New Red and Orange Line Cars

[Delvin4519]

Springfield basically has to prioritize the Orange fleet to 152 cars when that's the vast majority of the cars on their property. 8/10ths of the Red order is still in China or not yet started.

If that's the case then it's quite bad news for the Red Line.

It is pretty good news though that what was once an 44 car shortage for the Orange Line a year ago is now down to only an 18 car shortage on the OL. This means it's possible for the OL car shortage to be resolved within the next 12 months.

There are 28 Red Line cars in Springfield and 16 at the MBTA for a total of 44 Red Line cars on Massachusetts soil. If all were to be completed this year, then 44 Red Line cars would be enough to substitute/replace 20% of the old 220 car fleet pre-CRRC (iirc). It'd also allow 6-7 new CRRC sets to run on the RL over the current 1 or 2 CRRC sets.

 

[Teban54]

It is pretty good news though that what was once an 44 car shortage for the Orange Line a year ago is now down to only an 18 car shortage on the OL. This means it's possible for the OL car shortage to be resolved within the next 12 months.

Has the dispatcher shortage been resolved, though? Some unverified claims on Reddit say they're still short on dispatchers for the Red Line. If that problem still exists for the Orange Line, the 32 extra cars may not even be able to be in service, and that may even apply to cars replacing the original fleet.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Has the dispatcher shortage been resolved, though? Some unverified claims on Reddit say they're still short on dispatchers for the Red Line. If that problem still exists for the Orange Line, the 32 extra cars may not even be able to be in service, and that may even apply to cars replacing the original fleet.

The 32 extra cars are contingent on the upgraded signal system being put in-place to allow the brawnier acceleration and braking of the new cars to shorten headways down to the 4-minute peak target. That work has been postponed because of all the problems even getting the cars here. While the signal mods are not as critical on sparser-service Orange as they are on Red, they're still not going to be able to make use of all 152 cars/25 sets until that signal work is done.

Dispatcher shortage is definitely the shorter-term problem, though, since we're getting close to replacement-level.

 

[Jahvon09]

The 32 extra cars are contingent on the upgraded signal system being put in-place to allow the brawnier acceleration and braking of the new cars to shorten headways down to the 4-minute peak target. That work has been postponed because of all the problems even getting the cars here. While the signal mods are not as critical on sparser-service Orange as they are on Red, they're still not going to be able to make use of all 152 cars/25 sets until that signal work is done.

Dispatcher shortage is definitely the shorter-term problem, though, since we're getting close to replacement-level.

What the hell is taking them so damn long to finish this work?!!! See?!! And this work was supposed to be done during the OL shutdown almost 2 years ago!! They are so slow!!!!

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

What the hell is taking them so damn long to finish this work?!!! See?!! And this work was supposed to be done during the OL shutdown almost 2 years ago!! They are so slow!!!!

No, it wasn't supposed to be done during the shutdown. The shutdown was to fix track and switches, not signals. The signals are at full state-of-repair.

It wouldn't have made a difference if they finished the signal enhancement work by now anyway, since they don't even have the car counts and dispatcher/operator counts to run regular service levels let alone enhanced service levels. The track gangs right now are better deployed fixing slow zones so the service levels recover to pre-crisis par rather than doing signal mods they're not going to get to take advantage of for 2 years.

 

[Jahvon09]

No, it wasn't supposed to be done during the shutdown. The shutdown was to fix track and switches, not signals. The signals are at full state-of-repair.

It wouldn't have made a difference if they finished the signal enhancement work by now anyway, since they don't even have the car counts and dispatcher/operator counts to run regular service levels let alone enhanced service levels. The track gangs right now are better deployed fixing slow zones so the service levels recover to pre-crisis par rather than doing signal mods they're not going to get to take advantage of for 2 years.

Four children I babysat with for a week. They wanted to go train riding, so I took them with me. We rode on the Red Line & it was so damn slow!! I thought they fixed it, but no! The train crawled along in some spots!!!

 

[Jahvon09]

No, it wasn't supposed to be done during the shutdown. The shutdown was to fix track and switches, not signals. The signals are at full state-of-repair.

It wouldn't have made a difference if they finished the signal enhancement work by now anyway, since they don't even have the car counts and dispatcher/operator counts to run regular service levels let alone enhanced service levels. The track gangs right now are better deployed fixing slow zones so the service levels recover to pre-crisis par rather than doing signal mods they're not going to get to take advantage of for 2 years.

That was mainly what I was talking about. The trackwork. It seems to be taking forever & a day to get this work done everywhere!!

 

[alewife]

The roster page got updated yesterday with some new information.

On the Orange Line, 2 more cars (1502/1503) were accepted for service and 4 more cars (1506/1507 and 1508/1509) were delivered last month, bringing the total number of cars in service to 104 and the number of cars on the property to 110 (including derailment-damaged 1400/1401). Once the 4 newly-delivered cars are accepted, they should be able to run 15 trains at peak, which is only one short of the pre-2022 level of 16 (though many years before that it was 17 before the reliability of the Hawkers started to tank).

On the Red Line, 1914/1915 were delivered in January and there don't appear to have been any deliveries in February. They need one more pair before they have 3 complete sets. However, the T has awarded a contract to begin scrapping the 18 legacy fleet cars stored out of service.

Overall, it's good to see deliveries moving, though it's still far slower than it should be—the contract calls for a delivery rate of 8 cars per month (4 OL + 4 RL), and we're nowhere near that.

 

[Delvin4519]

The roster page got updated yesterday with some new updates.

On the Orange Line, 2 more cars (1502/1503) were accepted for service and 4 more cars (1506/1507 and 1508/1509) were delivered last month, bringing the total number of cars in service to 104 and the number of cars on the property to 110 (including derailment-damaged 1400/1401). Once the 4 newly-delivered cars are accepted, they should be able to run 15 trains at peak, which is only one short of the pre-2022 level of 16 (though many years before that it was 17 before the reliability of the Hawkers started to tank).

On the Red Line, 1914/1915 were delivered in January and there don't appear to have been any deliveries in February. They need one more pair before they have 3 complete sets. However, the T has awarded a contract to begin scrapping the 18 legacy fleet cars stored out of service.

Overall, it's good to see deliveries moving, though it's still far slower than it should be—the contract calls for a delivery rate of 8 cars per month (4 OL + 4 RL), and we're nowhere near that.

The pre-COVID fleet was 120 cars, so this means that, in order to get to 122 new Orange Line cars (2 because the derailment pair), the Orange Line car shortage is now down to 16 more cars needed for full pre-COVID service, and 12 more cars needed for delivery to return to pre-COVID service.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

The pre-COVID fleet was 120 cars, so this means that, in order to get to 122 new Orange Line cars (2 because the derailment pair), the Orange Line car shortage is now down to 16 more cars needed for full pre-COVID service, and 12 more cars needed for delivery to return to pre-COVID service.

They didn't use the full roster pre-COVID. In the 2014 Blue Book the peak-period trainset usage was 16 (96 cars), not 20, due to regular maintenance cycles and spare/run-as-directed holds. And that would probably be the same today, because at any point a number of CRRC cars are going to be in the shop for warranty mods.

 

[mjbellantoni]

I don't think I've seen this posted here yet.

MBTA to pay Chinese company another $148 million to get new Red and Orange Line cars by end of 2027 - The Boston Globe

The total cost of the contract for the new Red and Orange Line cars is now more than $1 billion.

www.bostonglobe.com

 

[Delvin4519]

I don't think I've seen this posted here yet.

MBTA to pay Chinese company another $148 million to get new Red and Orange Line cars by end of 2027 - The Boston Globe

The total cost of the contract for the new Red and Orange Line cars is now more than $1 billion.

www.bostonglobe.com

Update shows 112 Orange Line cars and 18 Red Line cars delivered.

The delivered Orange Line fleet is now down to only a 10 car shortage below the pre-COVID fleet (again, +2 for derailment pair).

 

[nbcoram]

I don't think I've seen this posted here yet.

MBTA to pay Chinese company another $148 million to get new Red and Orange Line cars by end of 2027 - The Boston Globe

The total cost of the contract for the new Red and Orange Line cars is now more than $1 billion.

www.bostonglobe.com

This info just came out of this morning's subcommittee and full board meetings.

I understand why they are doing it, but relieving late penalties, rewarding them for meeting the updated schedule, etc. etc. and paying them up to $148 million MORE so that way the end of the contract is 13 years following the initial reward, instead of 15 years, is a completely insane look.

 

[nbcoram]

Jeff Gonneville just told the full board another OL pair will be delivered tonight, bringing it up to 114.

Update shows 112 Orange Line cars and 18 Red Line cars delivered.

The delivered Orange Line fleet is now down to only a 10 car shortage below the pre-COVID fleet (again, +2 for derailment pair).

 

[Delvin4519]

Jeff Gonneville just told the full board another OL pair will be delivered tonight, bringing it up to 114.

Down to just an 8 car shortage on the delivery end for OL, meaning OL is very close to restoring the pre-COVID fleet. Such a last minute change means I didn't/wouldn't see it in the prepared slides.

 

[bigeman312]

Down to just an 8 car shortage on the delivery end for OL, meaning OL is very close to restoring the pre-COVID fleet. Such a last minute change means I didn't/wouldn't see it in the prepared slides.

I may be out of the loop here. There were 120 Hawker-Siddeley 01200s, right? Isn't this a six car shortage? Or is it considered an eight car shortage because of the 1400/1401 derailment pair?

Either way, we'll be two cars shy of 19 Orange Line trains, which feels like a big milestone.

How many trains are needed to be in service for x-minute headways with good reliability and the current slow zones? My very, VERY rudimentary back of napkin math shows:

Orange Line Headways	Minimum Required Trains in Service and Running at Peak
9	13
8.5	14
8	15
7.5	16
7	17
6.5	18
6	20

Maybe somebody with more knowledge can correct this.

 

[Delvin4519]

I may be out of the loop here. There were 120 Hawker-Siddeley 01200s, right? Isn't this a six car shortage? Or is it considered an eight car shortage because of the 1400/1401 derailment pair?

Either way, we'll be two cars shy of 19 Orange Line trains, which feels like a big milestone.

How many trains are needed to be in service for x-minute headways with good reliability and the current slow zones? My very, VERY rudimentary back of napkin math shows:

Orange Line Headways	Minimum Required Trains in Service and Running at Peak
9	13
8.5	14
8	15
7.5	16
7	17
6.5	18
6	20

Maybe somebody with more knowledge can correct this.

This is due to the derailment pair. Because of the derailment pair, 122 delivered Orange Line cars is the total to offset the out of service derailment pair. This way, 120 new Orange Line cars would be available in service to match the pre-COVID fleet.

I also have an identical copy of the trains in service to headways chart, under pre-slow zone schedules.

 

[HenryAlan]

This info just came out of this morning's subcommittee and full board meetings.

I understand why they are doing it, but relieving late penalties, rewarding them for meeting the updated schedule, etc. etc. and paying them up to $148 million MORE so that way the end of the contract is 13 years following the initial reward, instead of 15 years, is a completely insane look.

Definitely a PR challenge, but when you dig in to the details, this was probably the best available outcome. Putting it back out to bid would mean at least a 5 year delay, so the smarter choice is re-negotiating the original terms. Although it was not a cost+ contract, CRCC makes a valid point about tariffs and acts of god rendering the original agreement impossible to fulfill.

 

[nbcoram]

Definitely a PR challenge, but when you dig in to the details, this was probably the best available outcome. Putting it back out to bid would mean at least a 5 year delay, so the smarter choice is re-negotiating the original terms. Although it was not a cost+ contract, CRCC makes a valid point about tariffs and acts of god rendering the original agreement impossible to fulfill.

Definitely accurate that not all of this is within CRRC's control.

However, I still think we are being too soft on them with regard to some of the other problems that have gone on specifically as it relates to the Springfield factory and delays that have happened over there. Just my opinion.

 

[Lrfox]

Definitely a PR challenge, but when you dig in to the details, this was probably the best available outcome. Putting it back out to bid would mean at least a 5 year delay, so the smarter choice is re-negotiating the original terms. Although it was not a cost+ contract, CRCC makes a valid point about tariffs and acts of god rendering the original agreement impossible to fulfill.

Well said. It's easy fodder for the media: "The MBTA is throwing another $150 Million at a CHINESE company to complete an already delayed existing contract!" And the media would be right. But the reality is that we badly need these cars, a lot has change since the initial contract was signed, and there probably isn't another way to obtain those cars without spending more and/or waiting much longer. I actually appreciate that the MBTA chose to face the reality head on rather than allow CRCC to fail or put the remainder of the order out to bid again. From a strictly political standpoint, it would have been easier to do take the latter approach and publicly drag CRCC through the mud for "failing to deliver."