Orange Line Extension to Roslindale/West Roxbury

737900er said:
34E is sort of a 225C→ 226 situation as the current route is much too long to begin with.
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It's long but also, where are 34E riders going? I'd bet a good deal are going to LMA in which case no, truncating at Roslindale Sq is not a good idea.
 
737900er said:
As we've discussed on here before, one of the big benefits of this project is cutting back a lot of bus routes on the Washington Street section and reallocating those bus hours to increased frequency.
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The routes we truncate or delete outright depends on if the OLX is only going +1 to Roslindale or full West Rox/Milennium Park extension.

If it's just OLX +1 to Roslindale then:
* Cut the 51 bus back to Rozzie, no doubt, frequency is too low and needs the shorter runtime for more frequency.
* Cut the 30 bus back to Rozzie, BUT, also delete the 31 bus outright, since the 31 unnecessarily duplicates the 28 and the 21 buses and the 31 bus prevents the 21 and the 30 buses from being frequent bus routes. If the OL goes to Rozzie Square, then convert the now truncated 30 bus, and take the 21 bus, and convert them to frequent bus routes. Also toss in one more bus for the 28 bus as well for a slight frequency increase. Mattapan riders maintain 1SR access to the Orange Line from Mattapan, or they can take the 21 bus or OL instead to access Forest Hills bus routes, or transfer at JP/Roxbury Crossing/Ruggles for LMA service (or take the 28 if BNRD ever extends the 28 to LMA).
* Cut the 40 and 50 buses back to Rozzie. Their frequencies are too low and need the frequency buff of a shorter route.
* Cut the 34/34E back to Rozzie. Those few minutes saved can up the frequency from every 17-18 minutes to every 15 minutes. We now have a brand new FBR.
* 35/36/37 -> let these routes continue to Forest Hills, it's already a FBR under BNRD and so truncating it doesn't make sense if we don't have enough layover space at Rozzie for all the buses to be truncated, and it's the only FBR meaning the Washington St corridor retains frequent bus service without losing it entirely.

Total brand new FBRs: 21, 30, 34 buses (3 corridors)

Then, if OLX is extended all the way to West Roxbury and Millenium Park, then:
* Eliminate the entirety of the 35/36/37's trunk portion, and replace it with a single combined 35/36/37 route serving the branches only. No more bus service on the 35/36/37 trunk needed anymore.
* Due to the elimination of the 35/36/37, the 42 bus can be extended from Forest Hills to Rozzie Square to cover local Washington St service.
* Take the freed up buses to increase frequency on one of the routes serving Hyde Park and extend the frequent grid some more, whether from Rozzie Square (50 bus), or from Mattapan (24 bus).

Total brand new FBRs: 21, 30, 34 buses + one more corridor (either the 24 or 50 bus)
 
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TheRatmeister said:
It's long but also, where are 34E riders going? I'd bet a good deal are going to LMA in which case no, truncating at Roslindale Sq is not a good idea.
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Right now the 34/34E run a 17-18 minute frequency in the trunk (with some weekday gaps of 20-30 minutes, but only because the weekday schedule isn't coordinated).

The route is slightly too long to run at a 15 minute frequency for it to be considered a frequent bus route.

To increase the frequency to every 15 minutes, the 34/34E have to be truncated back to Rozzie OLX station for the runtime to drop enough for 15 minute frequency to be achieveable. If the routes continue to Forest Hills even after Rozzie OLX, you can't have FBR status for the 34/34E corridor, meaning an entire corridor will miss out on frequent bus service.

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I wonder why theyd be talking about this all of a sudden when all mention of red-blue has seemingly faded away. Must be the cost right?

Either way even if its just short extensions like this we need to keep the projects going so the institutional memory stays in tact and were not completely relearning how to build transit from scratch every time something needs to get built.
 
stick n move said:
I wonder why theyd be talking about this all of a sudden when all mention of red-blue has seemingly faded away. Must be the cost right?

Either way even if its just short extensions like this we need to keep the projects going so the institutional memory stays in tact and were not completely relearning how to build transit from scratch every time something needs to get built.
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Perhaps it just caught some lawmaker's fancy or something.
 
stick n move said:
I wonder why theyd be talking about this all of a sudden when all mention of red-blue has seemingly faded away. Must be the cost right?

Either way even if its just short extensions like this we need to keep the projects going so the institutional memory stays in tact and were not completely relearning how to build transit from scratch every time something needs to get built.
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I also think a project like this is a good way to demonstrate "we can deliver things on-time and at a reasonable budget" and get buy-in for larger projects (eg BLX)
 
This is being discussed now because both the State House and State Senate are advancing bills to require the study. As to why that's happening now in particular, I don't know. OLX wasn't just in Go Boston 2030, it was also in the MBTA's Focus40 plan.

The Red/Blue Connector wouldn't be subject to the same Legislative action (or at least this precise language) since the MBTA has already begun to design it. The other project that is seeing some legislative attention is Buzzards Bay Commuter Rail, though that bill requires service to operate within one year, not just a study, which seems unrealistic.
 
Equilibria said:
This is being discussed now because both the State House and State Senate are advancing bills to require the study. As to why that's happening now in particular, I don't know. OLX wasn't just in Go Boston 2030, it was also in the MBTA's Focus40 plan.

The Red/Blue Connector wouldn't be subject to the same Legislative action (or at least this precise language) since the MBTA has already begun to design it. The other project that is seeing some legislative attention is Buzzards Bay Commuter Rail, though that bill requires service to operate within one year, not just a study, which seems unrealistic.
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I wonder if the defunct Plymouth Line (I'll never understand how Plymouth lost their service) can be reactivated/ extended to Buzzards Bay?
 
mass.streetsblog.org

Should the Orange Line to Roslindale Be The T's Next Rapid Transit Expansion? - Streetsblog Massachusetts

New housing, crowded buses, and underutilized commuter rail tracks help make the case to expand the Orange Line beyond Forest Hills, advocates argue.
mass.streetsblog.org mass.streetsblog.org
At the September 16th Joint Committee on Transportation hearing at the State House, policymakers and members of the public testified in support of the project. City Councilor Enrique Pepén, who represents Boston's District 5 (Mattapan, Hyde Park, Roslindale, and Readville), used his testimony time to advocate for both fare equity and the Orange Line expansion.
He argued that extending the Orange Line “would change the way commuters interact with the city,” in reducing congestion at Forest Hills, providing equitable access for residents, and strengthening local business districts like Roslindale Square.
Rep. MacGregor stressed that the current state of transit forces commuters to “wait an hour or an hour and a half for a train,” or take a bus to Forest Hills. But repurposing the Needham Line tracks for rapid transit service would make the project affordable, he argues. “Southwest Boston deserves the same access and reliability as other neighborhoods.”
Senator Mike Rush, whose district encompasses Dedham, West Roxbury, and Roslindale (and sponsor of companion bill S.2442), agreed with the cost-saving arguments made by McGregor, noting that existing infrastructure and right-of-way make this extension an achievable project compared to costlier megaprojects like the North-South Rail Link.
Paul Sewell, a Roslindale resident, spoke as a community member in support of the House bill. It’s “a no-brainer, really easy, relatively low-lift project,” Sewell argued, identifying Roslindale Village’s recent rezoning to allow 10-story buildings in select areas and nearly 600 new housing units as an opportunity for the extension to reinforce this growth.
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Delvin4519 said:
The routes we truncate or delete outright depends on if the OLX is only going +1 to Roslindale or full West Rox/Milennium Park extension.

If it's just OLX +1 to Roslindale then:
* Cut the 51 bus back to Rozzie, no doubt, frequency is too low and needs the shorter runtime for more frequency.
* Cut the 30 bus back to Rozzie, BUT, also delete the 31 bus outright, since the 31 unnecessarily duplicates the 28 and the 21 buses and the 31 bus prevents the 21 and the 30 buses from being frequent bus routes. If the OL goes to Rozzie Square, then convert the now truncated 30 bus, and take the 21 bus, and convert them to frequent bus routes. Also toss in one more bus for the 28 bus as well for a slight frequency increase. Mattapan riders maintain 1SR access to the Orange Line from Mattapan, or they can take the 21 bus or OL instead to access Forest Hills bus routes, or transfer at JP/Roxbury Crossing/Ruggles for LMA service (or take the 28 if BNRD ever extends the 28 to LMA).
* Cut the 40 and 50 buses back to Rozzie. Their frequencies are too low and need the frequency buff of a shorter route.
* Cut the 34/34E back to Rozzie. Those few minutes saved can up the frequency from every 17-18 minutes to every 15 minutes. We now have a brand new FBR.
* 35/36/37 -> let these routes continue to Forest Hills, it's already a FBR under BNRD and so truncating it doesn't make sense if we don't have enough layover space at Rozzie for all the buses to be truncated, and it's the only FBR meaning the Washington St corridor retains frequent bus service without losing it entirely.

Total brand new FBRs: 21, 30, 34 buses (3 corridors)

Then, if OLX is extended all the way to West Roxbury and Millenium Park, then:
* Eliminate the entirety of the 35/36/37's trunk portion, and replace it with a single combined 35/36/37 route serving the branches only. No more bus service on the 35/36/37 trunk needed anymore.
* Due to the elimination of the 35/36/37, the 42 bus can be extended from Forest Hills to Rozzie Square to cover local Washington St service.
* Take the freed up buses to increase frequency on one of the routes serving Hyde Park and extend the frequent grid some more, whether from Rozzie Square (50 bus), or from Mattapan (24 bus).

Total brand new FBRs: 21, 30, 34 buses + one more corridor (either the 24 or 50 bus)
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If I'm following this correctly, this would leave the Upper Busway at Forest Hills used only by:
  • The 35, 36, 37, 38, and 39 in the OL + 1
  • The 38 and 39 in the full OLX scenario
It would also make Rozzie Square the terminus for:
  • The 14, 30, 34, 34E, 40, 50, and 51 in the OL+1
    • Plus served by the 35/36/37
  • The 14, 30, 34, 34E, 40, 42, 50, and 51 in the full OLX
I'm with this in spirit, but I don't think anyone really wants a Rozzie Square busway designed to handle this much layover. You'd essentially need to convert the entirety of both CR lots at Roslindale Village to bus facilities. The Forest Hills Upper Busway is a great place for this sort of layover; Roslindale Village is not.

In the full OLX scenario, perhaps these bus termini could be spread out somewhat across the more distal stations of the OLX? Maybe something like:
  • Run the 34, 34E, 40, and 50 down W Roxbury Parkway from Washington and terminate them in a layover at the new Highland in the lot next to Roche Brothers?
  • End the 34 and 34E at a new VFW / Millennium Park OL station, accessed by VFW Parkway?
A full-full GLX to Needham would also decrease need for the 59.

stick n move said:
I wonder why theyd be talking about this all of a sudden when all mention of red-blue has seemingly faded away. Must be the cost right?

Either way even if its just short extensions like this we need to keep the projects going so the institutional memory stays in tact and were not completely relearning how to build transit from scratch every time something needs to get built.
Click to expand...
At the end of the day what has actually gotten the green light here is $100k for a study of a project that would cost hundreds of millions. That's like putting down a hundred bucks for a Ferrari. This is still nowhere even remotely close to a "go."

With respect to OLX vs Red-Blue, I think there's a potential case that OLX would actually get us better bang-for-the-buck. Hence, a study is a good first step. Nothing against Red-Blue, but it was more appealing in the pre-COVID world where the core was at capacity.
 
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JumboBuc said:
I'm with this in spirit, but I don't think anyone really wants a Rozzie Square busway designed to handle this much layover. You'd essentially need to convert the entirety of both CR lots at Roslindale Village to bus facilities. The Forest Hills Upper Busway is a great place for this sort of layover; Roslindale Village is not.
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This is the big problem. Forest Hills has a huge bus handling facility, it's right next to the Arborway garage, and it's well situated for transfers between buses on multiple corridors. This is not a coincidence, it's been designed for this for literally more than 100 years. No OLX station can do that.
 
JumboBuc said:
Do a cut-and-cover through Cassidy Playground so Cleveland Circle connects with Chestnut Hill and run the C to Needham.

View attachment 69393

This also would also open the door to moving much of the maintenance and layover at the Reservoir Carhouse out to Needham Junction.
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I recognize that face! Is your new profile pic the face of the guy who’d appear and say “ do you really want to do this” when you’d build like a coal power plant next to resi in simcity????
 
TheRatmeister said:
This is the big problem. Forest Hills has a huge bus handling facility, it's right next to the Arborway garage, and it's well situated for transfers between buses on multiple corridors. This is not a coincidence, it's been designed for this for literally more than 100 years. No OLX station can do that.
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The loop around the square also just doesn’t make sense to have tons of buses moving through it. The question is whether more people would choose to get off in Roslindale and walk from Washington Street to the new Orange line station, or sit on traffic in Washington Street until they got to Forest Hills.
 
TheRatmeister said:
This is the big problem. Forest Hills has a huge bus handling facility, it's right next to the Arborway garage, and it's well situated for transfers between buses on multiple corridors. This is not a coincidence, it's been designed for this for literally more than 100 years. No OLX station can do that.
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I agree. From a practical standpoint, it's hard not to continue having most of the buses terminate at Forest Hills. I'd definitely have some of the terminate in Roslindale, especially if it can lead to better frequencies. But only Forest Hills can operationally handle most of these, which is okay. Buses don't need to all terminate at the last station on the subway line. Of those that continue up Washington, most could probably be run as express service, which would do a lot for the bus riders coming from Dedham and West Roxbury who, for whatever reason, don't want to make the transfer in Roslindale.
 
HenryAlan said:
I agree. From a practical standpoint, it's hard not to continue having most of the buses terminate at Forest Hills. I'd definitely have some of the terminate in Roslindale, especially if it can lead to better frequencies. But only Forest Hills can operationally handle most of these, which is okay. Buses don't need to all terminate at the last station on the subway line. Of those that continue up Washington, most could probably be run as express service, which would do a lot for the bus riders coming from Dedham and West Roxbury who, for whatever reason, don't want to make the transfer in Roslindale.
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Go Boston 2030's action plan also proposed in tandem an express bus layer on the Washington bus lanes to speed travel times to Rozzie Square, as a lower-reach prerequisite that predates the OL extension. With those services pre-existing, you could basically optimize the bus lanes to function as de facto revenue equipment transfers (like a somewhat less-stealth 77A appearing on multiple routes) for a lot of routes that stop going local at Rozzie Square, and only keep a couple routes making the half-dozen intermediate stops between the two. That'll satiate the bus-to-bus transfers that need to be done only at FH with a little more strategic granularity and keep traffic on Washington flowing a little better. It definitely doesn't have to be all-or-nothing.

Basically, it's a tradeoff of what routes gain the most reinvested additional service being shorted at Rozzie with the same equipment vs. which routes by their given route characteristics wouldn't see as much increased frequency by being culled. If you can cycle the same equipment to noticeably greater frequency, you probably gain more new ridership than you lose by making bus-to-bus @ FH an extra seat. It will definitely vary by route which ones are more appropriate, and it'll take an in-depth ops study to tease out which ones have the most leverage.
 
If Needham went full Orange (and Green on the other end), wouldn't there be enough room in the ROW to fit essentially a "return" bus route to Forest Hills? So buses could drop off at Rozzie Square OL station, then entire this bus lane in the ROW and go direct/express to Forest Hill skipping Washington St (and keeping passengers). Once at Forest Hill they could go back out normal routes and down Washington St if needed (for those not just starting/terminating at the Square).
 
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