General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

HenryAlan said:
My understanding is that the main capacity constraint is lack of dispatching staff. More trains can't run until that issue is resolved.
Click to expand...
Yes although I think @KentXie is pointing out that the T was already running x trainsets with current dispatching staff; this new problem has reduced the trainsets to, like, x - 9 (can’t remember exact number), so in theory the existing staff should be able to handle any number of trains back up to the original x.
 
^ Now, that all being said... running short trains feels like the kind of break from "business as usual" or "how we've always done it" that frankly I don't have confidence in the T to execute anymore -- both in that the T is generally shockingly provincial, but also that it's not clear to me that the T has the expertise to be flexible in that kind of way. (I assume running shorter trains would have impact on, I don't know, braking distance or something operational like that, and I would not be super confident that at this point that there is a robust enough understanding at the T to be comfortable with that.)
 
Delvin4519 said:
Which bus routes would make the most sense to shorten, and which bus routes would still need to continue on to Forest Hills? In some cases, a bus route or so would still need to continue to Forest Hills to maintain connections with other bus routes, similar to how the 77 continues past Porter onwards to Harvard, even with the Red Line paralleling it.

The 51 seems like a no brainer to cut back to Roslindale immediately if the OLX were to happen. The 40 and the 50, I think also should be shortened. 34E is also a good candidate. In the meantime, I think the regular 34, 35, 36, 37, should all continue on to Forest Hills for direct connections with other buses. So about 4 of the 8 bus routes would be shortened.

Then, if OLX2 to West Roxbury were to happen. The 35 and the 37 should all be axed, and instead run a modified 35 using the 37's terminus, and run to Dedham Mall as a combined 37/35 route, picking up at West Roxbury. The 36 would continue to make local stops out to Forest Hills. This leaves only the 36 and the 34 as the last remaining 2 bus routes running between Roslindale and Forest Hills. This is similar to how the 39 operates between Heath and Copley.
Click to expand...

The 37 is being eliminated as part of the bus network redesign (BNRD). The 52 is being re-routed over Spring, Centre, Lagrange, Lasell/Vermont to serve part of the current 37 territory, so there is no need to consider that route in this thought process.

You're right that the 51 is the most "no-brainer" to cut back to Roslindale in the case of OLX to Roslindale. Other than that, it would worth watching how ridership would respond to OLX and make a data-driven decision about which routes to cut back to Roslindale Village.

In my estimation, the next most logical route to cut back to Rozzie would be the 34. After the BNRD, the 34's route will be nearly entirely duplicated by other complimentary routes to Forest Hills.

If you were to cut one more route back to Rozzie, it would make sense for it to be the 36. In that scenario, there would still be a one-seat ride from the outbound terminus of the 36 (Dedham Mall) to Forest Hills, via the 35, and just a short walk to the 34E. Most of the route is duplicated by the 35, and supplemented by the Needham Line, so there would be very little, if any, transit connections lost there.

That leaves you with five bus routes serving Washington St (Roslindale) to the Forest Hills Upper Busway: the 30 (1+ BPH), 34E (1+ BPH), 35 (2+ BPH), 40 (1+ BPH), 50 (1+ BPH), leaving that corridor with 6+ BPH, down from 11+ BPH post-BNRD. Like you alluded to, that leaves the Washington Street (Rozzie - Forest Hills) as an appropriate key-bus corridor between two HRT transit stops along the same line, for which there is plenty of precedent. For example, that is true for the following corridors post-BNRD:
  • Mass Ave between Porter and Harvard
  • Mass Ave between Harvard and Central
  • Mass/Main between Central and Kendall
  • Tremont between Ruggles and Roxbury Crossing
  • Columbus between Roxbury Crossing and Jackson Square
 
bigeman312 said:
The 37 is being eliminated as part of the bus network redesign (BNRD). The 52 is being re-routed over Spring, Centre, Lagrange, Lasell/Vermont to serve part of the current 37 territory, so there is no need to consider that route in this thought process.

You're right that the 51 is the most "no-brainer" to cut back to Roslindale in the case of OLX to Roslindale. Other than that, it would worth watching how ridership would respond to OLX and make a data-driven decision about which routes to cut back to Roslindale Village.

In my estimation, the next most logical route to cut back to Rozzie would be the 34. After the BNRD, the 34's route will be nearly entirely duplicated by other complimentary routes to Forest Hills.

If you were to cut one more route back to Rozzie, it would make sense for it to be the 36. In that scenario, there would still be a one-seat ride from the outbound terminus of the 36 (Dedham Mall) to Forest Hills, via the 35, and just a short walk to the 34E. Most of the route is duplicated by the 35, and supplemented by the Needham Line, so there would be very little, if any, transit connections lost there.

That leaves you with five bus routes serving Washington St (Roslindale) to the Forest Hills Upper Busway: the 30 (1+ BPH), 34E (1+ BPH), 35 (2+ BPH), 40 (1+ BPH), 50 (1+ BPH), leaving that corridor with 6+ BPH, down from 11+ BPH post-BNRD. Like you alluded to, that leaves the Washington Street (Rozzie - Forest Hills) as an appropriate key-bus corridor between two HRT transit stops along the same line, for which there is plenty of precedent. For example, that is true for the following corridors post-BNRD:
  • Mass Ave between Porter and Harvard
  • Mass Ave between Harvard and Central
  • Mass/Main between Central and Kendall
  • Tremont between Ruggles and Roxbury Crossing
  • Columbus between Roxbury Crossing and Jackson Square
Click to expand...
I wonder why you chose to cut the 34 and not the 34E. The latter, being the much longer route, would benefit from having a shorter trip for greater reliability.
 
Teban54 said:
I wonder why you chose to cut the 34 and not the 34E. The latter, being the much longer route, would benefit from having a shorter trip for greater reliability.
Click to expand...

Due to duplication. The 34 is nearly entirely duplicated, so a one-seat ride to Forest Hills is not severed. The 34E is not duplicated (post-BNRD) for the last 8 miles of its route, so I aimed to keep the transit connections that exist today. I could see an argument either way though. Ultimately it comes to whether you want to prioritize retaining connectivity or prioritizing reliability.

EDITED TO ADD: Alternate crazy-transit-pitch solutions could be to:
  • Add an additional platform at Forest Hills (I've sketched this out before and it's feasible) a la Ruggles, to make Forest Hills a full-fledged Commuter Rail stop serving all Franklin Line trains.
  • Add an infill stop on the Orange Line at South/Archdale ('Arboretum')
These would go a long way towards enabling more truncation to Roslindale Village. In fact, the only upper busway bus (post-BNRD) that should keep running to Forest Hills in such a scenario would be the T39. You could reroute the T39 to the lower busway and have some TOD on the upper busway's current footprint.
 
Last edited:
bigeman312 said:
The 37 is being eliminated as part of the bus network redesign (BNRD). The 52 is being re-routed over Spring, Centre, Lagrange, Lasell/Vermont to serve part of the current 37 territory, so there is no need to consider that route in this thought process.

You're right that the 51 is the most "no-brainer" to cut back to Roslindale in the case of OLX to Roslindale. Other than that, it would worth watching how ridership would respond to OLX and make a data-driven decision about which routes to cut back to Roslindale Village.

In my estimation, the next most logical route to cut back to Rozzie would be the 34. After the BNRD, the 34's route will be nearly entirely duplicated by other complimentary routes to Forest Hills.

If you were to cut one more route back to Rozzie, it would make sense for it to be the 36. In that scenario, there would still be a one-seat ride from the outbound terminus of the 36 (Dedham Mall) to Forest Hills, via the 35, and just a short walk to the 34E. Most of the route is duplicated by the 35, and supplemented by the Needham Line, so there would be very little, if any, transit connections lost there.

That leaves you with five bus routes serving Washington St (Roslindale) to the Forest Hills Upper Busway: the 30 (1+ BPH), 34E (1+ BPH), 35 (2+ BPH), 40 (1+ BPH), 50 (1+ BPH), leaving that corridor with 6+ BPH, down from 11+ BPH post-BNRD. Like you alluded to, that leaves the Washington Street (Rozzie - Forest Hills) as an appropriate key-bus corridor between two HRT transit stops along the same line, for which there is plenty of precedent. For example, that is true for the following corridors post-BNRD:
  • Mass Ave between Porter and Harvard
  • Mass Ave between Harvard and Central
  • Mass/Main between Central and Kendall
  • Tremont between Ruggles and Roxbury Crossing
  • Columbus between Roxbury Crossing and Jackson Square
Click to expand...

Teban54 said:
I wonder why you chose to cut the 34 and not the 34E. The latter, being the much longer route, would benefit from having a shorter trip for greater reliability.
Click to expand...

Yea, generally, suburban bus routes should generally terminate at the first rapid transit station available. More local bus routes (i.e. former streetcar routes), are generally more desirable to maintain one seat rides to other bus routes.

In this case, 34E needs to cut back to Roslindale with OLX, 34 should provide local service to Forest Hills.

Honestly, my though atitude for BNRD, is to generally leave the suburban bus routes alone, and not to alter them, aside from feeding into the nearest rapid transit station. Most of these suburban routes are hourly, so changing connections and terminai for these routes is very problematic. Plus, since they serve low density areas anyway, extending them longer, or sending those buses elsewhere, only drains resources from increasing frequency in the higher ridership inner core.

In the case of the 52, BNRD aside, I'd prefer to leave it as is in the current day. If OLX were to be extended to VFW Parkway or Baker St. (to serve VA Hospital with a closer rapid transit stop), the 52 would have a rapid transit connection.
 
Delvin4519 said:
Yea, generally, suburban bus routes should generally terminate at the first rapid transit station available.
Click to expand...

This is far too generalized of a statement to be true. Sometimes, for connectivity, it's better to continue to a hub and enable transfers. For example, the 132 continuing beyond Oak Grove to Malden Center. This situation is the proper one to retain connectivity to the buses that serve Malden Center. If you were running the T and said "we are truncating the 132 to Oak Grove because suburban bus routes should terminate at the first rapid transit station available," you would be making transit worse in the name of serving an imaginary and self-imposed benchmark.

Sometimes, it's best for suburban bus routes to terminate that the first rapid transit station available. Sometimes, it's best for these routes to terminate at a hub located further down the line. There is not a one-size-fits-all solution like the statement you've made.
 
bigeman312 said:
This is far too generalized of a statement to be true. Sometimes, for connectivity, it's better to continue to a hub and enable transfers. For example, the 132 continuing beyond Oak Grove to Malden Center. This situation is the proper one to retain connectivity to the buses that serve Malden Center. If you were running the T and said "we are truncating the 132 to Oak Grove because suburban bus routes should terminate at the first rapid transit station available," you would be making transit worse in the name of serving an imaginary and self-imposed benchmark.

Sometimes, it's best for suburban bus routes to terminate that the first rapid transit station available. Sometimes, it's best for these routes to terminate at a hub located further down the line. There is not a one-size-fits-all solution like the statement you've made.
Click to expand...

In the case of the 132 and 137, truncating them at Oak Grove would mean there are no local stops on their route portions between Oak Grove and Malden Center, since there are no other bus routes to take it's place (The 131 is a commuter bus).

Hence I said "generally", there are specific instances for each route, but a good majority fit the former rule of the first station available.

In the case of the 34E, is it duplicated by 10 additional bus routes, hence, the 34E should be shortened.
 
Last edited:
Teban54 said:
I wonder why you chose to cut the 34 and not the 34E. The latter, being the much longer route, would benefit from having a shorter trip for greater reliability.
Click to expand...

I used to ride the 34E from Norwood in to commute and the reliability of it is compromised in the stretch from W Rox./Ennekin Pkwy to Ros Sq. I say if OLX is going to Needham then have the 34E turn down W Rox. Pkwy via Liszt Street and go loop at Bellevue.
 
The current state of the MBTA (metaphorically and literally) in one picture:
1672784219133.png
 
I find it somewhat concerning that the MBTA internal rail replacement shuttle bus planning team forgot that Congress St. under the Haymarket Garage is closed to traffic.

Since it's not linked on the MBTA site, since the T deletes shuttle routes and their respective URLs expire a day to a week after they complete, the way to access the page is here: https://www.mbta.com/schedules/Shuttle-GovernmentCenterNorthStation

Note, the widget on the right is used to access the stop locations, since shuttle bus route stops are left blank on the T's site.

1672891148047.png
 
Riverside said:
^ Now, that all being said... running short trains feels like the kind of break from "business as usual" or "how we've always done it" that frankly I don't have confidence in the T to execute anymore -- both in that the T is generally shockingly provincial, but also that it's not clear to me that the T has the expertise to be flexible in that kind of way. (I assume running shorter trains would have impact on, I don't know, braking distance or something operational like that, and I would not be super confident that at this point that there is a robust enough understanding at the T to be comfortable with that.)
Click to expand...
Not sure if I'm showing my age here but back in the early 1990s, I remember distinctly that on Sundays, the Orange line ran with 4 car sets while the rest of the week, they ran on 6 car sets. Hence it's been done before but possible no one currently on the MBTA was there when it happened.

Furthermore, the LA Metro runs 4 car sets on off-peak hours on the Red Line and 6 car sets during peak hours so there's precedence for a transit agency to do this.
 
I was looking at the GTFS data to see how the Ashmont shuttles are being planned to run for the weekend.

The T schedules 47 minutes for the shuttle to complete a one way run during the afternoon. Scheduled subway trips are 16 minutes under normal full speed operations on the Red Line.

While winter 2023 scheduled Red Line service on the Ashmont Branch is every 16 minutes Saturdays and 18 minutes Sunday, the T is planning to run 3 minute headways for shuttle buses during much of the day. Scheduled running time is shorter and headways are longer in the early morning and late night, just under 30 minutes of runtime at 10 minute headways at the start and end of service.

The usual way to obtain the Shuttle Bus routes for the T is to fetch the MBTA GTFS data, open the list of routes and find the shuttle buses, then extract the desired shuttle bus route's header and input it into the URL. This populates the shuttle bus data for a particular shuttle route into a readable format right away.

1672892398520.png
 
Typical OL commuter but for unimportant reasons ended up taking the GL for first time in a long time N Station-Boylston this morning. Total on train time was near 15 minutes due to having to stop at every signal before proceeding, including one for about 2 mins in the tunnel that the driver ended up passing at red. No trains ahed of us (8 min wait at N Station). Is this typical or just unlucky; hoping for the latter because if not, yikes.
 
Highwayguy said:
Typical OL commuter but for unimportant reasons ended up taking the GL for first time in a long time N Station-Boylston this morning. Total on train time was near 15 minutes due to having to stop at every signal before proceeding, including one for about 2 mins in the tunnel that the driver ended up passing at red. No trains ahed of us (8 min wait at N Station). Is this typical or just unlucky; hoping for the latter because if not, yikes.
Click to expand...

According to the transit matters dashboard this was not typical, but rather just unlucky. Here is a graph of the the query for that trip today:

Archboston_Image_Comment.png


I assume you were on the trip that left North Station at 8:01 and took 13 minutes to get to Boylston. The median travel time for that trip so far today is 7 minutes, with an interquartile range of 7-8 minutes. You were just unlucky.
 
I went through and tried to plot an MBTA frequencies map, as it currently is on Sundays. It's quite cumbersome, and I believe there is a much easier and faster way to do this than I made this map.

While most public transit frequency maps point to rush hour service or Monday - Friday service, it doesn't really tell the full story on how much frequency there is evenings, weekends, or Sundays. A route could run every 5 minutes rush hour, and every 20 minutes during the day, but have NO service on Sundays, such as the 7 bus (service is every 45 mins midday). The MBTA doesn't publish a frequency map of their services at all, as it as currently.

A frequency map showing Sunday service, shows where service runs 7 days a week, and which service is frequent, even on Sundays, all days. Using a Sunday frequency map, one can hop on a transit at 10:30 p.m. Sunday evening, and know transit is running at least that frequent until 12:00 a.m. midnight Sunday evening, 7 days a week, 7am - midnight, frequent service. Rail and subway routes are marked by frequency alongside buses, regardless of the mode of transit. The single purpose of this map is to show frequency, and nothing else. Transit mode doesn't matter as much as the frequency. The map should show the minimum frequency (i.e. the worst possible), in other words, all day Sunday service frequency.

Some routes run 10 a.m. - 5:00 p.m. Sundays, and some run from 5:45 a.m. until 1:15 a.m. As such, I simply counted the number of trips, rounded up, needed to run a full 20hr+ service day (5:45a - 1:15a) on Sundays to determine average Sunday service frequency. Service that runs for a shorter span of service is penalized as less frequent service on Sundays on the map, even if service is more frequent than listed below, during it's shorter operating span of service. Routes that do not operate Sundays are not displayed at all and removed from the map entirely (example: 92 bus in Charlestown).

The number of trips operated in both directions on Sundays is as follows:

1 - 10 trips -> Every 2 hours or less frequent. (thin yellow line)
11 - 20 trips -> Every 1 - 2 hours. (thin pink line)
21 - 40 trips -> Every 30 - 60 minutes (thin green line)
41 - 60 trips -> Every 20 - 30 minutes (medium yellow line)
61 - 80 trips -> Every 15 - 20 minutes (medium brown line)
81 - 100 trips -> Every 12 - 15 minutes (medium blue line)
101 - 120 trips -> Every 10 - 12 minutes (thick dark blue line)
121+ trips or more -> Every 10 minutes or better (thick black line)

I can't make a smooth color code since Google Maps only allows a few select colors. So I opted to use black, blue, and darker colors up until it hits hourly, then use red and orange for less frequent service. It'll be interesting to compare this map to BNRD bus network redesign, which is supposed to begin a phased rollout in summer 2023, 5-7 months from now.

There must be an easier way to plot updated MBTA Sunday frequency service maps, every time Bus and Subway schedule changes every 3 months (next change is March 11, 2023). If anyone is willing to update this again in mid-March (last bus schedule change before BNRD, pending/tentitively), please do so/set a reminder. Map URL, (duplicate/copy & fix/update the map come mid-March https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1iC1bt0iRJH0lH4ScbqT5lTA9IyKYcqQ )

East Boston ferry isn't currently operating, nor does the Hingham/Hull ferry run on Sundays. As such, all ferry service is omitted from the map.

The full Sunday service frequency map, Commuter Rail is only shown where buses run, for visibility of Boston area routes, not much changes with CR frequency outside of the buses. EDIT: Trying out orange.
1677094918832.png


Service every hour or better all day Sunday from early morning until late night:
1677095309540.png

A closer look at hourly Sunday service or better in the inner core of Boston. More detail in the downtown area and surrounding areas. Fascinating.
1677095377862.png


Service every 30 minutes or better all day Sundays. The Green Line Extension added a huge swath of Somerville with every 30 minute service or better.
1673815257692.png


Every 20 minutes, 15 minutes, and 10 minutes, Sunday service.
1673306417669.png
1673306476474.png
1673306542470.png

Red Line runnning 18 minute headways on individual branches doesn't do it for every 15 minute Sunday service. It will need at least 81 trips on individual branches to meet the 15 minute threshold using my map due to my crude calculation formula, even if actual headways are lower than 15 minutes all day using only 74 trips for the day Sunday. Note the 15 minute frequency map for Sundays, much of Somerville is now served with the new GLX.

One other unique example is the 134, where headways are longer than 1 hour midday, but headways of 40 minutes in the mornings and evenings to Medford Sq., causing the Medford Sq. portion to appear as "every 60 minutes or better", since more than 21 trips are operated to and from Medford Sq., combined.

I tried to aggregate shared corridors with somewhat coordinated headways for the 71/73, 87/88, 94/96, 104/109, 106/108, 116/117, 220/222, 441/442, 712/713, Red, Green, and Newburyport/Rockport Lines. Some use existing short turn runs to calculate the shared corridor, other shared corridors had to be manually compiled. The 111 is marked as an express bus route.
 
Last edited:
Is there any app where you can simply state your location and it shows all the soon to arrive transit vehicles? It’s talkative frustrating for areas that have multiple bus lines, so as far as I can you have to choose an actual line rather than just see which bus from which route is about to arrive.
 
FK4 said:
Is there any app where you can simply state your location and it shows all the soon to arrive transit vehicles? It’s talkative frustrating for areas that have multiple bus lines, so as far as I can you have to choose an actual line rather than just see which bus from which route is about to arrive.
Click to expand...
Transit app does this for Boston and many other cities and so is very helpful in my experience

Transit • Make life better without a car.

Get real-time info for bus, train, Uber, Lyft, bikeshare & scooters in 300+ cities. Works for all agencies: the MTA, TTC, STM, CTA, Metro, many more.
transitapp.com transitapp.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top