Crazy Transit Pitches

[Charlie_mta]

The Tobin Bridge is 68 years old. When it is replaced someday, I do hope that a pedestrian/bicycle path is included in the new bridge, as well as space for light rail, or at least separate bus lanes that could be converted to light rail later.

 

[tysmith95]

Create a new heavy rail line that runs along the Fairmount Line for most of its length, crossing over to the South Boston Bypass road for a trip into the Seaport.

 

[cadetcarl]

So it would have exactly zero interchanges with other lines?

 

[coleslaw]

On page 179 of the Go Boston 2030 proposals they mention potentially extending the line into seaport. I think It would make more sense to extend the silverline further into roxbury and through Everett and replace it with light rail.

 

[tysmith95]

On page 179 of the Go Boston 2030 proposals they mention potentially extending the line into seaport. I think It would make more sense to extend the silverline further into roxbury and through Everett and replace it with light rail.

Very interesting on one of the pages they show a possible Fairmount tunnel to the current silver line tunnel, with the tracks continuing into the seaport.

 

[Charlie_mta]

Very interesting on one of the pages they show a possible Fairmount tunnel to the current silver line tunnel, with the tracks continuing into the seaport.

I would convert the Fairmount line to another Red Line, continue north through the Cabot Red Line yard. Then surface over the Turnpike tunnels, then subway into the Silver Line at South Station. Then continue the heavy rail transit to Seaport in the Silverline tunnel.

 

[cbrett]

Maybe I'm overestimating demand on the NEC, but I feel like converting Fairmount to heavy rail ignores the value of having a second ROW into South Station. In a post NSRL world would missing Back Bay be a huge deal for some commuter/Amtrak trains?

 

[coleslaw]

How difficult would it be to connect the fairmount line to the orange line tunnel? bringing a line to (back to) Everett would be good.

 

[bakgwailo]

Since we are on Crazy Transit pitches, why not a cut and cover under the Fairmont Line/ROW all the way from Hyde Park to South Station, until the yard where the subway can go its merry way and the above ground ROW stays to South Station - then its the best of both worlds, real Subway service below ground, and keeps the actual rail road intact above. Should be a super simple cut and cover, too. I also remember F-Line writing that it would also be difficult to wholesale convert the ROW to rapid transit/subway as it is still used for freight.

 

[George_Apley]

Ari's getting into the Crazy Transit Pitch game. Put this on his blog last week but now it's been picked up by Commonwealth Mag

Blue to Kendall

From the Red/Blue Connector thread:

[...]
Ari posted some articles on the Red-Blue connector recently, extending it to Kendall Square. I would like to hear some thoughts on:

1. Where those proposed extensions of the Blue Line from Kendall would go and how a Grand Junction extension would work out.
2. The usefulness of an extension across the river versus a riverbank extension.

Because extending it to Kendall seems fine but hampers the potential riverbank extension which I have been fond of for quite a while.

For one, Ari's suggestion would obviously preclude other uses of Grand Junction (the biggest idea bopped around here being GLX-Urban Ring leg from Lechmere to BU), which puts a sock in the F-Line/Davem Master Green Line Reconfiguration Plan.

Where would it go? Pick north, south or both. Options:

• Split north on GJ, jump over GLX and continue to Sullivan, Assembly, and Casino... then? Not sure. Negative is a U-shaped Blue Line from north to downtown to north.
• Split north on GJ and assume the path of one of the GLX branches (probably the northern branch to Mystic Valley).
• Split south on GJ and run to BU, "West Station" and through Beacon Yards development. From there could have an alternate route to Harvard from the west, though may be too redundant with Red.
• OR somehow figure out how to go northwest from Beacon Yards to Arsenal Street and run Blue to Watertown Square (subway or elevated?).

Second, the utility of a cross-river extension to Kendall versus the riverbank extension to Kenmore is quite different. Ari explains pretty clearly why a Kendall connection would primarily serve to help Red crush loads. The Riverbank option would more serve to help Green crush loads and be more of an express option from downtown to Kenmore.

Options for Blue out of Kenmore versus Kendall are actually rather similar. From Kenmore any northern option (towards Somerville) is ruled out, but the western Allston options are probably still in play–though they'd require some tricky navigation around/under the Pike and the Worcester Line. The other potential option out of Kenmore would be to take over the D-line, which would also have the deleterious effect of trashing the Green-as-Urban-Ring plan kicked around here for years.

Ari's thinking is certainly an interesting concept for discussion compared to the horses we've beaten to death here since 2012.

 

[JumboBuc]

Ari's getting into the Crazy Transit Pitch game. Put this on his blog last week but now it's been picked up by Commonwealth Mag

Blue to Kendall

It's been picked up in Commonwealth Mag by Ari.

Crazy Transit Pitch territory for sure. Ari's plan calls for Blue-to-Kendall to be fully integrated into the Volpe site to the extent that the extension must be completely engineered before MIT finishes designing any of its Volpe buildings. That's not going to happen.

I love Ari's general plan for a cut-and-cover Red-Blue connector, but this Kendall connection strikes me as pretty silly. That's a lot of work and a lot of uncertainty to basically duplicate the Red across one station.

Sure, build Red-Blue and leave space for either a future Riverbank extension or a future Cambridge extension, but tying it into the Volpe development now strikes me as a total non-starter.

EDIT: I can imagine MIT leaving a possible ROW through the site (think of how the Silver cuts through Parcel M in the Seaport) but no way they leave space for an entire yard. An underground yard at Ebersol Field, which Ari also suggests, does seem feasible.

 

[George_Apley]

Since we are on Crazy Transit pitches, why not a cut and cover under the Fairmont Line/ROW all the way from Hyde Park to South Station, until the yard where the subway can go its merry way and the above ground ROW stays to South Station - then its the best of both worlds, real Subway service below ground, and keeps the actual rail road intact above. Should be a super simple cut and cover, too. I also remember F-Line writing that it would also be difficult to wholesale convert the ROW to rapid transit/subway as it is still used for freight.

Yeah, Fairmount is too valuable for freight to convert to true rapid transit. Given how useful the DMU/EMU options for Fairmount will likely be, the costs of duplicating the ROW underground would probably be prohibitive.

 

[George_Apley]

It's been picked up in Commonwealth Mag by Ari.

Hah yup. It's the same post he put on his blog.

Crazy Transit Pitch territory for sure. Ari's plan calls for Blue-to-Kendall to be fully integrated into the Volpe site to the extent that the extension must be completely engineered before MIT finishes designing any of its Volpe buildings. That's not going to happen.

I love Ari's general plan for a cut-and-cover Red-Blue connector, but this Kendall connection strikes me as pretty silly. That's a lot of work and a lot of uncertainty to basically duplicate the Red across one station.

Sure, build Red-Blue and leave space for either a future Riverbank extension or a future Cambridge extension, but tying it into the Volpe development now strikes me as a total non-starter.

EDIT: I can imagine MIT leaving a possible ROW through the site (think of how the Silver cuts through Parcel M in the Seaport) but no way they leave space for an entire yard. An underground yard at Ebersol Field, which Ari also suggests, does seem feasible.

Agreed so far as it being a nonstarter to try to shoehorn this into Volpe site planning which is already well underway. Some sort of underground ROW reservation by MIT would be more likely, especially if they want to future-proof their neighborhood as Kendall station and the Red Line is increasingly squashed by over-capacity.

I do value him getting any conversation of meaningful transit expansion (even just a 1-stop cross-river redundancy) coverage in local press. If we're going to think big for the future, transit expansion and planning needs to be a more natural "go to" conversation. Simply discussing getting a tunnel across the Charles will move the conversation in the right direction.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

Just going one stop over the river doesn't really help all that much but it's a first step. If you want to extend the BL west then do it all the way out to Watertown, through Allston, which is a much better terminal and a corridor with existing demand but plenty of space for urban growth. It's also a better idea than using the GJ as a CR shuttle from West Station to North Station. The next logical step is to extend the BL past Watertown to Waltham but all the development over the old Watertown Branch RR will make that more expensive.

 

[coleslaw]

Just going one stop over the river doesn't really help all that much but it's a first step. If you want to extend the BL west then do it all the way out to Watertown, through Allston, which is a much better terminal and a corridor with existing demand but plenty of space for urban growth. It's also a better idea than using the GJ as a CR shuttle from West Station to North Station. The next logical step is to extend the BL past Watertown to Waltham but all the development over the old Watertown Branch RR will make that more expensive.

This is exactly what I think the long term blue line extension should be. Bringing to waltham may be expensive but it has 60,000 people with a large immigrant population and is inside 128. Watertown has a higher density, which is around that of JP.

 

[George_Apley]

^ But easier and cheaper to electrify Fitchburg and run EMUs @ 18min headways between 128 and North Station through Waltham, Belmont, and Cambridge.

I mean, in an ideal world, "why not both?", but I'd imagine that once the low-hanging fruit of rapid-transit-ish service on the Fitchburg happens there won't be any political will to build a new transit line past Watertown Square. Unless Waltham really explodes.

 

[whittle]

If you're trying to get the BL to Allston with this plan wouldn't you run into issues with getting the BL line across Main St? The building just south of Main St straddles GJR thus preventing elevating the line and the RL is just below the street, so the only option would be to tear down the building or dig a tunnel below the red line. (though this is crazy pitches and I've definitely seen bigger obstacles)

Though I do like the idea of the long term goal for the BL being Waltham.

 

[George_Apley]

If you're trying to get the BL to Allston with this plan wouldn't you run into issues with getting the BL line across Main St? The building just south of Main St straddles GJR thus preventing elevating the line and the RL is just below the street, so the only option would be to tear down the building or dig a tunnel below the red line. (though this is crazy pitches and I've definitely seen bigger obstacles)

Though I do like the idea of the long term goal for the BL being Waltham.

You'd have to tunnel and underpin Red, yeah. Probably portal up after Mass Ave rather than try to pull up quickly into an elevated crossing. If you want a Mass Ave station add another subway station to your costs.

Other question is how to get through Allston once you're north or west of Beacon Yards redev. Right now Beacon Yards is *relatively* choose your own adventure until redevelopment actually happens and locks in ROW. Transit would *probably* hug the eastern side of the plot where the CSX loop is. Once you get towards Genzyme and Western Ave it gets tricky. Do you subway under Western Ave to SFR & Arsenal? Do you elevate? Do you try to get under the Harvard fields and go under SFR? Tough choices.

 

[coleslaw]

If you want to go really crazy you could criss cross the river with bridges/ tunnels to serve some areas lacking rail in the inner ring something like a stop at MGH, across the river stop at mass ave, stop at cambridgeport, across the river, 2-3 stops in lower alston, across again, stop at arsenal , stop at watertown center stop, across again, stop at nonantum, across the river, stop at bleachery, end line in waltham center. Really would be the blue line.

 

[whittle]

Other question is how to get through Allston once you're north or west of Beacon Yards redev. Right now Beacon Yards is *relatively* choose your own adventure until redevelopment actually happens and locks in ROW. Transit would *probably* hug the eastern side of the plot where the CSX loop is. Once you get towards Genzyme and Western Ave it gets tricky. Do you subway under Western Ave to SFR & Arsenal? Do you elevate? Do you try to get under the Harvard fields and go under SFR? Tough choices.

I was assuming you'd go between the pike and CR to Boston Landing (presumably with stops at West Station, Cambridge St, and Boston Landing (possibly outright replacing the CR station there since you'd need to rework the station a bit to get 4 tracks under Everett St). Probably the easiest way to get through Allston, but from there you'd probably need either a TBM or a pretty crazy flyover to get to Watertown.