Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

Why do people think that third world has worse passenger rail infrastructure OR public transport than USA? It might be not as safe, but it does exist, and covers more of the population.
There are a lot of things that the third world has to catch up in, but public transport might not be one of them?
Because colloquially, "third-world" just means terrible to most people. The fact that the actual third world tends to have better passenger rail coverage than most of the USA is a damning indictment on the state of passenger rail in this country.
 
What exactly is the point of building a bunch of low ridership rail that still has third world country infrastructure (single track, single platform, diesel run, surrounded by a sea of parking rather than in a town center)? Like I know the projected ridership/headways will be low enough that a single platform/track is all you need, but given that I can think of a thousand projects that will benefit more people for a similar cost. Like electrification out to 128 and fixing the old colony pinch.

Raise rents.
 
Because colloquially, "third-world" just means terrible to most people. The fact that the actual third world tends to have better passenger rail coverage than most of the USA is a damning indictment on the state of passenger rail in this country.
Yes. India is electrifying its entire rail network. Massachusetts (and the rest of the US) isn't anywhere near accomplishing that.
 
Yes. India is electrifying its entire rail network. Massachusetts (and the rest of the US) isn't anywhere near accomplishing that.

That rather depends on your metric - the US has the best highway and domestic air travel systems in the world, we've just decided those are evil after we achieved them.
 
That rather depends on your metric - the US has the best highway and domestic air travel systems in the world, we've just decided those are evil after we achieved them.
I'd argue we have the most extensive highway system, not the "best" highway system. We've built it out so incredibly extensively and made it the primary thing to use for transportation in most places without really considering how the upkeep of them would be funded resulting in a state of disrepair putting a large quantity of the system in the same realm as a so-called "third world country." They were considered evil by the majority of citizens before their existence and then were subsidized and propagandized to the point of the majority thinking they're the greatest thing.

What exactly is the point of building a bunch of low ridership rail that still has third world country infrastructure (single track, single platform, diesel run, surrounded by a sea of parking rather than in a town center)? Like I know the projected ridership/headways will be low enough that a single platform/track is all you need, but given that I can think of a thousand projects that will benefit more people for a similar cost. Like electrification out to 128 and fixing the old colony pinch.
These two cities are the 9th and 10th largest cities in the state and have in particular been largely neglected for decades of economic development. I see this as partially a topic of justice for these communities to get the return of rail service to the economic hub of the state. The parking is largely the result of the mistake of downtown freeway development demolishing where the railway used to interface with downtown. The parking lot already exists and I'd imagine it'd be redeveloped in the coming years with the establishment of better service to the city because for some reason there isn't a lot of future thinking in the US, only deciding what to do based on the current environment.

The reality of the situation is that an extension to a new (but in actuality old) service area is much more enticing for people and politicians than upgrading existing infrastructure. In this specific case, I'd argue that bringing rail service to such large population centers ASAP is a better prioritization over some electrification or overall Old Colony service frequency in order to demonstrate current demand to the powers that be. With how things currently stand, even the Foxboro pilot exceeded ridership projections and I'd expect these cities combined with the housing crisis to do so as well. This project doing well could be a catalyst to further along Phase II plans.

The concerns about slow speed and lack of trips (due to the Phase 1 alignment) definitely deserve more attention.
In the case of the travel times, they're expected to be 90min from the termini to South Station, which is comparable to the Fitchburg Line and Worcester Local, and those trains still saw about 400 and 1300 (I know express ridership is probably the majority of this) riders daily back in 2018 when schedules weren't as clockface. These new branches will uniquely have direct access to jobs in Dorchester and Brockton which could be a draw for individuals. This makes the line's short-term configuration potentially even more useful to riders as this travel time would be less than the end-to-end 90 minutes. The lack of trips is concerning but seemingly a constraint of available equipment and the obvious Quincy single tracking.


None of this is meant to be a criticism as these are very valid concerns that should be addressed and discussed, I just like to bring an optimistic outlook or positivity to anything I can.
 
That rather depends on your metric - the US has the best highway and domestic air travel systems in the world, we've just decided those are evil after we achieved them.
Very few people in the US are condemning the highway system as a whole, just relooking at some problematic segments from the highway building feeding frenzy of the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, especially in some key urban locations. Even Dwight D. Eisenhower, the chief initiator and proponent of the Interstate Highway System, was appalled when he was shown plans for proposed Interstate highways slicing through the hearts of major cities.
 
These two cities are the 9th and 10th largest cities in the state and have in particular been largely neglected for decades of economic development. I see this as partially a topic of justice for these communities to get the return of rail service to the economic hub of the state. The parking is largely the result of the mistake of downtown freeway development demolishing where the railway used to interface with downtown. The parking lot already exists and I'd imagine it'd be redeveloped in the coming years with the establishment of better service to the city because for some reason there isn't a lot of future thinking in the US, only deciding what to do based on the current environment.

The reality of the situation is that an extension to a new (but in actuality old) service area is much more enticing for people and politicians than upgrading existing infrastructure. In this specific case, I'd argue that bringing rail service to such large population centers ASAP is a better prioritization over some electrification or overall Old Colony service frequency in order to demonstrate current demand to the powers that be. With how things currently stand, even the Foxboro pilot exceeded ridership projections and I'd expect these cities combined with the housing crisis to do so as well. This project doing well could be a catalyst to further along Phase II plans.


In the case of the travel times, they're expected to be 90min from the termini to South Station, which is comparable to the Fitchburg Line and Worcester Local, and those trains still saw about 400 and 1300 (I know express ridership is probably the majority of this) riders daily back in 2018 when schedules weren't as clockface. These new branches will uniquely have direct access to jobs in Dorchester and Brockton which could be a draw for individuals. This makes the line's short-term configuration potentially even more useful to riders as this travel time would be less than the end-to-end 90 minutes. The lack of trips is concerning but seemingly a constraint of available equipment and the obvious Quincy single tracking.


None of this is meant to be a criticism as these are very valid concerns that should be addressed and discussed, I just like to bring an optimistic outlook or positivity to anything I can.
The main concern about SCR Phase 1 is that if its ridership tanks - possibly even lower than projections when the project started, and there's a significant chance it might - it may kill the much-needed Phase 2 outright. Politically speaking, when a project is not doing well (especially one that's not seen as crucial or a priority), people generally don't pour even more money into it.

I did an estimate of likely frequencies for each branch here on Reddit. TL;DR: One train every 2-2.5 hours in peak direction. To me, that's a much bigger issue than travel time, whether you're commuting to Boston, Dorchester or Brockton. Not to mention that Fall River and New Bedford don't get equal access - if one city gets a good time slot, the other is either 1 hour too early or 1 hour too late.

Such an outcome would be the antithesis of justice for Fall River and New Bedford. I hope it doesn't happen, but...
 
Very few people in the US are condemning the highway system as a whole, just relooking at some problematic segments from the highway building feeding frenzy of the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, especially in some key urban locations. Even Dwight D. Eisenhower, the chief initiator and proponent of the Interstate Highway System, was appalled when he was shown plans for proposed Interstate highways slicing through the hearts of major cities.

I don't think that's consistent with the "no funding for highways at all" theme we hear a lot on here.

I'd argue we have the most extensive highway system, not the "best" highway system. We've built it out so incredibly extensively and made it the primary thing to use for transportation in most places without really considering how the upkeep of them would be funded resulting in a state of disrepair putting a large quantity of the system in the same realm as a so-called "third world country." They were considered evil by the majority of citizens before their existence and then were subsidized and propagandized to the point of the majority thinking they're the greatest thing.

It's the best. In 2023, approximately 4% of National Highway System bridges by size were in poor condition (it's higher in MA). Similarly, the last time it was measured, the one measure of pavement quality collected large-scale by FHWA had the same 4% of Interstates in poor condition. As a high-level statement, 96% of the major highways in the US are in fair or better condition at the moment. Given (as you point out) the breadth of the system and its age, I don't think that's awful. Other countries may have much smaller systems that are in better condition by some metrics, but the breadth of the system - the way it opens up every corner of the country to economic opportunity - is unmatched in the world.

And I think you kind of made the same point I did: for decades the US considered the system it was building to be the ideal solution. Whether you consider that "propaganda" (and outside of a few GM ads I think I struggle to see it that way), it was backed up by facts: the US economy and internal infrastructure for the movement of goods produced the strongest economy in the history of humans. Highways were definitely not seen as "evil by the majority of citizens" - some specific urban freeways maybe, but not the Interstate System generally.

There are very real negative externalities of highways, but the propaganda today runs the other direction, and it has convinced a relatively small number of mostly city-dewlling Americans that the system they've invested in and depended upon for seven decades is now an evil mistake.
 
I don't think that's consistent with the "no funding for highways at all" theme we hear a lot on here.



It's the best. In 2023, approximately 4% of National Highway System bridges by size were in poor condition (it's higher in MA). Similarly, the last time it was measured, the one measure of pavement quality collected large-scale by FHWA had the same 4% of Interstates in poor condition. As a high-level statement, 96% of the major highways in the US are in fair or better condition at the moment. Given (as you point out) the breadth of the system and its age, I don't think that's awful. Other countries may have much smaller systems that are in better condition by some metrics, but the breadth of the system - the way it opens up every corner of the country to economic opportunity - is unmatched in the world.

And I think you kind of made the same point I did: for decades the US considered the system it was building to be the ideal solution. Whether you consider that "propaganda" (and outside of a few GM ads I think I struggle to see it that way), it was backed up by facts: the US economy and internal infrastructure for the movement of goods produced the strongest economy in the history of humans. Highways were definitely not seen as "evil by the majority of citizens" - some specific urban freeways maybe, but not the Interstate System generally.

There are very real negative externalities of highways, but the propaganda today runs the other direction, and it has convinced a relatively small number of mostly city-dewlling Americans that the system they've invested in and depended upon for seven decades is now an evil mistake.
The complete obliteration of all competing economies by a half decade of apocalyptic war is what created America's post-war economic boom. It wasn't Ford and GM doing some kind of wonderful alchemy.
 
I did an estimate of likely frequencies for each branch here on Reddit. TL;DR: One train every 2-2.5 hours in peak direction. To me, that's a much bigger issue than travel time, whether you're commuting to Boston, Dorchester or Brockton. Not to mention that Fall River and New Bedford don't get equal access - if one city gets a good time slot, the other is either 1 hour too early or 1 hour too late.

Such an outcome would be the antithesis of justice for Fall River and New Bedford. I hope it doesn't happen, but...
I took the project page wording to mean there would be 3 bi-directional peak round trips per branch with some short turning at M/L to reach 26 total round trips. They bought additional equipment specifically to be ready in time for increased trains on the line with SCR which suggests an increase in service. As-is the line runs only 14 round trips per day. 26 would almost be a doubling of service so I think 30min frequencies will be coming to Brockton rather than 120+min. Not sure what the off-peak frequency part means though. 3 morning plus 3 evening peak each branch for a total of 12 round trips. Plus the 3 each(?) off-peak midday and 3 evening are another 12 for 24 round trips. Add a couple short turns and you hit 26 and the numbers they mentioned. With the capacity restrictions on the shared section I think the losers here would be Greenbush and Kingston getting a service reduction.
Your analysis could be the correct one though and that would indeed be devastating for the service area.
 
I think the losers here would be Greenbush and Kingston getting a service reduction.

That might be my biggest concern. SCR is not only worthless, it's going to end up harming existing service. You can only send so many trains and there's only so much room at South Station.

You could extend this to E-W rail too.
 
That might be my biggest concern. SCR is not only worthless, it's going to end up harming existing service. You can only send so many trains and there's only so much room at South Station.

You could extend this to E-W rail too.
Top priorities IMO are: Expand South Station (eliminate the USPS bldg and expand the SS trackage), and double track the Old Colony line through Boston and Quincy.
 
Last edited:
Top priorities IMO are: Expand South Station (eliminate the USPS bldg and expand the SS trackage), and double track the Old Colony line through Boston and Quincy.
And if at all possible give SS a few underground tracks to at least give a starting point for NSRL, yes it would be more expensive now but I suspect we would really regret it later on.
 
And if at all possible give SS a few underground tracks to at least give a starting point for NSRL, yes it would be more expensive now but I suspect we would really regret it later on.
That would be pointless. SS Under is pretty much the single most expensive component for NSRL. You have to build mile-long lead tunnels to get down there. And if you're going to be TBM'ing the TBM has to have an exit chute otherwise it's going to stay embedded down there forever blocking any future tunneling progress.

There is no installment plan for NSRL. If we're building it, we're building it all at once.
 
That might be my biggest concern. SCR is not only worthless, it's going to end up harming existing service. You can only send so many trains and there's only so much room at South Station.

You could extend this to E-W rail too.
The South Station bottleneck, beyond the obvious limited track space, primarily the result of the very antiquated interlocking which is officially undergoing fully funded modernization and expected to complete in 2028. I think the current system is only capable of managing a few trains in the interlocking at a time, this restricts how quickly a train can be turned around. The station moves about 20tph currently at peak. With better signaling and more efficient turnaround times transitmatters estimates the station can handle 26-30tph which I think is a little optimistic given similar sized stations like Glasgow Central only handle about 24tph in their terminal station that has 2 more tracks.
*caveat to this below

While SS Expansion or NSRL is surely needed for frequent regional rail I don’t think there will be a problem with E-W Rail as their plan stands. Amtrak has certain slots reserved for their trains at South Station that are I think 1 or 2 30min slots of each hour or something. *This effectively reduces non-Amtrak use to 11-12 of the 13 tracks. But what this does mean is that Amtrak needs to be able to fit any E-W service into its existing slots without taking away from the Commuter Rail. At least I would think so.
 
I was going to say that a comparison of East-West and SCR is not really warranted in that there is no way to handicap East-West by sending it on a roundabout route like SCR Phase I. There is one route to Springfield: the MBTA Worcester Line to its namesake city and then CSX's Boston Subdivision to Springfield. However, I just checked the Lake Shore Limited timetable and it's about 2.5 hours from South Station to Springfield Union Station. Drive time is a mere 1.5 hours. Even assuming traffic bumps that number up, I doubt it would be consistently bad enough to close a one-hour gap very often. Unless the East-West upgrades produce substantial timesavings, I am a little worried that it could indeed be a let-down that saps will for more rail upgrades in the state.
 
I was going to say that a comparison of East-West and SCR is not really warranted in that there is no way to handicap East-West by sending it on a roundabout route like SCR Phase I. There is one route to Springfield: the MBTA Worcester Line to its namesake city and then CSX's Boston Subdivision to Springfield.

There is no room for it on the Worcester Line without hurting existing service. At 2019 service levels, they were pushing 4 tph already. Not sure if you can do more, esp given the line's reputation of being so late.

I believe the LSL (and cargo runs) runs outside of realistic commuting patterns.
 
I was going to say that a comparison of East-West and SCR is not really warranted in that there is no way to handicap East-West by sending it on a roundabout route like SCR Phase I. There is one route to Springfield: the MBTA Worcester Line to its namesake city and then CSX's Boston Subdivision to Springfield. However, I just checked the Lake Shore Limited timetable and it's about 2.5 hours from South Station to Springfield Union Station. Drive time is a mere 1.5 hours. Even assuming traffic bumps that number up, I doubt it would be consistently bad enough to close a one-hour gap very often. Unless the East-West upgrades produce substantial timesavings, I am a little worried that it could indeed be a let-down that saps will for more rail upgrades in the state.
The current grant should shrink BOS-SPG travel times down to about 2:05 by uprating the track speed. On a Friday afternoon that's par or slightly better than the increasingly horrible car commute.
 

Back
Top