Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

Re: North-South Rail Link

But the link would require dedicated, new, underground platforms at NS and SS. You would already have cross platform transfers there. In regards to transfers, central station is just superfluous.

I'm also not seeing why access to PO square and State St isn't served just fine by a two stop ride on the orange line from north station. It's half the walking distance then from aquarium, and the central station money could be spent on increasing frequencies.

So that really just leaves BL access. The silver line serves the airport better (don't forget the BL requires a bus transfer to get to the airport). Again, spending the central station money on improving the SL (maybe by connecting it to the green line) would be the greater benefit.

It's like the south coast rail issue. It's a decent project in principle, but every dollar spent would be far more transformative spent on almost anything else.

Build the link in a way a central station could be added eventually. Spend the money saved on excellent transfers at NS and SS, the red-blue, OL frequencies, and the silver line. You benefit far more people than the central station ever would.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

I'm also not seeing why access to PO square and State St isn't served just fine by a two stop ride on the orange line from north station.
'cause that's a connection & a walk (and backtracking, if you're from the Southside)...commuters hate all 3. Sorry, they just do. If you're advocating for a transit-friendly city the transit has to be suburban-rail-commuter-friendly.

So that really just leaves BL access. The silver line serves the airport better
As a commuting option the BL is about getting Eastie/Revere to their {workplace}, which the BL sucks at given a bad connection at Orange, and even with Red-Blue, it'd be painful to backtrack on Red after a connection at MGH. If you fail to connect to Blue, you further isolate/impoverish the Blue communities who want to get to where CR can take them.

Even with a Red-Blue and SL Gateway, these will still be sucky:
Blue-Orange-North Station->NNN,
Blue-Orange-BackBay->WWW,
Blue-Red/Silver-South->SSS

Spend the money saved on excellent transfers at NS and SS
Problem is, excellent transfers may require a freakisly-expensive cavern instead of the more affordable tubes-with-cross-hallways.

So Alon Levy's point has strived to create "no cavern" NS and SS "excellent connections" cross-platform connections for V and L-shaped trips (in-and-back-out) like this:
ldtbm.png

While *someplace* there should be an excellent connection for thru travellers, like this:
ldtbm7.png
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

^ Old Colony Line's portal is another thing to slash btw... too pricey and not enough capacity in Dorchester to make the cost of a portal worth it until the pinch is fixed...
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

So is there to be just a Back Bay portal? What about a portal for Fairmont/Old Colony for DMU/EMU service (not on Old Colony obviously) and for trains to reach the CR shops in Southie?

boston-north-south-raillink.gif


While looking for that map I stumbled upon this proposal.

boston-tunnel-logan-nationalmap-gov-streets-2012.gif


While what the writer is proposing is connecting major regional airports via rail the more important idea is there to be a Back Bay (or now a West Station) to Logan shuttle route swinging up through Chelsea. The map above shows an alternative route up through Revere to avoid the Chelsea lift bridge (or expensive tunnel).

I think that this type of service, perhaps terminating at R128, would be highly beneficial is creating a one seat ride for suburban passengers going to Logan that would cut down on auto traffic and subway transfers (with luggage!) I see this as being most beneficial to Amtrak routes which could terminate at Logan while hitting Back Bay, South, and North Stations. Are those not the 4 largest transportation hubs in the city? In one go you can hit them all!
 
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Re: North-South Rail Link

I wouldn't be surprised if the initial build works out to be one southside portal for NEC/Worcester and one northside for the New Hampshire Main route and the Boston & Maine Western/Eastern routes. Fairmount ought to get a portal eventually (can't really run "revolutionary" RER-style routes without it) but those portal connectors are damn expensive.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

So....in addition to these worthy concepts, why not consider Blue-North Station as well?

Either:
- Downhill from Bowdoin under Staniford, or...
- A sharp turn north at aquarium, parallel to new NSRL tracks under the CAT / Merrimack st (with the state st tunnel repurposed for GL or as a pedestrian connection , thats a longer story..)

..and then connect to red either:
- by continuing BL under embankment rd from NS to Charles MGH
- by continuing BL under / over Charles River to Kendall, linking to existing RL station near Volpe

...that gets you a direct Heavy connection to Logan from the entire future-state new england rail system (especially helpful if you branch and direct connect to terminals - that would get you into plane/train 'Codeshare' territory) , while also making the BL much more useful to everyone (in part as a shortcut from RL to NS bypassing Park) ..... without the cost and schedule impact of a Central Station
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

I think that this type of service, perhaps terminating at R128, would be highly beneficial is creating a one seat ride for suburban passengers going to Logan that would cut down on auto traffic and subway transfers (with luggage!) I see this as being most beneficial to Amtrak routes which could terminate at Logan while hitting Back Bay, South, and North Stations. Are those not the 4 largest transportation hubs in the city? In one go you can hit them all!

Van -- won't happen for one not so obvious reason $$$$$

Specifically -- Massport masquerades as an airport operator -- However, the reality is quite different -- a C-level member of Massport told me that when he joined on he discovered to his surprise that the Massport was really an enormous parking operator with an airport and seaport attached

All of the Massport bonds -- and hence Massport -- are ultimately backed by the revenues generated by Massport operations and the largest single chunk is the parking revenues

Massport would not permit anything that would seriously jeopardize the parking revenues -- which by the way will increase even more due to the current work on expanding central parking
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Hey don't ruin my fantasy with reality :( !

whigh: That's the behind-the-curtain stuff I love to know, how the sausage is made.

Money+power=do what you must to hold on to it.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Van -- won't happen for one not so obvious reason $$$$$

Specifically -- Massport masquerades as an airport operator -- However, the reality is quite different -- a C-level member of Massport told me that when he joined on he discovered to his surprise that the Massport was really an enormous parking operator with an airport and seaport attached

All of the Massport bonds -- and hence Massport -- are ultimately backed by the revenues generated by Massport operations and the largest single chunk is the parking revenues

Massport would not permit anything that would seriously jeopardize the parking revenues -- which by the way will increase even more due to the current work on expanding central parking

Hmm, there's some irony there somewhere... In reality, wouldn't this type of Back Bay-to-Airport routing increase capacity to the airport rather than necessarily take away from the people driving to the airport? And if it did get built, I'd like to think that maybe a more progressive Massport board/CEO might be able to shift the parking and revenues toward NY/NJ Port Authority-style satellite downtown on their own property. Isn't that already the idea behind the ConRAC they just built - to more efficiently capitalise on the land they have?

While we're talking about those expensive portals, is there any routing that would allow better, less conflicted access to the beloved Track 61 for terminating some trains in the seaport district? It seems to be a slightly more obvious corollary to digging the NSRL tunnels than Back Bay-to-Airport routing via Chelsea. Obviously there are easier, cheaper ways to add transit capacity and improve access there, but like this whole discussion, doesn't it make sense to capitalise on the construction and disruption of a supposed NSRL while we're doing it? Or does this just simply fall out of the scope of what we want to even consider for NSRL. I really just want to get rid of that flat name and rebrand it as something like New England Crossrail because this really shouldn't just be about linking North and South Stations; I'd want to see this project be about bringing equity back to transit mobility for the region.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

What happened of discussion some years back of upgrading the Grand Junction Line through Cambridge? That is the existing connection between the North and South sections of the rail network used for just moving commuter rail trains between the two sections (at night) and some freight.

Although not direct between North and South Stations, adding a second set of tracks to some of the sections through Cambridge (looks like there are already two tracks in some sections)... depressed to avoid the at street level crossings at Mass Ave, Main St, Binney St, Cambridge St, and Medford St... it would accomplish much of the same thing as a North-South Rail Link between North and South Stations and possibly more. And I would have to guesstimate that it would be at least several billions of dollars less expensive than the old 1 mile North-South Rail link along the big dig route would be. Put a station with some service in Kendall Square/MIT and you get added utility and support from the business community and MIT.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

What happened of discussion some years back of upgrading the Grand Junction Line through Cambridge? That is the existing connection between the North and South sections of the rail network used for just moving commuter rail trains between the two sections (at night) and some freight.

Although not direct between North and South Stations, adding a second set of tracks to some of the sections through Cambridge (looks like there are already two tracks in some sections)... depressed to avoid the at street level crossings at Mass Ave, Main St, Binney St, Cambridge St, and Medford St... it would accomplish much of the same thing as a North-South Rail Link between North and South Stations and possibly more. And I would have to guesstimate that it would be at least several billions of dollars less expensive than the old 1 mile North-South Rail link along the big dig route would be. Put a station with some service in Kendall Square/MIT and you get added utility and support from the business community and MIT.

The Grand Junction is the routing being held out for the Urban Ring transit link.

One of the big purposes of the North-South Rail Link is to eliminate the need to run heavy rail around the Grand Junction -- opening it up for an Urban Ring rapid transit.

Also, there are issues with depressing the Grand Junction around MIT, especially for heavy rail (grade restrictions) -- read the Urban Ring thread. Things like the Red Line, just under Main Street...
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

... it would accomplish much of the same thing as a North-South Rail Link between North and South Stations and possibly more...

Facepalm. No. It would not.

Let's look at some of the most important one-seat rides created by the N-S Rail Link (listed in no particular order). Name me a single one of these that are accomplished at least as effectively with the Grand Junction. The answer is NONE

  • Gloucester and South Station
  • Beverly and South Station
  • Salem and South Station
  • Swampscott and South Station
  • Lynn and South Station
  • Newburyport and South Station
  • Ipswich and South Station
  • Haverhill and South Station
  • Lawrence and South Station
  • Andover and South Station
  • Reading and South Station
  • Wakefield and South Station
  • Lowell and South Station
  • North Billerica and South Station
  • Wilmington and South Station
  • Anderson RTC and South Station
  • Winchester Center and South Station
  • Wedgemere and South Station
  • West Medford and South Station
  • Fitchburg and South Station
  • South Acton and South Station
  • West Concord and South Station
  • Concord and South Station
  • Waltham and South Station
  • Gloucester and Back Bay
  • Beverly and Back Bay
  • Salem and Back Bay
  • Swampscott and Back Bay
  • Lynn and Back Bay
  • Newburyport and Back Bay
  • Ipswich and Back Bay
  • Haverhill and Back Bay
  • Lawrence and Back Bay
  • Andover and Back Bay
  • Reading and Back Bay
  • Wakefield and Back Bay
  • Lowell and Back Bay
  • North Billerica and Back Bay
  • Wilmington and Back Bay
  • Anderson RTC and Back Bay
  • Winchester Center and Back Bay
  • Wedgemere and Back Bay
  • West Medford and Back Bay
  • Fitchburg and Back Bay
  • South Acton and Back Bay
  • West Concord and Back Bay
  • Concord and Back Bay
  • Waltham and Back Bay
  • Portland and South Station
  • Portland and Back Bay
  • Portland and Providence
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Grand Junction connects points west of the city to Cambridge and North Station. Granted that is no small thing, but it doesn't do much else. Its value as a LRV or BRT corridor are much greater.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Any use of the Grand Junction for North/South commuter traffic is going to require reverses moves at the terminal stations. From what I understand, that's operationally messy. It congests the Worcester and Fitchberg/Lowell lines with the reversing traffic.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Any use of the Grand Junction for North/South commuter traffic is going to require reverses moves at the terminal stations. From what I understand, that's operationally messy. It congests the Worcester and Fitchberg/Lowell lines with the reversing traffic.

No it wouldn't, there is room to turn. From the satellite view it appears there were tracks that made the turn at some point.

Edit: Okay, I see what you are saying. It could turn but then it runs into the Mass Pike. So yes it would probably have to reverse directions... But if the proposed West Station comes to fruition then we could be talking about a North-West-South Link and it could reverse directions after making a stop at the station. Yes it adds time compared with the Big Dig version of the N-S Link, but ultimately you get more utility for a fraction of the cost.

And you can still build the N-S direct link someday when someone has an extra $8 Billion to build a mile of train tracks... sorry couldn't resist the dig... or should I say big dig.
 
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Re: North-South Rail Link

The Grand Junction is the routing being held out for the Urban Ring transit link.

One of the big purposes of the North-South Rail Link is to eliminate the need to run heavy rail around the Grand Junction -- opening it up for an Urban Ring rapid transit.

Also, there are issues with depressing the Grand Junction around MIT, especially for heavy rail (grade restrictions) -- read the Urban Ring thread. Things like the Red Line, just under Main Street...

Yes, thought of the red line after I posted. Couldn't find anything on how deep the red line tunnel was.

Bottom line is that if you couldn't get funding for a N-S Rail link during the biggest boondoggle project in US history, then it isn't going to happen in any conceivable scenario. The important thing is to connect the lines.

Although I think BRT would be preferable for Grand Junction, how do you do it in both directions without losing the existing track which is de facto the existing North-South link

Update: Just read this article talking about BU potentially help pay for a West Station: http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2015/03/16/and-deval-patrick-almost-had-deal-west-station-funding/jkkIUyTIwjHg6lHIHijHRL/story.html?p1=feature_stack_1_hp

So, it seams like it would be very worthwhile to have Grand Junction kept as commuter rail and connected with actual service.
 
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Re: North-South Rail Link

No it wouldn't, there is room to turn. From the satellite view it appears there were tracks that made the turn at some point.

Edit: Okay, I see what you are saying. It could turn but then it runs into the Mass Pike. So yes it would probably have to reverse directions... But if the proposed West Station comes to fruition then we could be talking about a North-West-South Link and it could reverse directions after making a stop at the station. Yes it adds time compared with the Big Dig version of the N-S Link, but ultimately you get more utility for a fraction of the cost.

And you can still build the N-S direct link someday when someone has an extra $8 Billion to build a mile of train tracks... sorry couldn't resist the dig... or should I say big dig.

Pull into North Station, change ends. Pull into Allston Station, change ends. Pull into South Station, rinse-repeat. Besides the engineer walking from one end to the other, changing ends requires a full break test, recharging the break pipe, and a bunch of other checklist procedures. Doing this twice is insane, and would take for ever. Oh, and people would be riding backwards half the ride.

The Grand Junction's utility is for the daily CSX produce job to Everett Terminal, commuter trains from the west to be able to go to North Station, and for a restored Amtrak Inland Regional to be able to connect to Portland. If the link is ever built, it's use is in being converted to a light rail section of the urban ring, probably as a green line spurr. That's it. The end. Full Stop.

tangent said:
Although I think BRT would be preferable for Grand Junction, how do you do it in both directions without losing the existing track which is de facto the existing North-South link

What is your obsession with replacing a high capacity system with a lesser one? Besides the fact that you'd have to replace the bridge over the Charles to accommodate buses, you are decreasing capacity, speed, and efficiency while increasing ROW width and emissions for... what, exactly?

square_wheels.jpg

Stop reinventing the wheel. You look silly.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Pull into North Station, change ends. Pull into Allston Station, change ends. Pull into South Station, rinse-repeat. Besides the engineer walking from one end to the other, changing ends requires a full break test, recharging the break pipe, and a bunch of other checklist procedures. Doing this twice is insane, and would take for ever. Oh, and people would be riding backwards half the ride.

The Grand Junction's utility is for the daily CSX produce job to Everett Terminal, commuter trains from the west to be able to go to North Station, and for a restored Amtrak Inland Regional to be able to connect to Portland. If the link is ever built, it's use is in being converted to a light rail section of the urban ring, probably as a green line spurr. That's it. The end. Full Stop.



What is your obsession with replacing a high capacity system with a lesser one? Besides the fact that you'd have to replace the bridge over the Charles to accommodate buses, you are decreasing capacity, speed, and efficiency while increasing ROW width and emissions for... what, exactly?

square_wheels.jpg

Stop reinventing the wheel. You look silly.

+1.

I feel as if people (tangent and others) would better understand the N-S Rail Link's utility if it were called "Access to South Station" or "Access to the Northeast Corridor" with reference to the North Side Commuter Rail Lines. That is the utility of this project, and that would not be served at all by the Grand Junction.

While it would be useful to have a one-seat ride that gets you technically from South Station to North Station, that is not the point of the project, and would not be worth the cost. The point is to provide a one-seat ride from points north of Boston to South Station, Back Bay, and points south of Boston.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

I wouldn't be surprised if the initial build works out to be one southside portal for NEC/Worcester and one northside for the New Hampshire Main route and the Boston & Maine Western/Eastern routes. Fairmount ought to get a portal eventually (can't really run "revolutionary" RER-style routes without it) but those portal connectors are damn expensive.

There's only ever going to be one northside portal - there's more than 3000 feet from end of platform to the point where Fitchburg trains need to peel off. If you're willing to build a flyover through the yard, you get another ~1450 feet to work with - but either way, there's definitely enough room to work with so that trains from anywhere north of Boston can utilize the same singular portal. (Certainly at the ridiculous grades that Alon Levy wants (he seriously suggested 4% grade!), but it's doable at reasonable grades as well - 1.5% from 65 feet down, which is absolutely achievable.)

There's no way around needing two portals for the south side, but there's also no point in assuming that the bottleneck through Fairmount (and potentially the Old Colony Lines bottleneck) won't have been solved years before the shovels are actually in the ground for the Rail Link, so I honestly can't see this thing getting built without all three of the portals it ultimately needs.

That aside, I frankly can't see the point in facilitating same-direction cross-platform transfers here at all. If there's enough demand for, e.g., Westwood - Manchester and Westwood - Portsmouth, then it makes more sense to run an even split of your through traffic on each route pairing than it does to arbitrarily fix route-pairs and force transfers through the downtown crunch. I would expect branch-to-branch demand to be roughly evenly distributed across every major branch pairing (e.g., Lowell-Concord, Haverhill-Durham, Portsmouth, Portland on the north, Providence-south, Worcester-west, Cape Cod and Fairmount on the south) such that you could have 2 TPH per direction per branch. That gives you 8 TPH from four distinct places going to four distinct other places through the Rail Link (32 TPH per direction total) and you've still got somewhere between 8 TPH and 20 TPH (dependent on signaling) for whatever local _MU service(s) you're going to be running through the Link, plus Amtrak's needs. (That's not including any service which terminates downtown, which I would easily expect to cover all of the gaps created ex. on the Worcester Line by having to coordinate Link through slots with the other branches - such that even though you're down to 8 TPH through the Link you've got another 12+ TPH with Boston as its final terminal.) Essentially, you can reasonably cover every route pairing option with single-seat rides and have nobody waiting more than half an hour to facilitate that single-seat ride. 90% of your ridership is going to wait for the single-seat ride, and I don't see the point in spending to huge expense facilitating cross-platform transfers for the other 10%; especially given that if they're in that much of a hurry they're liable to not even care about waiting for a coordinated transfer as opposed to grabbing the next train and working it out downtown.

Dropping Central Station also massively simplifies operations because not only do you not need to screw around with your elevations in the Link to facilitate that third station, but you also don't need to worry about stopping every single train there.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Hi! I saw this thread in blog referrer stats. I wrote something but it got eaten. A few comments:

1. Having just one South Side portal at Back Bay is a nonstarter. Through-running is useful mainly for local service, not longer-range service. In Paris, the RER is more local than the Transilien network (which stub-ends at the traditional terminals), and in Tokyo, the Keihin-Tohoku and Yamanote Lines provide local service, while longer-distance commuter service only began running through about a week ago. In Boston, the Fairmount Line has the most local demand while the Providence and Worcester Lines have the longest-range demand, so it's necessary to include them in the scheme.

2. The plans for the NSRL involve two 40'-diameter bores, and as I understand, this is what the space left in the Big Dig is for. This diameter is (barely) large enough to fit two tracks with platforms, as in the diagrams of mine that Arlington posted above. Thus, the cost of a station at Aquarium is likely to be very low. I agree that it's a waste of money at $1 billion, but with large-diameter bores, it's likely to cost a fraction of that. I think even $250 million is a good deal given the Blue Line connection.

3. Electrification is extremely useful independently of the NSRL, although the two projects work best together (NSRL requires electrification, and electrification is more useful if North Side commuters have access to South Station). The current MBTA consists have an acceleration time penalty of 70 seconds just from 0 to 60 mph. The borderline-vaporware Colorado Railcars are at 43 seconds. In YouTube videos, the UIC-compliant Talent DMU has a 33-second penalty to 100 km/h, and the FLIRT EMU has a 14-second one (as does the FRA-compliant Silverliner V), and only 24 seconds to 160 km/h. This allows all-stop trains to get from Boston to Providence in 42 minutes, including schedule contingency. Systemwide there are 530 km to electrify, and at 90s-era NEC electrification cost it would cost $1.5-2 billion, plus around $500 million for extensions to Hyannis, New Bedford, and Manchester. But EMUs are cheaper to buy, maintain, and run than diesel trains, so the lifetime cost of electrification is negative.

4. Amtrak's proposed third track is of no use. If the MBTA goes EMU, Amtrak has no need for overtakes unless it speeds the Acela to true HSR speeds, about 300 km/h. A 300 km/h Acela would have to overtake the Providence Line at two places: Readville-Route 128, where there's space for two additional tracks, and Attleboro, where there already are four tracks. That would allow 15-minute frequencies for each of high-speed rail, Providence Line trains, and New Bedford/Fall River trains. Short, strategic four-track overtakes are better than long three-track segments.

5. To minimize the complexity of flying junctions at the North Side portal, it's better to have fixed pairings of lines, the opposite of what Commuting Boston Student suggests. It also simplifies schedule planning. (Cross-platform transfers are useful in either case, by the way.)

6. The Grand Junction could be activated, with double track and a connection to the inner direction Worcester Line rather than the outer one, to create a circle line. It'd be a suboptimal line because it's too narrow a diameter, though - the ideal circle line would roughly follow the 66 from Harvard to Dudley, but would also require a lot of greenfield tunneling. If the Grand Junction is used in service, trains should be electrified ahead of all other lines, run every 10-15 minutes at worst, and make frequent stops. Transfers to other lines include Main Street for Kendall/MIT (with a lot of walking), Brickbottom near Route 23 for the GLX, BU for the B branch, and maybe Hynes for the Green Line trunk.

7. It goes without saying that double-tracking all inner lines is required. It's also an order of magnitude cheaper than the tunnel.

8. There should be some additional infill stops on lines other than Fairmount, using EMUs' very high acceleration rates to maintain fast schedules with more stops. The Fitchburg Line should stop more in Cambridge, e.g. at Union Square and Neighborhood Nine. The Lowell Line should have a transfer to the GLX, e.g. at Tufts or Brickbottom. The Worcester Line should have more stops in Allston and Brighton. On some lines there is room for both local and express service, e.g. local trains to Brandeis, and trains to Fitchburg skipping many stops in Cambridge. In contrast, stations that can't be served full-time shouldn't be served at all. Sorry, Mishawum, River Works, Plimptonville, Hastings, and Silver Hill.

9. Amtrak shouldn't really be part of the tunnel. The surface rail schedule should accommodate high-speed rail if Amtrak decides to run any, but the tunnel should be built for local and regional trains. Even if there's high-speed rail south to New York, I can see maybe one hourly train to Maine use the tunnel for New York-Portland through-service. If the schedule and the line pairing can accommodate it then great, but if not, there's only so much money that should go to a train to Portland.
 

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