Blue Line extension to Lynn

[TheRatmeister]

Swampscott onwards: More difficult. The ROW is not as wide; you're going to be acquiring property, widening overhead bridges, etc. It's certainly doable as far as the south end of Salem, but a new tunnel under Salem would be a massive and difficult project.

For a BLX to Salem project I'm not sure it's even worth using the tunnel in the first place. The terminus could be located at the Riley Plaza parking lot, either at surface level or elevated, or elevated over Washington St. Would this actually be a significant loss? I don't think it is, it's only 5-10 minutes walking from the existing station.

But ignoring that possibility, let's say relocated the station isn't possible. I'm still not sure the current tunnel is totally unworkable. Based on some quick napkin math, it seems like there's currently around 1000ft of the tunnel that isn't wide enough for double track from either the merge at the southern end or the bricked up split to Danvers at the northern end. If this 1000ft could be widened to be double tracked, this could actually be sufficient CR+BL operations. Even with 5 minute headways the single tracked section should be workable.

Last thing I'll mention: I still think the BL has a niche to Salem as a local service. With ~3 stops in Lynn and another 2-3 in Salem, I think a good number of both existing and new trips along the North Shore could use a local service in addition to an express to downtown service. Service like this could build Salem into a strong gateway city and anchor of the North Shore with its own demand and travel patterns rather than just another suburb. I agree that 10 min regional rail service would be "fine." But it's still leaving a fair amount on the table when the cost of an extension, especially to a southern terminus outside the tunnel, is so low.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Reply from the other thread. . .

Can someone who knows the details better tell me if extending the blue line to Vinnin Square area is possible just by having it go along the CR tracks?

Again with the Vinnin Square tunnel Crazy Pitch? Look...that's never going to happen. It's 2/3 mile off the Eastern Route ROW and requires 1-3/4 miles of tunneling to loop back to the Salem Branch rail trail ROW to get back on a trajectory to Downtown Salem. That's a cost blowout that'll kill the project deader than dead. The whole attractiveness of the Lynn-Salem extension is that the ridership to East Lynn, Swampscott, Salem State U., and Downtown Salem is very high (second-only to Wonderland-Lynn amongst all studied HRT proposals) while the cost is comparatively very low, meaning the cost-per-rider ratio is amongst the very best of any rapid transit project. That stops being the case when you try to shoehorn Vinnin Square, a not-particularly residentially-dense walkshed thanks to the adjacent mall and country club, at a billion-dollar blowout. You can plunk a low-margin intermediate stop on the Eastern ROW at Essex St./Danvers Rd. (call it "Hawthorne's Crossing") with a transfer to a frequency-enhanced 455 bus and serve Vinnin/Swampscott Mall quite well. Front-door service to Vinnin is simply not in the cards...ever.

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Reply from this thread. . .

For a BLX to Salem project I'm not sure it's even worth using the tunnel in the first place. The terminus could be located at the Riley Plaza parking lot, either at surface level or elevated, or elevated over Washington St. Would this actually be a significant loss? I don't think it is, it's only 5-10 minutes walking from the existing station.

But ignoring that possibility, let's say relocated the station isn't possible. I'm still not sure the current tunnel is totally unworkable. Based on some quick napkin math, it seems like there's currently around 1000ft of the tunnel that isn't wide enough for double track from either the merge at the southern end or the bricked up split to Danvers at the northern end. If this 1000ft could be widened to be double tracked, this could actually be sufficient CR+BL operations. Even with 5 minute headways the single tracked section should be workable.

Last thing I'll mention: I still think the BL has a niche to Salem as a local service. With ~3 stops in Lynn and another 2-3 in Salem, I think a good number of both existing and new trips along the North Shore could use a local service in addition to an express to downtown service. Service like this could build Salem into a strong gateway city and anchor of the North Shore with its own demand and travel patterns rather than just another suburb. I agree that 10 min regional rail service would be "fine." But it's still leaving a fair amount on the table when the cost of an extension, especially to a southern terminus outside the tunnel, is so low.

The project is not going to fare nearly as well on cost-per-rider if you have to touch the tunnel in any form, which is why the last time it was evaluated they absolutely drew the line at south-of-portal. Stub out on the surface at Mill St., slipping behind the police station at the top of the west-side retaining wall. Reanimate the pre-1987 CR station in the pit for superstation transfers, and put in a busway where the plumbing supply store on Margin St. currently is so the superstation can be its own breakaway bus hub for feeding a wider swath of North Shore with higher-frequency last-mile connections and more of them. With exception of needing to rationalize (or not...just leave it as is) the current CR station and garage, it ties the room together excellently.

 

[stellarfun]

Salem station is at image right. This proposed new apartment building is basically atop the old ROW from the Salem tunnel to Peabody.

Winn is the designated developer. This is part of a larger project, in which Winn redevelops two historic government buildings. One of these is seen at image left. The facades of the two government buildings remain. One building is the former Superior Court building.

See:https://www.winncompanies.com/news/...community-at-city-owned-lot-near-mbta-station

The city okayed the project in January 2023.

 

[737900er]

Since there seems to be renewed interest in this project, how much sense would it make to time it (and BLT) for completion in the mid 2040s to coincide with the Siemens car replacement?

 

[Teban54]

Since there seems to be renewed interest in this project, how much sense would it make to time it (and BLT) for completion in the mid 2040s to coincide with the Siemens car replacement?

While we're on the topic of fleet replacement, I wonder if it can also be timed with platform lengthening and downtown stations curve modifications to let Blue Line operate Orange Line-sized fleets, as F-Line suggested. It may even be necessary with the drastic ridership increase that BLX to Lynn is expected to bring.

I do think BLX-Lynn is at the top of the priority list after Red-Blue, but whether the state has the appetite to do two projects in quick succession is the question.

 

[TheRatmeister]

While we're on the topic of fleet replacement, I wonder if it can also be timed with platform lengthening and downtown stations curve modifications to let Blue Line operate Orange Line-sized fleets, as F-Line suggested. It may even be necessary with the drastic ridership increase that BLX to Lynn is expected to bring.

I do think BLX-Lynn is at the top of the priority list after Red-Blue, but whether the state has the appetite to do two projects in quick succession is the question.

If larger trains end up on the agenda I'd assume the process would look similar to the 1990s-2000s renovations in preparation for the current 6 car trains. But as a more basic question: the Blue Line would likely be one of the first to get CBTC, perhaps that avenue should be pursued instead to boost capacity through frequency instead. Just as an example, 2.5 minute headways are absolutely possible with CBTC, whereas doubling the length of trains (And platforms) would be an incredibly costly endeavor.

But this would still involve a lot of work that would make sense to bundle with a new fleet order.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

This proposed new apartment building is basically atop the old ROW from the Salem tunnel to Peabody.

No, it's not. It doesn't even fill out the property lines of that city parcel, much less encroach on any MBTA property.

 

[stellarfun]

This is the parcel being developed by Winn.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/ftoQyWhcvZNYQkVX9

The city of Salem's assessing map indicates this parcel is owned by the MBTA. The city's map indicates it owns no land on the north side of Bridge St. in the vicinity of the station and the garage

 

[Stlin]

Ehhhh I think technically you're both right. The "Crescent Lot" is owned by the Salem Redevelopment Authority (SRA), and the area that is currently covered by boulders is/was MBTA property, the "remnant parcel". The crescent parcel, outlined on the plan in red, is partially truncated by the station access road, but seems to represent the limits of what was the former turnout to the Peabody branch. The remnant parcel, which contains the former ROW, was deemed surplus to the MBTAs requirements in 2020 and is being transferred by the MBTA to the SRA to enable the development being envisioned, and will clearly be built on as seen in the approved proposal and site plan.

EDIT: I was relying on an outdated set of plans. The newest plans ca 2022 show the construction occupying only the SRA/City owned crescent parcel, with minimal building encroachment into the MBTA parcel except landscaping. Evidently the T changed course at some point and the land transfer may have never happened - though they may have retained it or just granted an easement, Winn and SRA can build on it. I would note that the building design occupied the remnant parcel through many design iterations until the last few.

 

[CheapLeak]

So does this basically kill any Danvers CR line?

 

[FK4]

Answering this question from the Red/Blue thread.

• Wonderland to Lynn: As discussed elsewhere, there's a couple different ways to go for this segment. It's a tradeoff between how far you continue along the BRB&L alignment towards Point of Pones (dealing with minor right-of-way encroachment) versus hopping onto the Eastern Route (dealing with the need to widen the causeway), and figuring out where to cross the Pines River and Saugus River. Once you cross into Lynn, the ROW is four tracks wide due to a never-completed 1910s quad-tracking project. (You can see that the Saugus Draw abutments are four tracks wide.) There's plenty of room for a station at Riverworks or West Lynn (Commercial Street) if desired. The former Lynn garage was designed with space for a future Blue Line station; hopefully whatever replaces it will as well.
• Lynn to Swampscott: There's a tight fit with a few buildings on the south side of the ROW for the first few blocks out of the station. From there, the ROW is fully four-track as far as Chatham Street. At Swampscott you probably have enough room to build a Blue Line station over the parking lot, but you'll have to move the historic station building.
• Swampscott onwards: More difficult. The ROW is not as wide; you're going to be acquiring property, widening overhead bridges, etc. It's certainly doable as far as the south end of Salem, but a new tunnel under Salem would be a massive and difficult project.

There's debate about whether Regional Rail will provide adequate service to Lynn, or if a Blue Line extension is needed. I fall on the side of the latter; I feel it needs rapid transit frequency that's beyond what Regional Rail can deliver. But in any case, the cost/benefit of any Blue Line extension beyond Lynn is doubtful; Swampscott doesn't have the density to justify a +1 extension beyond Lynn, and Salem is rather far out (14 miles from downtown) with a big density hole after Swampscott.

Good points. And re Lynn, as discussed elsewhere, being a major bus terminus for the north shore could seriously favorably impact north shore commutes by providing two rapid options from Lynn to downtown (BL and RR). With the BLX, you get a one seat to MGH and the northern part of the RL, so closer to Cambridge/Kendall etc. You get BL one seat connections to GL and OL, and with RR you get access to GL and OL as well… and if NSRL ever happens, to BB. Point being, getting BLX to Lynn seriously shifts the transit landscape for the entire N Shore.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

So does this basically kill any Danvers CR line?

It doesn't kill it, but it is doing the bare minimum to leave space.

I do wonder that, if a Danvers Line was to ever happen, if they would run trains just north of the current Salem station and then reverse back into the Danvers branch. Surely less than ideal, but it avoids this development, and it stops at Salem to boot.

 

[NoShJFK]

It’s a shame there isn’t room (or funding) for the BL to go further than Lynn.

My thought process behind Vinnin Square is not only would it attract from both Salem and Swampscott but it surely Marblehead commuters would make it the method of choice for daily commuting into the city.

If the logistics made it possible and the financing was there - I think the North Shore (Peabody/Danvers/Salem/Beverly) has enough demand to warrant not just a BLX but even 3 tracks (Express) as far North as the Cummings Center but thats as pie in the sky as humanly possible

 

[TheRatmeister]

It’s a shame there isn’t room (or funding) for the BL to go further than Lynn.

There's room for the BL to go to Salem, the alignment is wide enough already. (Although Swampscott station would need to be rebuilt.) It wouldn't be a particularly expensive build either.

My thought process behind Vinnin Square is not only would it attract from both Salem and Swampscott but it surely Marblehead commuters would make it the method of choice for daily commuting into the city.

Park and ride stations cannot make a transit line feasible, and should basically never be chosen over a route that is significantly easier or that would serve local passengers. They can warrant a one-stop extension on the end of a line, like Alewife or Quincy Adams if the ROW is already there or the line is already being built and the tunnel ends up being 3 miles instead of 2, but they're not the make or break of the line. Compare ridership at Oak Grove or Wellington to Malden Center, or at Braintree or Quincy Adams to Quincy Center or North Quincy.

If the logistics made it possible and the financing was there - I think the North Shore (Peabody/Danvers/Salem/Beverly) has enough demand to warrant not just a BLX but even 3 tracks (Express) as far North as the Cummings Center but thats as pie in the sky as humanly possible

This is how BLX would work, just with the CR providing express service. (And it would mostly be quad-tracked because triple track limits you to peak direction express only, at least for reasonably high frequencies over long distances.)