The St Regis Residences (former Whiskey Priest site) | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

[JANAM]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

It's called progress and Boston is a much better city for it! I remember what the city was like 50 years ago and it was a dump, a wreak of a place, compared to today's Boston! You guys sound like Whiskey Priest was taken by eminent domain by greedy damn developers and the city! Got a complaint about losing WP, talk to the owners of the property. They're the ones who sold out and probably to the highest bidder! It happens.

The owners are the ones developing this!

 

[atlantaden]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Well, there ya go! Will be interesting to see the owners will include WP as part of the retail space and if so, will the new WP retain it's present 'panache' and pricing.

 

[mvulch]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

There is still a relative paucity of retail in the Seaport and it has the population density of Carlisle. It is going to take time for the place to become "real." Sorry for that. Do you have any ideas for how to change that?

Civic buildings, green space, perhaps not having close to 1/3 of the entire Seaport zoned strictly for marine industrial space. I understand it's not an overnight project. I just don't see many initiatives.

I think this proves another point though, which is that these types of restaurants are great for corporate card holders, but terrible for the neighborhood residents. Park Plaza is surrounded by Back Bay, Bay Village and the South End, and yet no one goes there besides Liberty Mutual employees or tourists staying in a nearby hotel. If the Seaport continues to attract these types of restaurants, it will suffer the same fate as Park Plaza.

Can't echo this enough.

 

[KentXie]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

The average Seaport restaurant patron seems to be more and more likened to a rich guy from the Jersey shore. Ocean Prime, Strega, and Del Frisco's all have the same types of people roaming around. There is no need for 3 top tier steakhouses within 1 mile of each other (4 I guess with Morton's as well). Empire on a weekend night is almost entirely rich foreigners. Pair this with news that Big Night Entertainment wants to make a 3-story, 8 million dollar restaurant/club (link) and it just seems like Seaport Boulevard will become a douche consortium. Fort Point is really the only saving grace of the entire area.

How about the Park Plaza area? Smith & Wollensky, Strip, Grill 23, Flemming, and Davio's. There is probably a street corner where you can see them all without moving your feet. Cast the net out "within 1 mile" and you easily hit a dozen or more steakhouses. And that's just steakhouses, don't get started on every other expensive restaurant and bar.

What does that say about the level of douchebaggery throughout Boston?I think nothing. I think those are kind of restaurants you find mixed in with the big office buildings of any major CBD in the world. Remind me again what kind of buildings are actually complete and occupied in the Seaport?

The point, which West speaks to very well in the post above, is that these new buildings in the Seaport are going to pull high-rent paying tenants for as long as they can get away with it. Nobody is going to leave money on the table just because it comes out of the pocket of a douche. Would you?

There is still a relative paucity of retail in the Seaport and it has the population density of Carlisle. It is going to take time for the place to become "real." Sorry for that. Do you have any ideas for how to change that?

I'm sorry but what exactly is wrong with corporate office workers, wealthy employees, and foreigners? The last few posts referring to these people as "douche" and "douchebaggery" reeks of "class xenophobia." These customers are pumping money to the local economy and can even be said to be one of the driving force of the developments in the seaport. If you are upset that Whiskey Priest and/or other crusty-restaurants are being replaced, fine that's understandable, but to blame it on the new demographic coming into the neighborhood sounds like a bunch of old men whining about how they don't want things to change, especially when the seaport lacked any semblance of a long-standing culture and/or neighborhood. When Do-Re-Mi, closed down in Allston, to be replaced by new housing, I was upset, but you move on and find a new place to hang out at.

 

[FenwayResident]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

If you are upset that Whiskey Priest and/or other crusty-restaurants are being replaced, fine that's understandable, but to blame it on the new demographic coming into the neighborhood sounds like a bunch of old men whining about how they don't want things to change, especially when the seaport lacked any semblance of a long-standing culture and/or neighborhood. When Do-Re-Mi, closed down in Allston, to be replaced by new housing, I was upset, but you move on and find a new place to hang out at.

This feels like a straw man. I don't think anyone is saying that the Seaport shouldn't be developed. Nor is anyone saying that they don't want things to change. The argument is that the Seaport (and Park Plaza) does not have a good mix of retail; it is catered towards one or two demographics only. Fancy restaurants and nightclubs are great but they shouldn't make up an entire neighborhood.

IMO, we would ideally see a mix of price points and services in the Seaport's new retail. However it has been dominated by high end restaurants and bars. People are lamenting the loss of one of the few non-high-end options available in the neighborhood.

 

[mvulch]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

I'm sorry but what exactly is wrong with corporate office workers, wealthy employees, and foreigners? The last few posts referring to these people as "douche" and "douchebaggery" reeks of "class xenophobia." These customers are pumping money to the local economy and can even be said to be one of the driving force of the developments in the seaport. If you are upset that Whiskey Priest and/or other crusty-restaurants are being replaced, fine that's understandable, but to blame it on the new demographic coming into the neighborhood sounds like a bunch of old men whining about how they don't want things to change, especially when the seaport lacked any semblance of a long-standing culture and/or neighborhood. When Do-Re-Mi, closed down in Allston, to be replaced by new housing, I was upset, but you move on and find a new place to hang out at.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with corporate and foreign investment in our city. The problems and gripes I have relate to every new building being a glass box and looking like a Dallas office park. When this is coupled with only luxury branded restaurants and nightclubs, there's little to no neighborhood aspect to be seen.

I have no attachment to Whiskey Priest and it's picturesque trash compactor out front, for the record.

 

[whighlander]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

The owners are the ones developing this!

Can we have a small cheer for this plan!

The key that makes this development in this area of the city unusual -- is that its a long-time owner who is developing their own site -- its not a Mega Developer proposing something that can be relocated to another site in a Mega Development

Cronin is taking a chance at building quality; building tall and dense on a relatively small footprint; building cheek-by-jowl with the next building -- these are all features that this forum claims to want

Most everyone is posting as if they worked inside the Kremlin during the time that Papa Joe kept the light on for you

Just like Anthony of Pier 4 -- The Cronin group invested when the rest of the Seaport / Innovation District was mostly abandoned rail yard, some really cheap parking and some old warehouses

Now they are reaping their return -- but not by selling to some out-of-town or out-of-country fat-cat, fast-buck developer -- they are improving their own property

Ultimately, what makes a neighborhood successful are having people who are willing to commit to improving the properties that they own -- this is just as true with commercial developments as it is with single family homes in the suburbs

 

[chumbolly]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

This discussion reminds me of Jane Jacobs' arguments against wholesale urban renewal. A city needs a mix of old buildings, because it needs Class B and C space so businesses that can only afford cheap leases can survive. We cheer new buildings that invest in design, but surely none of them are going to lease out at Class B or C rates. The seaport is a bit of a unique case, in that the new buildings are largely only replacing parking lots, but the land is so valuable that the $18 dollar cocktails and $45 steaks are priced in.

I console myself by hoping that one day someone cures cancer, and the life science and pharma buildings will go the way of the nut and candy factories, and Kendall and the Seaport will revert back to being real shitholes filled with good-for-nothing artists and good bars that no out-of-towner on an expense account would dare step foot in.

 

[whighlander]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

This discussion reminds me of Jane Jacobs' arguments against wholesale urban renewal. A city needs a mix of old buildings, because it needs Class B and C space so businesses that can only afford cheap leases can survive. We cheer new buildings that invest in design, but surely none of them are going to lease out at Class B or C rates. The seaport is a bit of a unique case, in that the new buildings are largely only replacing parking lots, but the land is so valuable that the $18 dollar cocktails and $45 steaks are priced in.

I console myself by hoping that one day someone cures cancer, and the life science and pharma buildings will go the way of the nut and candy factories, and Kendall and the Seaport will revert back to being real shitholes filled with good-for-nothing artists and good bars that no out-of-towner on an expense account would dare step foot in.

No -- they just become the birthing and nursery rooms for the new age of Nanotechnology, the coming of "science-fiction-class" robotics, curing of Alzheimer's and all the other wonders of the future

 

[shawn]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

What's that city in the background there? It looks like Atlanta.

Yeah, it's Downtown Atlanta - you can see the the Westin Peachtree Plaza. Lazy!

 

[JANAM]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Yeah, it's Downtown Atlanta - you can see the the Westin Peachtree Plaza. Lazy!

Very lazy, who are the architects for M1 & M2?

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Very lazy, who are the architects for M1 & M2?

CBT, KPF & Reed-Hilderbrand: http://www.scribd.com/doc/275320131/SEAPORT-SQUARE-M1-M2-BCDC-PRESENTATION-AUGUST-18TH-2015

Discussion in the Seaport Square thread: http://www.archboston.org/community/showthread.php?t=1282&page=111

 

[FortPointGuy]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

1. This building looks great!

2. The driving force of douchebaggery in the Seaport is Whiskey Priest and ABG, not steakhouses or Babbo or Empire.

3. 1000s and 1000s of residential units are in the pipeline.

4. The retail is coming and you can thumb through the Seaport Square project threads for evidence of that.

5. It is way too early to knock the Seaport for lack of retail.

6. The neighborhood is/was empty parking lots. Next to downtown. On the water. Does anyone really think they would decide to build brownstones, projects or middle class housing? I sure didn't.

 

[BarbaricManchurian]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

That's fucking hot.

 

[Mongo]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

CBT, KPF & Reed-Hilderbrand: http://www.scribd.com/doc/275320131/SEAPORT-SQUARE-M1-M2-BCDC-PRESENTATION-AUGUST-18TH-2015

Discussion in the Seaport Square thread: http://www.archboston.org/community/showthread.php?t=1282&page=111

Going through the M1 and M2 presentation again, it's interesting to note that in their renders they assumed something was going to be built on the WP site, but not something as large or tall as what is proposed.

 

[KentXie]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

This feels like a straw man. I don't think anyone is saying that the Seaport shouldn't be developed. Nor is anyone saying that they don't want things to change. The argument is that the Seaport (and Park Plaza) does not have a good mix of retail; it is catered towards one or two demographics only. Fancy restaurants and nightclubs are great but they shouldn't make up an entire neighborhood.

IMO, we would ideally see a mix of price points and services in the Seaport's new retail. However it has been dominated by high end restaurants and bars. People are lamenting the loss of one of the few non-high-end options available in the neighborhood.

Understandable and I agree. Unfortunately the local economy, in this case, the Seaport will dictate what will be built here and the current market condition dictates that it will be mainly high end commercial, retail, and residential space. Without intervention or incentives, this is all that will be built. Like many posters have mentioned before developers and owners are not going to settle with non-high end retailers when they know they can charge more and get more with high end retailers. Further fueling this is that as more high-end retailer, residents, and business move in, the more the land value goes up, which means this will continue to attract residents, customers, and business of that wealth bracket into the area. Similar to what I said about the housing problem in Boston, in that building a bunch of luxury housing wouldn't put a dent in the middle to lower class housing market, the same issue stands here where, unless you have developers pro-actively cater to all demographics, they will continue to only serve those at the top.

 

[JumboBuc]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

This is economics 101: the demand curve is downward sloping. When quantity is low and demand outstrips supply, the consumers in the market are those with the highest willingness to pay. You see this in all markets, and in the Seaport for all tenants, be they residential, office, or retail. As quantity grows the market moves along the demand curve, prices fall, and new consumers enter the market. The first retail tenants to move in will always be the flashy expensive places, just as the first consumers to buy any technology will always be the rich. Those with lower willingness to pay come later.

So, if you're worried about the makeup of the Seaport, just give it time. As more lots get filled and more space comes online, lower willingness to pay tenants (office, residential, and retail) will start to move in. You're already seeing this in retail to some degree with Watermark Seaport and the PWC building (Chipotle, CVS, Shake Shack, etc.). The yet-to-come and more-inland Seaport Square residential buildings will surely have cheaper apartments and condos then the early stuff on the water. No doubt that Pier 4 apartment rents will drop once that building finds itself surrounded on all sides. Even in office, I bet PWC and Goodwin Procter are paying less per square foot than Vertex. This will continue. Additionally, as tenants with high willingness to pay are some of the first to move to the Seaport, the places they are moving from become more affordable. Case in point: the Globe is moving into some of the old Goodwin Procter space at Exchange Place. That wouldn't have been possible if not for GP's new building in the Seaport.

 

[FK4]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

This is economics 101: the demand curve is downward sloping. When quantity is low and demand outstrips supply, the consumers in the market are those with the highest willingness to pay. You see this in all markets, and in the Seaport for all tenants, be they residential, office, or retail. As quantity grows the market moves along the demand curve, prices fall, and new consumers enter the market. The first retail tenants to move in will always be the flashy expensive places, just as the first consumers to buy any technology will always be the rich. Those with lower willingness to pay come later.

So, if you're worried about the makeup of the Seaport, just give it time. As more lots get filled and more space comes online, lower willingness to pay tenants (office, residential, and retail) will start to move in. You're already seeing this in retail to some degree with Watermark Seaport and the PWC building (Chipotle, CVS, Shake Shack, etc.). The yet-to-come and more-inland Seaport Square residential buildings will surely have cheaper apartments and condos then the early stuff on the water. No doubt that Pier 4 apartment rents will drop once that building finds itself surrounded on all sides. Even in office, I bet PWC and Goodwin Procter are paying less per square foot than Vertex. This will continue. Additionally, as tenants with high willingness to pay are some of the first to move to the Seaport, the places they are moving from become more affordable. Case in point: the Globe is moving into some of the old Goodwin Procter space at Exchange Place. That wouldn't have been possible if not for GP's new building in the Seaport.

This actually is not entirely true. A major factor that is different in the most recent real estate cycles is that construction projects are increasingly being done by larger and more monolithic corporations and/or larger buildings. This allows companies to absorb losses during economic slumps more robustly than a smaller independent landholder could. During the next correction there may well be a loss of the first generation of flashy restaurants, but in general it is highly unlikely for either very hole-in-the-wall type places or even significantly more affordable places to replace them. That goes for all of the new development areas. Parcels that hold small buildings and are also independently owned are the ones where this sort of thing happens - like the "taxpayer" buildings that we always are clamorous to redevelop. Well, these are the places hat are disappearing, and you are not ever going to see some cheap diner restaurant in the seaport.

Neighborhood diversity is good - it may be unrealistic in the seaport, but that is unfortunate. More importantly, though, is that the type of new development all over the city is very resistant to creating more affordable retail/restaurants, and that is cause for a good deal of concern. Just like corporations upended the traditional view of capitalism, so has corporate development greatly skewed the assumption that the immediate market dictates the type of housing and retail one will find.

 

[KentXie]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

This is economics 101: the demand curve is downward sloping. When quantity is low and demand outstrips supply, the consumers in the market are those with the highest willingness to pay. You see this in all markets, and in the Seaport for all tenants, be they residential, office, or retail. As quantity grows the market moves along the demand curve, prices fall, and new consumers enter the market. The first retail tenants to move in will always be the flashy expensive places, just as the first consumers to buy any technology will always be the rich. Those with lower willingness to pay come later.

So, if you're worried about the makeup of the Seaport, just give it time. As more lots get filled and more space comes online, lower willingness to pay tenants (office, residential, and retail) will start to move in. You're already seeing this in retail to some degree with Watermark Seaport and the PWC building (Chipotle, CVS, Shake Shack, etc.). The yet-to-come and more-inland Seaport Square residential buildings will surely have cheaper apartments and condos then the early stuff on the water. No doubt that Pier 4 apartment rents will drop once that building finds itself surrounded on all sides. Even in office, I bet PWC and Goodwin Procter are paying less per square foot than Vertex. This will continue. Additionally, as tenants with high willingness to pay are some of the first to move to the Seaport, the places they are moving from become more affordable. Case in point: the Globe is moving into some of the old Goodwin Procter space at Exchange Place. That wouldn't have been possible if not for GP's new building in the Seaport.

Oh if real life economics is as simple as Economic 101. I can tell you it's not because what you're assuming in your example is that the demand curve doesn't shift, only the supply curve. However, in the situation that is playing out in the Seaport, the demand curve shifts to the right as well. It's no surprise that the wealthy attract the wealthy and the poor attract the poor. Building high end restaurants mean they will attract the wealthy. The wealthy will move into the area to maximize accessibility and with the influx of wealthy customers, demands for more high end restaurant shifts to the right which attracts more wealthy customers. In short, the natural equilibrium isn't where you will start seeing lower end retail moving in. It's stuck at a point above that.

In addition, your example on Goodwin Procter is somewhat true (the demand for office space remains high as supply continues to be outstripped meaning it's more likely that the price is at the same or even higher than what Goodwin paid for as the lease is now open to negotiate compared to when it was locked down by a contract with GP), but we are focusing on the Seaport. If the price of office space does drop, it drops in Fidi, not the Seaport where everything is sparkling new meaning the price at the Seaport will continue to be high.

 

[JumboBuc]

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

This actually is not entirely true. A major factor that is different in the most recent real estate cycles is that construction projects are increasingly being done by larger and more monolithic corporations and/or larger buildings. This allows companies to absorb losses during economic slumps more robustly than a smaller independent landholder could. During the next correction there may well be a loss of the first generation of flashy restaurants, but in general it is highly unlikely for either very hole-in-the-wall type places or even significantly more affordable places to replace them. That goes for all of the new development areas. Parcels that hold small buildings and are also independently owned are the ones where this sort of thing happens - like the "taxpayer" buildings that we always are clamorous to redevelop. Well, these are the places hat are disappearing, and you are not ever going to see some cheap diner restaurant in the seaport.

Neighborhood diversity is good - it may be unrealistic in the seaport, but that is unfortunate. More importantly, though, is that the type of new development all over the city is very resistant to creating more affordable retail/restaurants, and that is cause for a good deal of concern. Just like corporations upended the traditional view of capitalism, so has corporate development greatly skewed the assumption that the immediate market dictates the type of housing and retail one will find.

The type of housing and retail one will find is dictated by the type of housing and retail that is willing to pay. This doesn't have anything to do with who the developer or the landlord is; it's all strictly demand-side. And as space keeps growing, and especially as buildings with views lose their views to new neighbors with views, those with lower willingness to pay will find room in the market. Does this mean that we'll eventually have dives and holes-in-the-wall in new buildings in the Seaport? Probably not, but we won't have all expense account steakhouses either. And big spenders moving into new development makes it less likely that big spenders will take over old properties and renovate them.

Oh if real life economics is as simple as Economic 101. I can tell you it's not because what you're assuming in your example is that the demand curve doesn't shift, only the supply curve. However, in the situation that is playing out in the Seaport, the demand curve shifts to the right as well. It's no surprise that the wealthy attract the wealthy and the poor attract the poor. Building high end restaurants mean they will attract the wealthy. The wealthy will move into the area to maximize accessibility and with the influx of wealthy customers, demands for more high end restaurant shifts to the right which attracts more wealthy customers. In short, the natural equilibrium isn't where you will start seeing lower end retail moving in. It's stuck at a point above that.

In addition, your example on Goodwin Procter is somewhat true (the demand for office space remains high as supply continues to be outstripped meaning it's more likely that the price is at the same or even higher than what Goodwin paid for as the lease is now open to negotiate compared to when it was locked down by a contract with GP), but we are focusing on the Seaport. If the price of office space does drop, it drops in Fidi, not the Seaport where everything is sparkling new meaning the price at the Seaport will continue to be high.

No, real life is not as simple as Economics 101, but that does not mean it moves in the opposite direction of Economics 101 either. Demand is downward sloping, period. This is true in theory and in practice. Please, go find a situation where it isn't true and then take advantage of that to make yourself infinitely wealthy. Curves don't shift with changes in quantity, the market equilibrium just moves along them. And as you move along the demand curve with increasing quantity, price drops.

It is true that developments create externalities (positive and negative) and the demand curve can shift as perceptions of a good change. But your argument seems to be that the demand curves shifts with each increase in supply to such a degree that prices will never fall. This is unlike any market I've ever heard of, and doesn't conform with reality. As we have previously discussed on this and other threads, much of the demand for the current expensive Seaport restaurants is corporate demand, largely associated with the convention spaces. How is this demand supposed to grow as a result of more retail space getting filled in? And where are all of these richer and richer tenants supposed to come from as more apartments and condos are built? The ink is already starting to spill over the effect that this increased supply is having on prices at the high end. More supply will only exacerbate this, and the market for retail space will behave identically to the market for residential space.

Again, the demand curve is downward sloping.