Acela & Amtrak NEC (HSR BOS-NYP-WAS and branches only)

I love passenger rail and I think there is no better place for it than the Northeast Corridor. But how does it make sense to spend $117 billion to
generate $900 million more a year
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??? And I presume that's revenue, not profit. I'm not saying it should have to pay for itself the same way a private sector project would, but shouldn't it pay for itself in 100 years?
 
You have to take in account the economic boost generated by this project. Revenue to each city could increase by the millions, from cost cutting, new businesses, people moving closer to the city (because these hubs only exist at cities) generating positive real estate development, and higher productivity.
 
AmericanFolkLegend said:
I love passenger rail and I think there is no better place for it than the Northeast Corridor. But how does it make sense to spend $117 billion to ??? And I presume that's revenue, not profit. I'm not saying it should have to pay for itself the same way a private sector project would, but shouldn't it pay for itself in 100 years?
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The actual amount in 2010 dollars is 40 billion, same as california HSR.
 
Its just downright depressing to think that this won't be done till i am in my late 40's/early 50's.



100927_cartoon_600.jpg
 
Yep, the crumbling continues. A 40 year old highway sign fell onto the Pike in Newton yesterday. The pole holding it up had been rotting for no one knows how long.

But by all means, let's vote for the alcohol tax cut so that it's cheaper to drink and drive on the increasingly dangerous roads.
 
Where are Providence, Worcester and New Haven in the plan? Seems like they should be connected, no?
 
KentXie said:
You have to take in account the economic boost generated by this project. Revenue to each city could increase by the millions, from cost cutting, new businesses, people moving closer to the city (because these hubs only exist at cities) generating positive real estate development, and higher productivity.
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Jose Gomez-Ibanez (a well know transportation expert at Harvard) did a comprehensive cost/benefit analysis on intracity rail that tried to incorporate all social and economic direct and indirect impacts. Reduced congestion, air pollution, traffic safety, carbon emissions, noise pollution, cost of capital, ripple effects of construction spending, business productivity, etc . . . Just a fabulous study (which unfortunately I can't find online). Anyway, the only Amtrak corridor that broke even when incorporating all social and economic costs was the Northeast Corridor. Every other route in the country was a loser. With some long-haul routes in middle America costing literally $1000's of dollars to society for each passenger trip.
Interestingly there was also a route to Florida that ferried cars and families from the midwest that almost broke even. I guess they charged a ton to take your car, which made up for the losses. Although I think that route has since been cancelled.
I'll try and find a copy of the study from my old grad school materials and post here.
 
Lrfox said:
Where are Providence, Worcester and New Haven in the plan? Seems like they should be connected, no?
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Worcester is a regional stop on the new main allignment. Providence and New Haven are bypassed by the new main line, but are given upgrades as a secondary route, so they will also see big improvements. But to go from Boston to NYC via the new shore line will not be 1.5 hours, more like 2.25 if I recall correctly from the chart buried deep in the PDF.
 
jass said:
The actual amount in 2010 dollars is 40 billion, same as california HSR.
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So the project is similar in scope to California, involving 8 states and DC. This makes me hopeful that it can be done. The hardest part is regional cooperation. From the Massachusetts perspective, I'd far rather see a few billion dollars go to this than South Coast Rail.
 
Lrfox said:
Where are Providence, Worcester and New Haven in the plan? Seems like they should be connected, no?
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I would think that with Providence and Worcester part of the MBTA Commuter Rail, they're relatively connected to Boston, and if you go to New Haven you have to deal with the crazy sailboaters who create such a bottleneck to cross the Connecticut River that you can kiss a <90 min trip to NYC goodbye.
 
Has anyone proposed using interstate highway medians as a ROW whenever possible? I-84 from I-90 to the start of the HOV lane outside Hartford for example...
 
Shepard said:
Has anyone proposed using interstate highway medians as a ROW whenever possible? I-84 from I-90 to the start of the HOV lane outside Hartford for example...
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That is part of this proposal. Just imagine flying past the Sturbridge tolls at 200 miles per hour and waving at the cars in the back-up! Although, I don't know exactly which sections of highway ROW they plan to use, so my illustration may be inaccurate. Somewhere in the document it says that the route will follow a combination of existing RR and highway ROWs, newly built tunnels, and newly acquired ROW.
 
HenryAlan said:
Just imagine flying past the Sturbridge tolls at 200 miles per hour and waving at the cars in the back-up!
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Quite seriously, the rhetoric of that image will do a lot to get people behind mass transit. You just have to have that experience of watching the train speed by while you're in a traffic jam a couple times for it to make a big psychological impact.
 
Lrfox said:
Where are Providence, Worcester and New Haven in the plan? Seems like they should be connected, no?
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The fact that these places "have to be connected" and have lobbies to argue as such is one of the reasons the current Acela isn't as effective as it could be. They could probably shave an hour just by eliminating all these intermediate stops on a super-express of some kind. Boston (South Station only)-New York-Philadelphia (maybe)-Washington only.
 
AdamBC said:
I would think that with Providence and Worcester part of the MBTA Commuter Rail, they're relatively connected to Boston, and if you go to New Haven you have to deal with the crazy sailboaters who create such a bottleneck to cross the Connecticut River that you can kiss a <90 min trip to NYC goodbye.
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I think this study also considered the double tracking of the New Haven to Springfield alignment and trains, service levels, added. I like how this connects to the Metro North spokes of Waterbury and Danbury.

I agree with the comments on Woonsocket/Providence and the MBTA. Extend the Franklin Branch one or two more stops and it reaches Woonsocket, so it connects to this plan. The Providence and Worcester freight line could become a passenger rail shuttle between Providence and Woonsocket. In some cases, it makes sense to make people come to HSR and not bring HSR to every city. Besides, Providence will continue to be served by Acela the plan says.
 
Shepard said:
Has anyone proposed using interstate highway medians as a ROW whenever possible? I-84 from I-90 to the start of the HOV lane outside Hartford for example...
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If these trains are operating at average speeds on the northern portion (New York to Boston) at 147 mph, there is no way trains can follow 84 or 90. They would follow too many tight curves and would have to slow down, thus making the travel time more.
 
czsz said:
The fact that these places "have to be connected" and have lobbies to argue as such is one of the reasons the current Acela isn't as effective as it could be. They could probably shave an hour just by eliminating all these intermediate stops on a super-express of some kind. Boston (South Station only)-New York-Philadelphia (maybe)-Washington only.
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Can't shave an hour between Boston and New York, curves between New Haven and Kingston aside, because MetroNorth restricts Acela speed between New Haven and New Rochelle as the tilt mechanism can't be used on that stretch. Slowest speed is on that section currently, and won't get much better.

Can't go higher speeds between New York and Washington until all the catenary is replaced with constant tension wire.
 
Below is a link to a photographic record of the building of a high-speed line between Amsterdam and Brussels. Each thumb to a gallery opens into dozens of pictures. But it gives you an idea of what it took to build a high-speed line near existing rights of way for railroads and highways.

http://www.open.ou.nl/hon/bijzond.htm
 
Politically, the route should include both Hartford and Providence, and maybe Long Island.

Also, if we are talking about spending $100 billion or so, the North-South rail link should be thrown in so HSR can extent to the Anderson Transportation Center in Woburn and maybe to New Hampshire or Maine.
 
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