Silver Line to Chelsea

Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

What about the issues in getting more silver line busses to add capacity on the already strained portions of the line in the waterfront. When could this be turned around with not only the new build but new busses to maintain and increase headways.
New Diesel Electrics have come up in another thread. F-Line says that finding a manufacturer to assemble identical buses based on the proven design and components is the way to go. The T owns the plans and the component choices were bullet-proof (Skoda chassis and propulsion motors, and a standard, reliable diesel). It seems mostly to take a decision to find more buses and get a manufacturer (assembler, really).
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

System connectivity- you could make the busway rail, but then it would have to end at Airport Station at best (and be an isolated island), whereas BRT can go into the Ted Williams Tunnel and continue to the transitway. (I think that's the plan, anyway?)

While I'm usually a big fan of rail projects, as long as we have to share highway infrastructure I have to admit there are compelling reasons for buses. And once the connecting rail infrastructure exists, the route will be there and able to be converted.

This is the Urban Ring route. It would connect to the system at Lechmere. They're going to end up upgrading to LRV someday, and this is just going to make it cost more money overall to convert it later than if they just did it now.

That being said, Chelsea needs better transit NOW, and if this is all the MBTA can do without financial overhaul, it's the best we're going to get.
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

This is the Urban Ring route. It would connect to the system at Lechmere. They're going to end up upgrading to LRV someday, and this is just going to make it cost more money overall to convert it later than if they just did it now.

That being said, Chelsea needs better transit NOW, and if this is all the MBTA can do without financial overhaul, it's the best we're going to get.

this is what I was trying to say, why waste the money on inadequate transport only to build better later it just costs more later. a tunnel under the harbor for rail from southie to eastie will be built eventually why not just do it now and save the cost of later conversion?
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

This is the Urban Ring route. It would connect to the system at Lechmere. They're going to end up upgrading to LRV someday, and this is just going to make it cost more money overall to convert it later than if they just did it now.
"Someday" is beyond the useful life (20yrs...40yrs?) of basically any infrastructure they lay down now, whether road or rail. By the time the "other rail" is ready to be tied into, it'd be time to rip up and lay down new any rail you laid now. Same goes for some bridges--they may not need to be rail ready today, because by the time the rail is ready for them, they'll be at their replacement age anyway.
That being said, Chelsea needs better transit NOW, and if this is all the MBTA can do without financial overhaul, it's the best we're going to get.
That's how I see it.
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

The only thing selecting this alternative does is implicitly tell Chelsea "Fuck no, we're never building this." It's the single most expensive alternative evaluated with the single most lavish station construction. They can't fund that this decade. It'll take years longer to design and EIS than the other alternatives. CTDOT impaling itself trying to design its FasTrak busway next to a double-track RR with grade crossings and draining its coffers of >$1B and going >60% over-budget on all the engineering red flags that are turning up will increase costs, lengthen schedule, and throw cold water on the feasibility before the T even gets started on a final design. There are portions of it like the 100 ft. pinched teardrop loop at the mall that defy the laws of physics for turning a 60-footer. And they are foregoing an interim solution of express buses on-street as a Phase I implementable quickly with nothing more than purchasing more SL vehicles and Key Bus Route-ing the shared street level stops. Which would be the only way to bridge the likely 10-year gap on the design + build with something, anything in the way of improved Chelsea service.

What does his tell us? That they aren't serious about building it. That it's another neighborhood pump-and-dump. Set the expectations and price tag too high to do, propose no interim ops-based route-priming that backstops the overoptimistic build schedule and holds them to any commitment of finishing the job. Leave themselves an out to never revisit it again. Throw it in the file cabinet next to the Urban Ring and 28X.

It is the same fucking playbook as every other time they've done this. They're not even changing up the pitch a little bit trying for a "this time it'll be different!" message. It's the same thing as ever.
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

This concept is very similar to the east busway in Pittsburgh that Iuse just about every day. The real advantage is that not only can the siver line use this transit way, but so can other local routes creating faster service for a much larger area then just the silverline.
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

The Pgh East Busway was constructed before costs started spiraling out of control on these types of projects. It also runs in a much larger combined rail/bus right-of-way.
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

And they are foregoing an interim solution of express buses on-street as a Phase I implementable quickly with nothing more than purchasing more SL vehicles and Key Bus Route-ing the shared street level stops. Which would be the only way to bridge the likely 10-year gap on the design + build with something, anything in the way of improved Chelsea service.

What does his tell us? That they aren't serious about building it. That it's another neighborhood pump-and-dump. ... It's the same thing as ever.

I don't see how any service from South Station was ever going to be 2-4 years away when they aren't actively in the market for new Diesel-Electric vehicles. If you want to point to them not being serious about fast, wouldn't that be it?

Meanwhile, isn't the real fast-and-easy (no build?) trip one that grabbed some conventional-length and diesel-fueled buses to extended the 112 to from Wood Island to Airport+Seaport, or create 114/116/117 "A" variants that took the Eastie Haul Road to the Aiport+Seaport (terminating at Silver Line way...not needing electric...but also not able to be CNG for tunnel-safety)
 
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Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

Yes, that's a notable failure from a nearby state, but in-state, I don't recall the Southie and Eastie haul roads being problems

Southie and Eastie Haul roads were built on rail yards. Track 61 was a 3- and 4-track yard lead that fanned out at W. 1st St. into multi-dozen track freight yard that covered almost the entire area of the Seaport. Southie Haul doesn't veer any closer to 30 ft. to Track 61 there is so much space in that cut. Could probably still (tightly) fit 2 tracks on the rail side if they wanted to.

Eastie was a 4-track yard lead that fanned into an 8-10 track freight yard; the whole area between the Blue Line tracks and Brennan St. was yard, with the street grid and 1A viaduct built to pass overhead on stilts sort of like the Pike Viaduct at Beacon Park. When the yard withered away in the 60's and 70's they simply dumped earthen fill on both sides of the cut until the yard was up to street level and the remaining thru tracks had a narrow, sloped embankment ROW instead of a retaining wall. All those parking lots and DPW salt/sand piles underneath 1A today sit on landfilled freight yard. They're building Eastie Haul by scooping out enough fill to put 2 lanes in and propping up the remaining fill with new retaining walls. If they ever needed to go back and rework it for a side-by-side LRT line, they can just scoop out the rest of the fill to the buried original retaining walls and have the same space to work with as the Track 61/Southie Haul cut.

Very, very different situations than what we're talking here.



CT FasTrak is the same as the Eastern Route. Active mainline rail ROW with lots of grade crossings in the portion co-mingled with the busway, and tighter property lines because it's a main and not the entrance to a yard. All of the "shit happens" they're finding in West Hartford and Hartford with that stretch of the busway is applicable in Chelsea. Nightmarish mitigation around the crossings and numerous unforeseen safety issues forcing design revisions (fewer here, but if the idea is to let any local Everett/Chelsea buses pool onto the busway you've got a major problem with bad-angle turns in a 60-footer across the tracks). Adjacent wetlands and underground streams (there's a subterranean stream lining the whole north property line of the Mall). Overhead bridges that have to be torn up because they're too narrow (couple question marks listed in the slides). Unanticipated extra private property acquisition (see the hilariously narrow Mall loop here...they're going to need 2x the acreage and have to nuke the northernmost Mall driveway onto Everett St. to widen that out). Unanticipated extra private abutter mitigation (see the close-hanging buildings on Washington Ave. and the industrial loading docks on the ROW at Eastern Ave.).

Etc., etc. This, in addition to overly opulent stations, is where CT FasTrak racked up a 60% cost increase that's still ballooning. All of the design revisions they had to do with each nagging unanticipated complication added cost, added time, and forced reduction in speeds and level of service. So many unanticipated things came along that that project devolved into "make shit up as you go along and revise it 15 times, because we totally whiffed on our hypothesis that BRT and trains can work in the same dimensions".

On the Eastern Route it's either going to be the same "make shit up and do eleventy design revisions" until the project schedule reaches infinity, or bank the lessons from CT FasTrak and build in a 30-40% cost contingency into the base build for "known"-unknowns...before you build in your standard 30-40% extra cost contingency for "unknown"-unknowns.

Either way it's the same result. The fucking thing never gets built.
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

Either way it's the same result. The fucking thing never gets built.
I'd be interested on your take on how likely they were to have (or buy) enough Diesel-Electric buses in time to do this fast anyway. vs "intensifying" 112/114/116/117 service with variants via the Eastie Haul road & Airport possibly terminating at Silver Line Way or at ground level at South Station / Dot Ave
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

I don't see how any service from South Station was ever going to be 2-4 years away when they aren't actively in the market for new Diesel-Electric vehicles. If you want to point to them not being serious about fast, wouldn't that be it?

Meanwhile, isn't the real fast-and-easy (no build?) trip one that grabbed some conventional-length and diesel-fueled buses to extended the 112 to from Wood Island to Airport+Seaport, or create 114/116/117 "A" variants that took the Eastie Haul Road to the Aiport+Seaport (terminating at Silver Line way...not needing electric...but also not able to be CNG for tunnel-safety)

True. But at least you can do a procurement in 3 years with the T owning the dual-mode design and it being all common-source parts. It is, like you put it, "assembly", not manufacturing. In essence, Neoplan committed honor suicide making the design so the next vendor could profit on their design.

But the busway build next to an active ROW is still so involved that I have my doubts they could ever do this before the order-after-next, nevermind the next order. Design, EIS, permitting, property acquisition, abutter mitigation...that's 10 years at minimum if it were funded tomorrow, if CT FasTrak on a ROW with very similar characteristics is any indicator. And they not only can't fund it with their current financial situation, but they have no means of making a reliable estimate of how much it'll cost. The studies will take 5 years to flesh that out, and the CT FasTrak damage bill will be climbing all that time.


Keep in mind, this is almost a straight rehash of the Urban Ring Phase II busway...which was killed before any portion of it proceeded to engineering study. That was realistically a build that BEFORE it was killed wouldn't have gotten underway with shovels in ground on the first small discrete sections of busway until 2020, and take many years of all-out assault and many billions to string into a contiguous network. And now we've lost over half a decade on that schedule. The UR was such an enormous study job unto itself that it was preceded by an entire street-running only express Phase I of express buses before the first stretch of dedicated busway ever opened. And they bailed on it all.

Simply cherry-picking one-half of one Ring quadrant today with 4 instead of 11 full-build BRT stations does not speed up the build by the orders of magnitude you'd think. It requires making up 5 years of lost progress on the UR design all the same. Only instead of getting the full might of study and engineering resources doing an all-out assault for the entire Lechmere-Airport quadrant's design, it's a scaled back and cash-poor fraction of the manpower and study resources that has to fight for drips and dribbles of funding to incrementally advance. Meaning individual steps are going to take a lot longer to do with reduced manpower and require lots of pauses while they seek more funding. The shorter length and not having to design the Mystic crossing, Everett station(s), and Orange/Green transfers doesn't necessarily speed it up when you've got the same busway ROW constraints to solve for as the UR design that would've had an all-out resources assault and easily 3x the personnel and funding working on those same issues in one blast. I doubt the design timetable for a one-eighth Ring Chelsea busway is going to be much different than what it would've been for a one-fourth Ring Chelsea busway given the resource disparity and the lost time that makes the original UR scoping more or less a do-over here.

And there's no UR Phase I equivalent plan to bridge the gap with express street buses here. What does that suggest about its odds and commitment? Very poor before 2025. Majority chance it'll never happen. Without a stopgap, Chelsea's transit problems fester and boil for another open-ended dozen years all the same even if the Transitway gets a badly needed infusion of new equipment by 2017.



As for plain diesels...yeah, that would be a great idea. Unfortunately they're also way short on 60-footers in general with only 69 of them in the fleet and not nearly enough to go around on the crush-load downtown routes. The financial death blow to Neoplan was actually them canceling the remainder of their CNG articulateds order in '04. They ordered another 25 regular-diesel articulateds in 2010 from New Flyer, but that was only a supplemental to approximate what the original Neoplan fleet should've been had they not canceled the order. Everything new they've bought in the last 10 years has just been rolling replacements for the remaining high-floor buses. They haven't really done any fleet expansion since the original 60-footer order, and right now they are sending the 60-footers and CNG buses out for midlife overhaul. They're halfway through their lifespans and will themselves have to be have a programmed replacement by FY2020-2022.

So...where can they find the bodies to loop from Chelsea streets to SL Way? Not with the 60-footers. Definitely not when 44 of them are CNG and banned from riding through the Ted. And how many can the rest of the fleet spare with a decade of completely flat fleet numbers? Probably not enough to put a meaningful dent.


They've kept up on rehab and programmed replacements better with the bus fleet than the rail fleet, but where's the money to expand service? It hasn't been there since the Silver Line opened, and it's not there in the Transportation Bill the Legislature slashed way back when so much of the vehicle money has to get chewed up by the dire Orange and Red Line situations. It wouldn't take much money to add vehicles to serve express buses as a Chelsea Phase I or to substantially increase local bus frequencies...but they have no apparent will to do that. The fleet size is treading water. They're cutting bus service of late--disproportionately on the expresses--not expanding. And bailing in total on the CT4-CT11 rollout that was supposed to be Urban Ring Phase I and letting CT1-CT3 rot into obscurity signals utter indifference to addressing high-capacity expresses on the ops side.

They want to chase shiny things and build monuments, and to not be hard-bound to follow through on them. The complete and total absence of any easy ops-based solutions in easy reach, absence of any effort to bridge the gap before their fantasy builds, and a decade of keeping their bus capacity completely flat signals a lot about their intent. Signals a lot before you even start fingering them for other similar commitments they backed out of. I'm not convinced this is real until it's got supporting evidence of commitment. There is very very little of that to go around. Even the Key Routes project isn't so much of a capacity enhancer as it is warding off more route performance decay on routes that are already suffering from overcongestion. The signs of any will to do a real capacity and service scale-up are lacking. The only reason the Silver Line is getting much attention of late has been almost entirely the BCEC swinging the big stick, and even that has gone almost entirely without comment from the MBTA itself.
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

Who exactly is standing in the way of better operations? What is needed for reform of this terrible approach?
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

Who exactly is standing in the way of better operations? What is needed for reform of this terrible approach?

Politics. External and internal.

This is not an agency well-motivated by unsexy things like schedule efficiency/frequency/flexibility or state-of-repair. And neither are the local pols who pull their strings. Look at how much money gets wasted on station aesthetics, the suburbs and all the votes in the suburbs, and big monument-building proposals only loosely bound to a build commitment. It's why we have a half-finished Silver Line that doesn't do what it advertised and has half as many vehicles as it needs to function. There's no glory in ops. There's plenty of glory in World Trade Center station, glossy BRT PowerPoints, South Coast Rail Task Force-like fiefdoms, and buying overcustomized unicorn vehicles that take 3 sets of design consultants and a naive low bidder with a death wish. It's the state of politics writ-large in a nutshell. They don't serve the public, they serve their well-connected masters.

Until the root causes of that get addressed, we're not going to see sustained elbow grease put into ops things that really matter. Even the ones that are easy and dead-obvious to implement. We will see a lot more doodling like this Chelsea busway with suspicious lack of strings attached or empirical evidence of binding commitment.
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

I don't ride the line regularly for work or anything, but I feel like they could simply boost capacity at the 3 waterfront locations by just adding a bus that does the SS to Silver line way route continuously. It's a quick loop and the supposed beauty of BRT of LRT is that you can run them right up the others ass in the station. This way anyone going no further than silver line way can get on a bus every 2 minutes.
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

I don't ride the line regularly for work or anything, but I feel like they could simply boost capacity at the 3 waterfront locations by just adding a bus that does the SS to Silver line way route continuously. It's a quick loop and the supposed beauty of BRT of LRT is that you can run them right up the others ass in the station. This way anyone going no further than silver line way can get on a bus every 2 minutes.

This already exists, right? The Silver Line "Shuttle"
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

This strikes me as something that needs a cultural change, and something I was hoping Davey could initiate from the top of the agency at least.

Not to be impatient, but is he really getting anywhere?
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

As for plain diesels...yeah, that would be a great idea. Unfortunately they're also way short on 60-footers in general with only 69 of them in the fleet and not nearly enough to go around on the crush-load downtown routes. The financial death blow to Neoplan was actually them canceling the remainder of their CNG articulateds order in '04. They ordered another 25 regular-diesel articulateds in 2010 from New Flyer, but that was only a supplemental to approximate what the original Neoplan fleet should've been had they not canceled the order. Everything new they've bought in the last 10 years has just been rolling replacements for the remaining high-floor buses. They haven't really done any fleet expansion since the original 60-footer order, and right now they are sending the 60-footers and CNG buses out for midlife overhaul. They're halfway through their lifespans and will themselves have to be have a programmed replacement by FY2020-2022.

So...where can they find the bodies to loop from Chelsea streets to SL Way? Not with the 60-footers. Definitely not when 44 of them are CNG and banned from riding through the Ted. And how many can the rest of the fleet spare with a decade of completely flat fleet numbers? Probably not enough to put a meaningful dent.


.

Neoplan was only contracted to build 44 CNG artics and the 32 dual-modes.
The order with Neoplan that was cut short was for conventional diesel low-floor buses, not CNG artics. The MBTA ordered 175 from them for delivery in 2004/2005 and then picked up an option to buy 85 more for a total of 260. But after Neoplan delivered 193 of them (buses #0401-0593) they ended production. Neoplan was based in Lamar Colorado. When reports were circulating that they were in financial trouble, Neoplan management told the local newpaper that was not true. When it became public that they were indeed shutting down, Neoplan told the local paper it was because the MBTA cancelled the diesel order. However, in public documents that were available at an MBTA Board of Director's meeting back in 2005, it was clear that Neoplan came to the MBTA and told the MBTA that they would not be able to finish the order, not the other way around. The MBTA also had to use surety bond money from the Neoplan contract to pay Skoda to finish the last of the dual-mode buses. Neoplan had withheld payments to Skoda, and Skoda didn't deliver the propulsion equipment to complete the last of the dual-modes until the MBTA directly provided the payment to Skoda.

CNG buses are not banned from the Ted Williams tunnel. MBTA route 171, although it only operates two trips a day, uses CNG buses from Cabot and runs through the Ted. CNG is banned as a commodity to be carried but not a fuel in the tunnel. CNG buses are banned from operating anywhere under trolleybus wire, and could not operate in the transitway tunnel. A lot of people still think that the dual-modes are CNG/electric, but they are in fact diesel-electric and were always planned to be from the start. The MBTA dual-modes are not however hybrids, as they do not have batteries to store energy generated by braking and do not have a diesel engine that operates at constant speeds. They work more like a diesel-electric locomotive, in that they have a diesel-engine, that powers a generator, which supplies power to the electric motors. The electric propulsion system can get power either from the diesel/generator set up or directly from the overhead wires. The next generation of buses for the transitway will most likely be based off of hybrid articulated bus designs being built by New Flyer/NABI (New Flyer bought NABI this year) or NovaBus. While it is true that the MBTA could brush-off their 10+ year old dual-mode specs, it should be noted that Neoplan was the only firm to bid on the MBTA order back in 2001-2002. The MBTA is far more likely to get a response by working with the big two manufactures to modify their existing designs. There is a third big manufactuer of North American transit buses (Gillig) but they do not build artics. Gillig is working with the Dayton Ohio transit authority to build a 40-foot dual-mode as a possible replacement for Dayton's existing trolley bus fleet.
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

Wont this confuse people?

SL1 goes to the airport
SL3 goes to the airport t station
 
Re: Silver Line to Chelsea (Study Meeting)

Wont this confuse people?

SL1 goes to the airport
SL3 goes to the airport t station
Both the current and the new system map show the Airport Terminals and Airport Station as clearly defined entities, and if someone does get confused and gets off at Airport Station, the Massport shuttles are still free, aren't they? I'm not sure if it will be a big issue..
 

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