MBTA Red Line / Blue Line Connector

[JeffDowntown]

I can think of 2 Billion reasons.
Logan is the only place with any jobs.
RR every 10 minutes would provide more than enough

So the 150,000 people who live in Lynn and Salem don't need to get to jobs? Many of which are in Boston and Cambridge? Logan is the only reason for a North Shore transit line? Why do people need to get to Quincy? Why do people need to get to Newton?

 

[Tallguy]

So the 150,000 people who live in Lynn and Salem don't need to get to jobs? Many of which are in Boston and Cambridge? Logan is the only reason for a North Shore transit line? Why do people need to get to Quincy? Why do people need to get to Newton?

I'm sorry, perhaps you don't understand where the Eastern Route goes? Perhaps I don't know how to read my map, but I believe that it goes from Salem to Boston, through Lynn, and just east of Cambridge.
So, why do Lynn folk take the 4xx buses to Wonderland? To sunbathe on Revere Beach? To grab a roast beef sandwich at Kelly's? No, they are going to work, either at Logan or in Downtown Boston. So, in a sense, yes, Logan is the only reason to extend the BL, assuming RR on the ER.
And, I've asked myself many times why anyone needs to get to Quincy

 

[HenryAlan]

I can think of 2 Billion reasons.
Logan is the only place with any jobs.
RR every 10 minutes would provide more than enough

Although I posed the question, Logan is really the reason the answer should be yes. There is no regional rail scenario that services Logan without it either being a stub end line that doesn't serve downtown or connect to the rest of the system; or by building an extremely expensive harbor tunnel, which would be quite a bit more costly than any BLX scenario.

 

[JeffDowntown]

I can only buy in to regional rail as being part of the North Shore solution. It only gets you to North Station with a much longer (time) transfer than subway-to-subway transfers.

But the bigger problem is economic equity. A commuter can get from Braintree or Riverside to anywhere in the rail network for $2.40. Right now that same ride for a commuter from Salem is $10.40 ($8.00 to North Station then $2.40). If we expect commuters to use regional rail as a substitute for the subway we won't build for them, then the fare needs be on parity with the inside 128 transit fare -- with free transfers into the subway system.

 

[CheapLeak]

I think inside 128 should all be $2.40 with inside 495 should be no more than $7.50. Unfortunately that would not be very profitable.

 

[HenryAlan]

I think inside 128 should all be $2.40 with inside 495 should be no more than $7.50. Unfortunately that would not be very profitable.

Profitability shouldn't be the goal. What kind of profit does I-95 generate?

 

[Teban54]

In addition to all of the above, I think there's an implicit impact of extending the rapid transit boundary.

Most rapid transit lines today fall way short of 128, with only Braintree and Riverside as exceptions. Making Blue Line go to Lynn (and maybe even Salem) will make more people realize that rapid transit can - and should - reach much closer to 128 than they do today. In the long term, this will pave the way for more extensions like OLX to West Roxbury, OLX to Reading, RLX to Arlington and possibly Lexington, etc.

Even though :15 Regional Rail may be able to provide "entry-level" rapid-transit-like service, I doubt they will be as widely recognized - by residents and tourists alike - as true rapid transit lines are, perhaps even if you put them on the rapid transit map (much less in a region where Silver "Line" is on the map). That's why you often see people pushing for full-on rapid transit conversion for Fairmount. And while Lynn itself can be served by both BLX and Regional Rail, all three extensions I mentioned above can't.

 

[737900er]

I can only buy in to regional rail as being part of the North Shore solution. It only gets you to North Station with a much longer (time) transfer than subway-to-subway transfers.

But the bigger problem is economic equity. A commuter can get from Braintree or Riverside to anywhere in the rail network for $2.40. Right now that same ride for a commuter from Salem is $10.40 ($8.00 to North Station then $2.40). If we expect commuters to use regional rail as a substitute for the subway we won't build for them, then the fare needs be on parity with the inside 128 transit fare -- with free transfers into the subway system.

This is especially true if we intend to use Regional Rail as the primary rail service to bus hubs like Lynn or Newton Corner.

I don't think it's wrong to charge a higher fare for the Regional Rail when a rapid transit option exists, like is done today at Quincy Center and Braintree (although the differential today is too high).

 

[Tallguy]

I can only buy in to regional rail as being part of the North Shore solution. It only gets you to North Station with a much longer (time) transfer than subway-to-subway transfers.

But the bigger problem is economic equity. A commuter can get from Braintree or Riverside to anywhere in the rail network for $2.40. Right now that same ride for a commuter from Salem is $10.40 ($8.00 to North Station then $2.40). If we expect commuters to use regional rail as a substitute for the subway we won't build for them, then the fare needs be on parity with the inside 128 transit fare -- with free transfers into the subway system.

So, spend $2B on BLX instead of changing fares?

 

[Tallguy]

In addition to all of the above, I think there's an implicit impact of extending the rapid transit boundary.

Most rapid transit lines today fall way short of 128, with only Braintree and Riverside as exceptions. Making Blue Line go to Lynn (and maybe even Salem) will make more people realize that rapid transit can - and should - reach much closer to 128 than they do today. In the long term, this will pave the way for more extensions like OLX to West Roxbury, OLX to Reading, RLX to Arlington and possibly Lexington, etc.

Even though :15 Regional Rail may be able to provide "entry-level" rapid-transit-like service, I doubt they will be as widely recognized - by residents and tourists alike - as true rapid transit lines are, perhaps even if you put them on the rapid transit map (much less in a region where Silver "Line" is on the map). That's why you often see people pushing for full-on rapid transit conversion for Fairmount. And while Lynn itself can be served by both BLX and Regional Rail, all three extensions I mentioned above can't.

All three of those extensions are more useful and could ALL be done for less than BLX.

 

[Tallguy]

Although I posed the question, Logan is really the reason the answer should be yes. There is no regional rail scenario that services Logan without it either being a stub end line that doesn't serve downtown or connect to the rest of the system; or by building an extremely expensive harbor tunnel, which would be quite a bit more costly than any BLX scenario.

Getting across the Saugus will be nearly as expensive as a cross harbor tunnel

 

[Teban54]

All three of those extensions are more useful and could ALL be done for less than BLX.

Umm what?

According to the 2003 Program for Mass Transportation (PMT):

	Capital cost (2003 estimate)	Ridership increase on mode
BLX Wonderland to Lynn	$357.6 mil	21,000
BLX Lynn to Salem	$363.8 mil	15,500
OLX to Reading	$487.8 mil	9,400
OLX to West Roxbury	$316.2 mil	11,300
GLX to Needham	$123.9 mil	3,400
RLX to Route 128 via Arlington	$749.3 mil	6,700

Among these projects alone, BLX is the clear winner in both ridership and cost-effectiveness. Even Lynn to Salem is competitive with the rest. (There are other projects that net higher ridership than BLX.)

 

[bigeman312]

I don’t like using 128 as the cutoff. Gloucester Station is inside 128, for example.

I do agree with the sentiment for increased parity among stations within 10 track miles of the hub/terminus, though.

That means Quincy Center, Hyde Park, Readville, Roslindale Village, Bellevue, Highland, West Roxbury, Newtonville, West Newton, Belmont Center, Waverley, Waltham, Wedgemere, Winchester Center, Wyoming Hill, Melrose - Cedar Park, Greenwood, and Wakefield should all be in the lowest fare zone, which let’s call Zone A. I could see that being the exact same as a rapid transit fare ($2.40) or a bit higher ($3.60, for example). Currently some of those are as high as Zone 2 with a ridiculous $7.00 fare currently, which is absurd.

Zone B should be the 10-20 mile ring, which I could see being $4.80. Salem, Beverly Depot, Route 128 Station, etc.

Zone C should be the 20-30 mile ring, at $6.00. Mansfield, Lowell, Framingham, etc.

Zone D at 30-40 miles and $7.20. Attleboro, Middleborough/Lakeville, Westborough, etc.

Zone E at 40+ miles and $8.40. Worcester, Providence, Fitchburg, etc.

 

[TheRatmeister]

I don’t like using 128 as the cutoff. Gloucester Station is inside 128, for example.

I do agree with the sentiment for increased parity among stations within 10 track miles of the hub/terminus, though.

That means Quincy Center, Hyde Park, Readville, Roslindale Village, Bellevue, Highland, West Roxbury, Newtonville, West Newton, Belmont Center, Waverley, Waltham, Wedgemere, Winchester Center, Wyoming Hill, Melrose - Cedar Park, Greenwood, and Wakefield should all be in the lowest fare zone, which let’s call Zone A. I could see that being the exact same as a rapid transit fare ($2.40) or a bit higher ($3.60, for example). Currently some of those are as high as Zone 2 with a ridiculous $7.00 fare currently, which is absurd.

Zone B should be the 10-20 mile ring, which I could see being $4.80. Salem, Beverly Depot, Route 128 Station, etc.

Zone C should be the 20-30 mile ring, at $6.00. Mansfield, Lowell, Framingham, etc.

Zone D at 30-40 miles and $7.20. Attleboro, Middleborough/Lakeville, Westborough, etc.

Zone E at 40+ miles and $8.40. Worcester, Providence, Fitchburg, etc.

I think the "128 cutoff" really only applies south of the interchange with US1, I don't think anyone is suggesting the BL should go to Gloucester. That being said, I do agree that it's often too far. The RL should not be extended to Lexington, nor should the GL be extended to Woburn. Unfortunately it's one of those things where I don't think there is a hard and fast rule, it's really circumstantial.

I also agree about zoned fares, especially with an expanded system. Should the fares of a JP resident taking the OL to go shopping in Back Bay in the afternoon really be the same as suburban resident from Reading or Braintree commuting in/out during rush hour? Other options for zoned fares could be cheaper fares outside of downtown. Perhaps a ride from Needham Heights to Newton Centre could be $1.50 or $2 to encourage development outside the city center. The only thing I would change is your absolute numbers, but I'm guessing you just kinda pulled those out of nowhere which is fine for a hypothetical. I think $10 to Providence for example might be a better price.

 

[JeffDowntown]

I don’t like using 128 as the cutoff. Gloucester Station is inside 128, for example.

I do agree with the sentiment for increased parity among stations within 10 track miles of the hub/terminus, though.

That means Quincy Center, Hyde Park, Readville, Roslindale Village, Bellevue, Highland, West Roxbury, Newtonville, West Newton, Belmont Center, Waverley, Waltham, Wedgemere, Winchester Center, Wyoming Hill, Melrose - Cedar Park, Greenwood, and Wakefield should all be in the lowest fare zone, which let’s call Zone A. I could see that being the exact same as a rapid transit fare ($2.40) or a bit higher ($3.60, for example). Currently some of those are as high as Zone 2 with a ridiculous $7.00 fare currently, which is absurd.

Zone B should be the 10-20 mile ring, which I could see being $4.80. Salem, Beverly Depot, Route 128 Station, etc.

Zone C should be the 20-30 mile ring, at $6.00. Mansfield, Lowell, Framingham, etc.

Zone D at 30-40 miles and $7.20. Attleboro, Middleborough/Lakeville, Westborough, etc.

Zone E at 40+ miles and $8.40. Worcester, Providence, Fitchburg, etc.

My point wasn't really about 128 per say (yes it extends further away from Boston than a reasonable cutoff).

It was about fare equity when you are providing regional rail to a location in lieu of rapid transit, even though the rapid transit is more than justified by total population and population density (more justified than than it is to other areas already served).

In the inside 15 miles ring from Boston Proper zone, Lynn and Arlington stand out as communities that deserve rapid transit rail service (population densities 9.5 and 9 per sq. mile respectively), more so that Quincy or Newton (population densities 6.5 and 4.5 per sq. mile).

 

[Stlin]

I don’t like using 128 as the cutoff. Gloucester Station is inside 128, for example.

I do agree with the sentiment for increased parity among stations within 10 track miles of the hub/terminus, though.

That means Quincy Center, Hyde Park, Readville, Roslindale Village, Bellevue, Highland, West Roxbury, Newtonville, West Newton, Belmont Center, Waverley, Waltham, Wedgemere, Winchester Center, Wyoming Hill, Melrose - Cedar Park, Greenwood, and Wakefield should all be in the lowest fare zone, which let’s call Zone A. I could see that being the exact same as a rapid transit fare ($2.40) or a bit higher ($3.60, for example). Currently some of those are as high as Zone 2 with a ridiculous $7.00 fare currently, which is absurd.

Zone B should be the 10-20 mile ring, which I could see being $4.80. Salem, Beverly Depot, Route 128 Station, etc.

Zone C should be the 20-30 mile ring, at $6.00. Mansfield, Lowell, Framingham, etc.

Zone D at 30-40 miles and $7.20. Attleboro, Middleborough/Lakeville, Westborough, etc.

Zone E at 40+ miles and $8.40. Worcester, Providence, Fitchburg, etc.

It's vastly off thread topic, but I don't think you can do that in reality and survive a title VI equity analysis. The commuter rail tends to have very low minority and low income ridership, meaning any change to zones 1-10 will likely result in a disproportionate benefit finding.

Additionally, the T did publish a study on this topic back in early March 2020 that was swiftly overshadowed, but overall has decent work which does recommend smoothing the Jump from zones 1A to 1. https://archives.lib.state.ma.us/bi...61901/on1343926914.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

That said, with extensions to the system as proposed I think we'd need to look at a distance based fare for not just the CR but also the rapid transit system similar to WMATA (DC Metro). That would allow you both to decrease fares for someone going a stop or two for groceries, but a difference in fare for someone doing the long trip from the outer burbs makes sense.

 

[TheRatmeister]

Here's some inflation adjusted numbers for those curious

According to the 2003 Program for Mass Transportation (PMT):

	Capital cost (2003 estimate, adjusted for inflation in 2023 $)	Ridership increase on mode
BLX Wonderland to Lynn	$598.0 mil	21,000
BLX Lynn to Salem	$608.3 mil	15,500
OLX to Reading	$487.8 mil	9,400
OLX to West Roxbury	$528.7 mil	11,300
GLX to Needham	$207.2 mil	3,400
RLX to Route 128 via Arlington	$1252.9 mil	6,700

I think it is worth asking for each of these cases what ridership would be like with a different mode, such as regional rail. I'd suspect OL to Reading would perform very similarly to regional-rail, for example.

 

[Tallguy]

Umm what?

According to the 2003 Program for Mass Transportation (PMT):

	Capital cost (2003 estimate)	Ridership increase on mode
BLX Wonderland to Lynn	$357.6 mil	21,000
BLX Lynn to Salem	$363.8 mil	15,500
OLX to Reading	$487.8 mil	9,400
OLX to West Roxbury	$316.2 mil	11,300
GLX to Needham	$123.9 mil	3,400
RLX to Route 128 via Arlington	$749.3 mil	6,700

Among these projects alone, BLX is the clear winner in both ridership and cost-effectiveness. Even Lynn to Salem is competitive with the rest. (There are other projects that net higher ridership than BLX.)

You are really quoting 30+ yr old figures? Really?

 

[Tallguy]

You are really quoting 30+ yr old figures? Really?

And those ridership figures do NOT presuppose RR

 

[TheRatmeister]

It's vastly off thread topic, but I don't think you can do that in reality and survive a title VI equity analysis. The commuter rail tends to have very low minority and low income ridership, meaning any change to zones 1-10 will likely result in a disproportionate benefit finding.

Additionally, the T did publish a study on this topic back in early March 2020 that was swiftly overshadowed, but overall has decent work which does recommend smoothing the Jump from zones 1A to 1.
https://archives.lib.state.ma.us/bi...61901/on1343926914.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

I'm not a lawyer nor an expert in Title VI, but perhaps a solution is to do a package consisting of:

• Complete fare system overhaul, including peak/off peak fares, fare zones on rapid transit, cheaper fares that don't pass through downtown or for journeys starting/ending in certain lower income areas, etc.
• A new fare curve for regional rail, with the steepest cuts coming to the furthest in zones, mainly to zones 1 and 2. Zone 2 fares are currently $7 and I think a fair price would be closer to $3.50. I would suggest Salem/Swampscott be moved to Zone 2 as well. The furthest out zones should definitely receive cuts, but they should be smaller. Perhaps Newburyport/Rockport should be cut from 12.25 to an even $10, for example.
• Rapid transit expansions focused on lower-income areas. IE: OL to West Roxbury, BL to Lynn, and rapid-transit-ification of the Fairmount Line.