers are making cash that's incentivizing this machine to keep moving forward, continuously bringing revenue to the city, more jobs for less-skilled workers, as you note, and keeping Boston as a whole afloat in the midst of an economic slowdown. Amazon's own PR piece today indicated that with their hires here, they've also indirectly added 13,400 jobs in other sectors so far, namely construction, logistics, healthcare, and professional services. I hope they can maintain that kind of scale with each job they add going forward, but I'm doubtful. I also question how they calculate their final numbers, but accept that, regardless, they are adding thousands of indirect jobs for less well-off residents.

I wonder how it will feel if the authenticity/charm that these local businesses and even buildings bring to neighborhoods that makes them attractive to local people keeps getting chipped at on its edges. I've visited Silicon Valley/San Fran multiple times, and something about the place doesn't sit right with me (although Santana Row seemed nice to me the first time, that was about it). Seattle sounds like its undergone the same kind of sterilization wherever Amazon exists, though I can't confirm myself. (Seattle's up there on my list)

"People-wise"/socially, I'm a little concerned, too. Related to your last point about "Amazon employment is bad," change is certainly not bad, but not all of it is good. From my view, we don't have the same workplace culture as Seattle, Si Valley, etc., and that's a good thing - that's one thing I hope doesn't change. I think FAANG creates a much more different kind of culture and workforce than what Boston has created and become accustomed to. From the select few people I know and from what I've read online, most of them are miserable, relative to regular/established tech, biotech, and even startups. The dynamics at play in these offices eliminate any hopes of work-life balance and healthy career decisions. This can easily leak into the established job market we already have here with a few years of turnover and job hopping. We're on a smaller scale here than Amazon in Seattle, but it's something to keep an eye out for. Like I said, I've been reading a bit about tipping points lately - this is mirroring the case studies and hypothetical examples pretty well.

3) more young people locating here (in addition to the hundreds of thousands that already do) is actually a good thing.

I should have noted, also, that I'm not entirely worried about keeping recent grads here. I welcome it and hope it happens with or without Amazon/big tech jobs. That said, there has to be reason(s) we have hundreds of thousands of students here that just leave after graduation - a big part of that is likely due to the lack of excitement Boston and its night life hold for a 20 something. I hope a shift like this brings more night-life into an otherwise dead city after 9pm. I just wonder how it will pan out - what those restaurants, bars, and clubs will look like, where they will be, and how the city will react, etc. It's difficult as it is with today's NIMBY's, as I recall the Insomnia Cookies at Downtown Boston getting pushback for its 3am closing time, and that's just for late-night cookies. I also wonder how the rental market will fare with grads that have lived in their college-level-quality apartments maybe opting to stay in and around those neighborhoods for a few years to save up and pay off their debt, or because it's what they're used to, and changing how rentals work in these primarily quick turnaround, cheap, and competitive neighborhoods.

Again, with this 3,000 job announcement, likely next to nothing noticeable will happen, but these small additions and changes can add up. When they add up quickly, we reach tipping points that are hard to come back from if it goes wrong, and it's something we should keep an eye on. I don't have solutions ready, and I don't think anybody has a golden solution that brings in thousands of well-paying jobs and revenue without gentrifying cities, but there are questions that are worth asking such that we can maybe begin to develop solutions when we set out on major neighborhood and city planning initiatives.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I definitely have mixed feelings.



I'm a YIMBY - you don't have to tell me office and retail development are a good thing - I was initially excited when I saw the headline. But I look at these things a little closer. I suppose I should have been more precise with my wording. One of my concerns is with the effects of Amazon and big tech growing fast in Boston, and accepting these jobs as growth being a good thing solely for the sake of growth without looking at their consequences. I applaud them for adding 3,000 jobs in Boston - it's a sign of our strength and standing at a national level, but looking at Amazon historically, as well as the recent announcements they have made regarding their efforts in all of the areas Boston does exceptionally well - robotics, AI/voice recognition (Alexa's success is credited greatly from the Boston team), and pharmaceuticals, implies they aren't close to being done hiring in Boston, and they'll make more announcements for thousands more as quickly as they need them. That's cause for concern for me - consistent growth is great, fast growth is a little more of a slippery slope with multiple consequences, much of what I already outlined - COL inflation, unhealthy/unsustainable competition for employees, etc. I've welcomed previous announcements from Facebook, Apple, and Google for adding hundreds of jobs over several years recently, but can't see Amazon at that small of a scale - they jump on opportunities they see fit at any cost so long as they are first and/or the best by brute force/numbers/money.

My primary concerns, though, as a Boston architecture and urban planning enthusiast, surround the effects on the urban environment, specifically the types of retail we get after adding several/tens of thousands more FAANG + similar workers on top of what's already here, and sprinkle them across the city over the next 10+ years, at Suffolk Downs, Dot. Ave, Exchange South End, Harvard/Allston, Union Sq., etc., and I worry that a large amount of the remaining culture, retail/bars, and small businesses, that we treasure across the city, not just in the Seaport, are going to have a hard time keeping up with the new trendy shops and cafes that these types of employees like to go to. It's been difficult seeing small businesses close their doors the past few months; we should be treasuring the remaining ones, not leaving them in the dust and letting chains and overly expensive shops and cafes take their place.

In my opinion, the urban life and culture of the Seaport is already pretty sterile and somewhat 'forced,' for lack of a better term. Despite this, I've been a fan of the Seaport - it's what the people that live there want, and the developers are making cash that's incentivizing this machine to keep moving forward, continuously bringing revenue to the city, more jobs for less-skilled workers, as you note, and keeping Boston as a whole afloat in the midst of an economic slowdown. Amazon's own PR piece today indicated that with their hires here, they've also indirectly added 13,400 jobs in other sectors so far, namely construction, logistics, healthcare, and professional services. I hope they can maintain that kind of scale with each job they add going forward, but I'm doubtful. I also question how they calculate their final numbers, but accept that, regardless, they are adding thousands of indirect jobs for less well-off residents.

I wonder how it will feel if the authenticity/charm that these local businesses and even buildings bring to neighborhoods that makes them attractive to local people keeps getting chipped at on its edges. I've visited Silicon Valley/San Fran multiple times, and something about the place doesn't sit right with me (although Santana Row seemed nice to me the first time, that was about it). Seattle sounds like its undergone the same kind of sterilization wherever Amazon exists, though I can't confirm myself. (Seattle's up there on my list)

"People-wise"/socially, I'm a little concerned, too. Related to your last point about "Amazon employment is bad," change is certainly not bad, but not all of it is good. From my view, we don't have the same workplace culture as Seattle, Si Valley, etc., and that's a good thing - that's one thing I hope doesn't change. I think FAANG creates a much more different kind of culture and workforce than what Boston has created and become accustomed to. From the select few people I know and from what I've read online, most of them are miserable, relative to regular/established tech, biotech, and even startups. The dynamics at play in these offices eliminate any hopes of work-life balance and healthy career decisions. This can easily leak into the established job market we already have here with a few years of turnover and job hopping. We're on a smaller scale here than Amazon in Seattle, but it's something to keep an eye out for. Like I said, I've been reading a bit about tipping points lately - this is mirroring the case studies and hypothetical examples pretty well.



I should have noted, also, that I'm not entirely worried about keeping recent grads here. I welcome it and hope it happens with or without Amazon/big tech jobs. That said, there has to be reason(s) we have hundreds of thousands of students here that just leave after graduation - a big part of that is likely due to the lack of excitement Boston and its night life hold for a 20 something. I hope a shift like this brings more night-life into an otherwise dead city after 9pm. I just wonder how it will pan out - what those restaurants, bars, and clubs will look like, where they will be, and how the city will react, etc. It's difficult as it is with today's NIMBY's, as I recall the Insomnia Cookies at Downtown Boston getting pushback for its 3am closing time, and that's just for late-night cookies. I also wonder how the rental market will fare with grads that have lived in their college-level-quality apartments maybe opting to stay in and around those neighborhoods for a few years to save up and pay off their debt, or because it's what they're used to, and changing how rentals work in these primarily quick turnaround, cheap, and competitive neighborhoods.

Again, with this 3,000 job announcement, likely next to nothing noticeable will happen, but these small additions and changes can add up. When they add up quickly, we reach tipping points that are hard to come back from if it goes wrong, and it's something we should keep an eye on. I don't have solutions ready, and I don't think anybody has a golden solution that brings in thousands of well-paying jobs and revenue without gentrifying cities, but there are questions that are worth asking such that we can maybe begin to develop solutions when we set out on major neighborhood and city planning initiatives.
Great post, can you share some links to these:

"I've been reading a bit about tipping points lately - this is mirroring the case studies and hypothetical examples pretty well."
 
I hope a shift like this brings more night-life into an otherwise dead city after 9pm. I just wonder how it will pan out - what those restaurants, bars, and clubs will look like, where they will be, and how the city will react, etc.

These people are going to be doing little other than working at Amazon and sleeping.
 
I definitely have mixed feelings.



I'm a YIMBY - you don't have to tell me office and retail development are a good thing - I was initially excited when I saw the headline. But I look at these things a little closer. I suppose I should have been more precise with my wording. One of my concerns is with the effects of Amazon and big tech growing fast in Boston, and accepting these jobs as growth being a good thing solely for the sake of growth without looking at their consequences. I applaud them for adding 3,000 jobs in Boston - it's a sign of our strength and standing at a national level, but looking at Amazon historically, as well as the recent announcements they have made regarding their efforts in all of the areas Boston does exceptionally well - robotics, AI/voice recognition (Alexa's success is credited greatly from the Boston team), and pharmaceuticals, implies they aren't close to being done hiring in Boston, and they'll make more announcements for thousands more as quickly as they need them. That's cause for concern for me - consistent growth is great, fast growth is a little more of a slippery slope with multiple consequences, much of what I already outlined - COL inflation, unhealthy/unsustainable competition for employees, etc. I've welcomed previous announcements from Facebook, Apple, and Google for adding hundreds of jobs over several years recently, but can't see Amazon at that small of a scale - they jump on opportunities they see fit at any cost so long as they are first and/or the best by brute force/numbers/money.

My primary concerns, though, as a Boston architecture and urban planning enthusiast, surround the effects on the urban environment, specifically the types of retail we get after adding several/tens of thousands more FAANG + similar workers on top of what's already here, and sprinkle them across the city over the next 10+ years, at Suffolk Downs, Dot. Ave, Exchange South End, Harvard/Allston, Union Sq., etc., and I worry that a large amount of the remaining culture, retail/bars, and small businesses, that we treasure across the city, not just in the Seaport, are going to have a hard time keeping up with the new trendy shops and cafes that these types of employees like to go to. It's been difficult seeing small businesses close their doors the past few months; we should be treasuring the remaining ones, not leaving them in the dust and letting chains and overly expensive shops and cafes take their place.

In my opinion, the urban life and culture of the Seaport is already pretty sterile and somewhat 'forced,' for lack of a better term. Despite this, I've been a fan of the Seaport - it's what the people that live there want, and the developers are making cash that's incentivizing this machine to keep moving forward, continuously bringing revenue to the city, more jobs for less-skilled workers, as you note, and keeping Boston as a whole afloat in the midst of an economic slowdown. Amazon's own PR piece today indicated that with their hires here, they've also indirectly added 13,400 jobs in other sectors so far, namely construction, logistics, healthcare, and professional services. I hope they can maintain that kind of scale with each job they add going forward, but I'm doubtful. I also question how they calculate their final numbers, but accept that, regardless, they are adding thousands of indirect jobs for less well-off residents.

I wonder how it will feel if the authenticity/charm that these local businesses and even buildings bring to neighborhoods that makes them attractive to local people keeps getting chipped at on its edges. I've visited Silicon Valley/San Fran multiple times, and something about the place doesn't sit right with me (although Santana Row seemed nice to me the first time, that was about it). Seattle sounds like its undergone the same kind of sterilization wherever Amazon exists, though I can't confirm myself. (Seattle's up there on my list)

"People-wise"/socially, I'm a little concerned, too. Related to your last point about "Amazon employment is bad," change is certainly not bad, but not all of it is good. From my view, we don't have the same workplace culture as Seattle, Si Valley, etc., and that's a good thing - that's one thing I hope doesn't change. I think FAANG creates a much more different kind of culture and workforce than what Boston has created and become accustomed to. From the select few people I know and from what I've read online, most of them are miserable, relative to regular/established tech, biotech, and even startups. The dynamics at play in these offices eliminate any hopes of work-life balance and healthy career decisions. This can easily leak into the established job market we already have here with a few years of turnover and job hopping. We're on a smaller scale here than Amazon in Seattle, but it's something to keep an eye out for. Like I said, I've been reading a bit about tipping points lately - this is mirroring the case studies and hypothetical examples pretty well.



I should have noted, also, that I'm not entirely worried about keeping recent grads here. I welcome it and hope it happens with or without Amazon/big tech jobs. That said, there has to be reason(s) we have hundreds of thousands of students here that just leave after graduation - a big part of that is likely due to the lack of excitement Boston and its night life hold for a 20 something. I hope a shift like this brings more night-life into an otherwise dead city after 9pm. I just wonder how it will pan out - what those restaurants, bars, and clubs will look like, where they will be, and how the city will react, etc. It's difficult as it is with today's NIMBY's, as I recall the Insomnia Cookies at Downtown Boston getting pushback for its 3am closing time, and that's just for late-night cookies. I also wonder how the rental market will fare with grads that have lived in their college-level-quality apartments maybe opting to stay in and around those neighborhoods for a few years to save up and pay off their debt, or because it's what they're used to, and changing how rentals work in these primarily quick turnaround, cheap, and competitive neighborhoods.

Again, with this 3,000 job announcement, likely next to nothing noticeable will happen, but these small additions and changes can add up. When they add up quickly, we reach tipping points that are hard to come back from if it goes wrong, and it's something we should keep an eye on. I don't have solutions ready, and I don't think anybody has a golden solution that brings in thousands of well-paying jobs and revenue without gentrifying cities, but there are questions that are worth asking such that we can maybe begin to develop solutions when we set out on major neighborhood and city planning initiatives.
Here's some more about the overall impact of Amazon on Greater Boston [well it includes some other bits outside the "Traditional; def of Greater Boston" in MA ]

Amazon Expands Boston Tech Hub With Plans to Create 3,000 New Jobs
Amazon’s new facility in Boston Seaport will add new office space for teams working in Alexa, AWS and Amazon Pharmacy

Since 2010, Amazon has created more than 20,000 full- and part-time jobs across Massachusetts and invested more than $6.2 billion in the Commonwealth, from customer fulfillment infrastructure to research facilities, retail locations, and more
Amazon currently has more than 400 roles open in the Boston area, from language engineers to software developers to machine learning scientists – those interested can apply at amazon.jobs

January 26, 2021 04:00 AM Eastern Standard Time
BOSTON--(BUSINESS WIRE)
Amazon (NASDAQ: AMZN) today announced plans to expand its Boston Tech Hub and create more than 3,000 new corporate and technology jobs over the next several years. The new roles will support teams across the company, including Alexa, Amazon Web Services (AWS), Amazon Robotics, and Amazon Pharmacy. Over the last decade, Amazon has invested more than $6.2 billion in Massachusetts and created more than 20,000 jobs across customer fulfillment, retail, corporate and technology functions.

“Our administration welcomes Amazon's continued efforts to invest in our communities”
“We’re proud to be creating more than 3,000 new jobs over the next several years at our Boston Tech Hub,” said Rohit Prasad, Vice President & Head Scientist for Alexa at Amazon. “Much of the technology that makes Alexa smarter every day is invented in Boston. Our teams here play a key role in driving Amazon’s innovations – from Alexa to AWS to Amazon Pharmacy – and help us keep delighting customers around the world. We look forward to continuing to be a strong community partner, helping to grow and diversify the local economy, and create new opportunities for Boston and its residents.”

The 3,000 jobs that Amazon plans to create in its Boston Tech Hub will include technology roles in software development, Artificial Intelligence and machine learning, along with non-tech corporate roles in product management, HR, finance, and more. Amazon already employs more than 3,700 people in its Boston Tech Hub.
 
Stefal, I understand your fears. I really do. But I think that a) on many fronts we are absolutely nowhere near there, b) on some fronts that fight is lost and we're already there, and c) on some fronts fears are overblown and are often a manifestation of distrust for others unlike one's self (I don't apply this to YOU personally, but to the general narrative).
One of my concerns is with the effects of Amazon and big tech growing fast in Boston, and accepting these jobs as growth being a good thing solely for the sake of growth without looking at their consequences. I applaud them for adding 3,000 jobs in Boston - it's a sign of our strength and standing at a national level, but looking at Amazon historically, as well as the recent announcements they have made regarding their efforts in all of the areas Boston does exceptionally well - robotics, AI/voice recognition [...], and pharmaceuticals, implies they aren't close to being done hiring in Boston, and they'll make more announcements for thousands more as quickly as they need them. That's cause for concern for me - consistent growth is great, fast growth is a little more of a slippery slope with multiple consequences, much of what I already outlined - COL inflation, unhealthy/unsustainable competition for employees, etc. I've welcomed previous announcements from Facebook, Apple, and Google for adding hundreds of jobs over several years recently, but can't see Amazon at that small of a scale - they jump on opportunities they see fit at any cost so long as they are first and/or the best by brute force/numbers/money.
This gets all into the details of what is "good fast" and what is "bad fast," but I just don't see the pace of tech growth here as concerning at all. The real growth industry in Boston is pharma / biotech / life sciences, which by all accounts is growing much faster here than FAANG-type work. We've seen easily more than a dozen office proposals and even existing office buildings get re-programmed for lab use in the last year; that's consistent with a city that is leaning harder towards life sciences, not one that is leaning towards tech.

If you were to apply many of your same concerns to life sciences rather than to tech, I could possibly be more on your boat. But I think the reason that we are quicker to judge tech workers and tech industries than life sciences is that we have a lower opinion of tech's final outputs (i.e., time-wasting web platforms vs life saving medicine). That's fine and fair, but when it comes to intermediate impact on an urban environment we shouldn't consider a company's end products. A biotech-sterilized Central Square is no less sterile than an Amazon-sterilized Seattle.

On COL, Boston is already a more expensive city than Seattle. And the best way to address COL is to address it directly through housing policy, not through limiting economic growth.
My primary concerns, though, as a Boston architecture and urban planning enthusiast, surround the effects on the urban environment, specifically the types of retail we get after adding several/tens of thousands more FAANG + similar workers on top of what's already here, and sprinkle them across the city over the next 10+ years, at Suffolk Downs, Dot. Ave, Exchange South End, Harvard/Allston, Union Sq., etc., and I worry that a large amount of the remaining culture, retail/bars, and small businesses, that we treasure across the city, not just in the Seaport, are going to have a hard time keeping up with the new trendy shops and cafes that these types of employees like to go to. It's been difficult seeing small businesses close their doors the past few months; we should be treasuring the remaining ones, not leaving them in the dust and letting chains and overly expensive shops and cafes take their place.

In my opinion, the urban life and culture of the Seaport is already pretty sterile and somewhat 'forced,' for lack of a better term. Despite this, I've been a fan of the Seaport - it's what the people that live there want, and the developers are making cash that's incentivizing this machine to keep moving forward, continuously bringing revenue to the city, more jobs for less-skilled workers, as you note, and keeping Boston as a whole afloat in the midst of an economic slowdown. Amazon [...] indicated that with their hires here, they've also indirectly added 13,400 jobs in other sectors so far, namely construction, logistics, healthcare, and professional services. I hope they can maintain that kind of scale with each job they add going forward, but I'm doubtful. I also question how they calculate their final numbers, but accept that, regardless, they are adding thousands of indirect jobs for less well-off residents.

I wonder how it will feel if the authenticity/charm that these local businesses and even buildings bring to neighborhoods that makes them attractive to local people keeps getting chipped at on its edges. I've visited Silicon Valley/San Fran multiple times, and something about the place doesn't sit right with me (although Santana Row seemed nice to me the first time, that was about it). Seattle sounds like its undergone the same kind of sterilization wherever Amazon exists, though I can't confirm myself. (Seattle's up there on my list)

"People-wise"/socially, I'm a little concerned, too. Related to your last point about "Amazon employment is bad," change is certainly not bad, but not all of it is good. From my view, we don't have the same workplace culture as Seattle, Si Valley, etc., and that's a good thing - that's one thing I hope doesn't change. I think FAANG creates a much more different kind of culture and workforce than what Boston has created and become accustomed to. From the select few people I know and from what I've read online, most of them are miserable, relative to regular/established tech, biotech, and even startups. The dynamics at play in these offices eliminate any hopes of work-life balance and healthy career decisions. This can easily leak into the established job market we already have here with a few years of turnover and job hopping. [...]
Here is where I think that ship has sailed. Amazon and other tech companies will do no more damage to Boston's "remaining culture" than all the other high-paying industries that have taken over our economy in the last ~25 years. That may sound pessimistic, but we shouldn't fear something coming in from out of town that has already taken over here by growing from within. And if that last sentence gives you any COVID flashbacks, remember that for the past 10 months, millions have been screaming (even on this here website) about the end of urban environments. As I mentioned before, COVID has really clarified that cities are either growing of they're shrinking. On the net an additional shot of workers and money will do more good for our urban environment in the post-COVID 2020s than it will do harm.

That is not at all to say we should just give up on protecting unique urban environments, but rather that combatting the Amazon boogie-man isn't actually the way to protect unique urban environments.

Regarding the "types" of jobs Amazon hires, remember that most Amazon workers are blue-collar transportation and logistics workers. So that always is something for consideration when you look at their high-level employment totals.

And on the "tech workplace culture eliminates work-life balance and healthy career choices" angle, I just don't buy it. Plenty of high-paying jobs mess with your work-life balance. This isn't an Amazon or a FAANG phenomenon, it's a high-intensity work phenomenon. I and a large portion of my social circle have had super stressful jobs here in Boston in consulting and medicine and law and pharma and biotech. Those jobs can be intense, and they can really suck at times and make you question if it's all worth it. But they come with money and prestige and privilege, and millions make the rational decision that it's worth it in the end. Millions of other people don't make that same decision, and that's fine. Nobody is forced to work for these companies, it's a decision that workers make, and it's a decision that is weighed in the market against other alternatives. Who are we to judge?

And to the extent that, as you say, Amazon is coming into established industries in Boston ("robotics, AI/voice recognition, and pharmaceuticals"), that should limit the impact that Amazon has on "culture." Players in those established Boston industries have a greater footprint here than Amazon does, so really Amazon will have to compete with them for workers more than the other way around. If working conditions at Amazon truly are that much worse than the competition, then workers will just move to the competition. Boston is nowhere near a monopsony situation where Amazon has market power in the labor market, especially in these established industries.
I should have noted, also, that I'm not entirely worried about keeping recent grads here. [...]
We've all debated young-adult life in Boston on this website for years, and I don't think an increased Amazon presence here will move the needle one way or another.
Again, with this 3,000 job announcement, likely next to nothing noticeable will happen, but these small additions and changes can add up. When they add up quickly, we reach tipping points that are hard to come back from if it goes wrong, and it's something we should keep an eye on.
On this, you're acknowledging that we "aren't there yet" but fear that one day we might "get there." I just don't think that's a valid reason for concern. A few thousand jobs here and there is a nice jolt of stimulant, but it's nowhere near enough to put us at risk of an overdose.
 
Last edited:
Stefal, I understand your fears. I really do. But I think that a) on many fronts we are absolutely nowhere near there, b) on some fronts that fight is lost and we're already there, and c) on some fronts fears are overblown and are often a manifestation of distrust for others unlike one's self (I don't apply this to YOU personally, but to the general narrative).

This gets all into the details of what is "good fast" and what is "bad fast," but I just don't see the pace of tech growth here as concerning at all. The real growth industry in Boston is pharma / biotech / life sciences, which by all accounts is growing much faster here than FAANG-type work. We've seen easily more than a dozen office proposals and even existing office buildings get re-programmed for lab use in the last year; that's consistent with a city that is leaning harder towards life sciences, not one that is leaning towards tech.

If you were to apply many of your same concerns to life sciences rather than to tech, I could possibly be more on your boat. But I think the reason that we are quicker to judge tech workers and tech industries than life sciences is that we have a lower opinion of tech's final outputs (i.e., time-wasting web platforms vs life saving medicine). That's fine and fair, but when it comes to intermediate impact on an urban environment we shouldn't consider a company's end products. A biotech-sterilized Central Square is no less sterile than an Amazon-sterilized Seattle.

On COL, Boston is already a more expensive city than Seattle. And the best way to address COL is to address it directly through housing policy, not through limiting economic growth.

Here is where I think that ship has sailed. Amazon and other tech companies will do no more damage to Boston's "remaining culture" than all the other high-paying industries that have taken over our economy in the last ~25 years. That may sound pessimistic, but we shouldn't fear something coming in from out of town that has already taken over here by growing from within. And if that last sentence gives you any COVID flashbacks, remember that for the past 10 months, millions have been screaming (even on this here website) about the end of urban environments. As I mentioned before, COVID has really clarified that cities are either growing of they're shrinking. On the net an additional shot of workers and money will do more good for our urban environment in the post-COVID 2020s than it will do harm.

That is not at all to say we should just give up on protecting unique urban environments, but rather that combatting the Amazon boogie-man isn't actually the way to protect unique urban environments.

Regarding the "types" of jobs Amazon hires, remember that most Amazon workers are blue-collar transportation and logistics workers. So that always is something for consideration when you look at their high-level employment totals.

And on the "tech workplace culture eliminates work-life balance and healthy career choices" angle, I just don't buy it. Plenty of high-paying jobs mess with your work-life balance. This isn't an Amazon or a FAANG phenomenon, it's a high-intensity work phenomenon. I and a large portion of my social circle have had super stressful jobs here in Boston in consulting and medicine and law and pharma and biotech. Those jobs can be intense, and they can really suck at times and make you question if it's all worth it. But they come with money and prestige and privilege, and millions make the rational decision that it's worth it in the end. Millions of other people don't make that same decision, and that's fine. Nobody is forced to work for these companies, it's a decision that workers make, and it's a decision that is weighed in the market against other alternatives. Who are we to judge?

And to the extent that, as you say, Amazon is coming into established industries in Boston ("robotics, AI/voice recognition, and pharmaceuticals"), that should limit the impact that Amazon has on "culture." Players in those established Boston industries have a greater footprint here than Amazon does, so really Amazon will have to compete with them for workers more than the other way around. If working conditions at Amazon truly are that much worse than the competition, then workers will just move to the competition. Boston is nowhere near a monopsony situation where Amazon has market power in the labor market, especially in these established industries.

We've all debated young-adult life in Boston on this website for years, and I don't think an increased Amazon presence here will move the needle one way or another.

On this, you're acknowledging that we "aren't there yet" but fear that one day we might "get there." I just don't think that's a valid reason for concern. A few thousand jobs here and there is a nice jolt of stimulant, but it's nowhere near enough to put us at risk of an overdose.

All good and valid points.

I'll admit that some of my fears and distrust stem from a longstanding distaste for/at Amazon as a corporation, and that I haven't really looked at the booming biotech industry in the same way, even though their growth rate is astounding, and I get excited every time a new lab building is proposed. I definitely agree that increased housing stock will alleviate the COL, and will reinforce the Boston 2030 V2.0 idea if growth continues at this rate.

The remaining shops and culture is being chipped at from multiple angles, and Amazon and likely soon-to-be others expanding their hub in Boston adds fuel to that fire, without it being the primary source. There's a careful approach to unique urban places that needs to be taken regardless of what kind of company moves into a neighborhood. It was fine in the Seaport, where the parking lots were adding next to nothing to the urban experience, or Assembly, which is mostly cut off by highways, but I'm more weary of Seaport-like expansion places like Union, DOT Ave, the South End, where established neighborhoods and some unique/characteristic shops and buildings run right up to these developments/planned neighborhoods.

Great post, can you share some links to these:

"I've been reading a bit about tipping points lately - this is mirroring the case studies and hypothetical examples pretty well."

Mostly summarized in The Tipping Point: How Little Things Make a Big Difference by Malcom Gladwell. He compares the spread of a lot of ideas, trends, products, and messages spread in a similar manner to an epidemic, and consist of three rules: the 80/20 rule, where 20% of people do 80% of the work, (in this context, knowing, handling, and effectively spreading/persuading information to others, meaning you only need a handful of people for something to take off), "the stickiness factor" of a message or idea (how much an idea or motto/message sticks with people), and "context," or the environment in which these ideas are spread.

I went down a google search rabbit hole around climate change tipping points, and came across his book.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JumboBuc

You need to put the impact of bio jobs into context --Greater Boston [in the greater sense] is not dominated by the high-PR value life-science companies -- they are probably 9th or 10th on the list of categories of major job creation enterprises top 10]:

1) Secondary and Higher Education
2) Medical [aka Hospitals, Health Insurers]
3) Retail & Wholesale [ex hospitality]
4) Tourist & Entertainment including hotels, restaurants, casinos, Museums, etc.
5) Financial Services -- aka Mutual Funds, Banks
6) Traditional and Big-name Technology e.g. Raytheon
7) Business Services aka Law & Accounting
8) Technical Consulting
9) Traditional Manufacturing including Medical Devices
9/10) Bio-tech / Pharma

From the perspective of Kendall and recently the Seaport -- employment, VC's and real-estate have been heavy on the Bio/pharma -- However outside Boston/Cambridge and a few pockets on Rt-128 [Lexington, Waltham] their impact on realestate and employment -- while growing is still not very significant

For comparison:
Mass-General-Brigham [aka Partners] employs nearly 80k people in MA [mostly Greater Boston]​
Harvard [20k], MIT, BU, UMass [23k], NE are in aggregate over 60K​
Raytheon and Analog Devices each employ over 4k as does GE​
Amazon in its various enterprises is over 17k​
Dell, Akamai, Mathworks, Kronos, AthenaHealth agregatge over 17k​
Stop & Shop is 20k+​
the Bio/pharmas​
the largest Bio/Pharma is Takeda [ ] 2nd is Sanofi [Genzyme] just around 5K and the next 3 on that list Novartis, Pfizer, Biogen are just over 2k each​
 
The best way to have a robust environment of shops, restaurants, and bars is to build, build, build. Build dense homes for future customers. Build retail spaces, lots of them!, so that commercial rents can fall and quirkier shops can open. Have lots of people working in offices who want places to eat and shop before during and after work.

It is really remarkable the diversity of shops you see in cities that are dense and cheaper --- Chicago for instance --- in part because there's both many customers and tons of retail space for businesses to start.

That's what will allow culture to evolve and grow rather than maintaining a simulacrum of the past.

A further note, too, it's remarkable how much nicer, more diverse, and, dare I say, more local even the fancy and glassy chains in the Seaport are than what was opening in Kendall a decade ago or in a downtown 20 years ago. It's part of the same ecosystem and it's far from all bad news.
 
These people are going to be doing little other than working at Amazon and sleeping.


.....and paying taxes........and, since they are mainly young and unattached, NOT being a very heavy burden on municipal services.

Boston is becoming a larger and more diverse city (economically, socially, culturally). It's not a bad thing for there to be a growing portion of tax revenue sources to fund other things.
 
.....and paying taxes........and, since they are mainly young and unattached, NOT being a very heavy burden on municipal services.

True. I do wonder if this would lead to the MBTA doing late(r) night bus service in the Seaport. The Silver Line does run pretty late but those lines I don't think would be that helpful.

PwC is near/next door? They have just as bad of rep on hours as Amazon does but without the stock options. I wonder what those kids do since living in the Seaport would def not be an option.
 

Back
Top