Widett Circle Development, so it begins.

F line
As I said in reply to HBHi...we're beyond speculation already. Overt action was initiated in the hearing and documented in the minutes to make a speculative statement about upholding the tax break when there was zero jurisdictional, statutory, or motivational reason to say boo about that. Say boo at this time, or say boo by them at all. No, it is not the final word by a longshot on the fate of the property. It's probably not much more than a first word with the degree to which this is going to get picked apart...such that I can't see a scenario where this bang-bang sale actually goes down by Friday as planned.

But yes, it is a already a major problem that such action was initiated by the BDPA to obfuscate the tax code implications, and to aid the developer's unwillingness to name any potential land use. How do we accurately measure land value and potential return into the City's tax coffers if first action is to -=widen=-...not close or leave-be...the loophole of what land usage the BDPA would wholeheartedly support transferring the Food Processing tax break towards? They're a planning and development agency. It's their fucking jobs to solicit plans for development, not encourage greater end-runs for avoiding doing so and leave it to some other agency to clean up if they overstepped their bounds. And since the who's-who involved here includes none other than...yep, Suffolk, of Mr. Fish fame and all the attempted Boston 2024 end-runs around this very site...it's now fully fair game to critique who they're making end-runs on behalf of vs. who they won't (which the Twitter thread gets into).

It's unpleasant discussion...I get that. But it's unpleasant because we're dealing with it YET AGAIN like fucking Groundhog Day with this outfit. And it's unpleasant because we'd love to be talking problem-solving nuts-and-bolts about the Widett site itself, but here they are without any provocation putting their hands on the scale on behalf of yet another set of connected insiders. Just like that...the foul-smelling inside ball becomes the story, not the development plan (which of course there is none here).

Not saying you are wrong at all but why are you so worked up about this project? You want this for a N-S rail connection?
 
Thats a great question, is there some way the ROW can be protected? If the MBTA doesnt own the land what will their options be "when" the time comes?
 
Currently, there's no direct threat to any existing MBTA property or ROW, and I don't foresee a threat to the ROW. There is some threat to F-Lines idea regarding both additional critically needed CR storage space and a huge bus maintenance and storage facility being constructed under a theoretical deck on the property in this sale, if I'm not mistaken. I think the major concern here is how easily this ridiculously low sale is being made possible by friends and with blatant handshakes, winks, and nods, and the numerous red flags in the funding and investment involved with this sale.

The future of the T property, however is a little concerning.

The scope of the final plan could hinge on whether Keravouri can add neighboring sites owned by the City of Boston and state agencies.

And if the T can't convince them otherwise, they won't have political backing to keep their property, as virtually every politician involved with this property has already alluded to it being "ripe for redevelopment."

I'd encourage F-Lines previous spiel on these properties, although his 'legend' has been lost from Tinypic.

A Question and Conundrum: what do we truly have to work with here in the real world?

Well, for starters: a very heterogeneous district of properties. So if "Master Developers" are as much a nonstarter now as it was before, Step 1 should be junking the monolithic sales pitch and examining what this space's component parts are.

I zeroed in on 5 different areas with 5 different affinities. Green are the ones that a sensible plan can get built without undue cost, without undue burden. Yellow is doable but fraught with anxiety if displaced facilities get displaced to the wrong places at the wrong capacities. Red is a "HELL NO!" and repeating the same mistakes that impaled
 
I'm not sure where these conspiracies about the low sale value are coming from as this is a sale from one private entity to another. Its low in sale price because the site has a ton of issues- its next to a highway, its next to MBTA and amtrak lines, its next to the haul road, its cut off from everything else. This isnt Gilette property along Fort Point we're talking about
 
And it's unpleasant because we'd love to be talking problem-solving nuts-and-bolts about the Widett site itself,
I think most of us would love to talk about Widett. you are the one derailing the thread with what you perceive is the impact the BPDA has had on this process.
lets talk nuts and bolts. what would you want to see here? for development? for the T facilities?
 
Thats a great question, is there some way the ROW can be protected? If the MBTA doesnt own the land what will their options be "when" the time comes?

Short of topmost-down state action on eminent domaining, it's out of the T's hands. MassDOT was always in that looking to either be the winning transactional bid, or to go in brokered with somebody else for the ground-level easement. That's why the Layover Alternatives analysis was so broad...because they couldn't force-feed any situation where they were guaranteed the upper hand.

Beacon Park is down to a pathetic 8 trainsets or storage now with the shit-sandwich West Station design inverting the layover and station placement to pointless isolation and cost bloating. That's not going to satisfy anything, and since Harvard (duly acknowledged in the FCMB presentation) is itching for a total zero-out the nonsensically inverted West v. yard placement looks like it's pre-conditioned to guarantee that outcome in the end. The only property they outright control is Readville, which can be zoned straight out to the Neponset riverbank for storage if need be. That's an ops-ugly setup as they'd be deadheading far too many sets all day long 8 miles from SS at considerable aggregate non-revenue cost chew. But in the barest technical sense, it can do the job if all other sites fail. That does, however, lead to a conundrum of where you site all the southside car maintenance and shops and Maintenance of Way facilities if you have to keep that land as emergency fallback for storage because other "partners" can't resist turf-warring everything beyond the edge of their own noses. You'd have to build shops out in the suburbs, which is larding on more inefficiency. Spot-on ideal would be to have Readville take up all the shop space, but downtown stone's-throw from SS taking up all the straight-storage-no-filler space. And then if/when NSRL is build *somewhat* (but not totally) reducing the amount of terminal storage required, reapportion some of that space for bus yard expansion.

Because this developer has no idea what--if anything--will get built there, technically nothing has changed with the T's prospects. They even wholly expected that the BDPA was going to be their worst enemy on the turf warrage, because that's exactly how it went when City & B24 shut MassDOT out of the Widett Olympics site planning but made demands that there was going to be some transit station next to their underground parking garage. Since infrastructure is the #1 most oft-cited problem here with getting anything built, getting anything gridded to the street, and getting anything flood-proofed in the 'bowl', the state agency tasked with "infrastructure" may ultimately still be the only linchpin that can get something built. Because if they float a ground-level storage easement with pumping stations for the flood risk--things a private developer would have no interest in doing as prereqs for reaching the street level--there's a logistical means and financial means for making dense development happen. Arguably the Olympics site there wouldn't have collapsed so suddenly and completely had the turf-warring City institutions involved invited MassDOT in from Day 1 to present the potential mutually-serving infrastructure solves for all the decking prereqs that scared away any/all developers. You would think it would be self-evident by now that the infrastructure gurus should be read in up-front for the solution brainstorming to blunt that overwhelming potential for another meltdown, but I guess in bizzaro Boston insider-world logic people who learn from their mistakes are born quitters.

So the main questions are:
  • How much time are we going to waste before Captain Obvious realizes "Egad...I have to build up/down access here AND mitigate floods before I can erect anything more lucrative than another warehouse here?" and calls the MassDOT Bat Phone. 10 years as an unused/underused moonscape? 20? 30 and lawsuits galore that the endless inactivity is hurting the city?
  • Given that the buyer is going to have to stare down the exact same infrastructure challenges that scared away each and every other potential buyer like clockwork, and said buyer refuses to speculate what will actually be built here...is there really a plan to overcome those obstacles? And if so, who is going to get read in on a partnership to help with that aspect given that lack of "gurus" on the infrastructure side were the dealbreakers each and every previous time? Or is the whole point in being super-vague up-front simply because this is an intentional land-parking deal, no more no less.
  • The BDPA's one job in life is to solicit development plans. Lack of concrete-enough development plans that treat the infrastructure challenges has upended each and every prior attempt at doing something with this property. For often incredulous reasons, like B24 getting umpteen rows deep in renders but forgetting someone had to build a deck to interface with the street...then having no answer except "uh, uh...I guess the developer handles that" while all interested developers went screaming for the hills. So our learned behavior from those repeat failures is: preemptive and unprovoked intervention--which they DID NOT have to do--in the financial favor of the developer who explicitly comes forward eschewing a development plan???
  • This isn't the only site that now, going forward, has to take into account things like sea level rise mitigation (Seaport???) and transportation infrastructure (hundreds of acres of unbuilt air rights???) as first prereqs before there's possibility of getting anything done. The highest-leverage remaining mega dev slabs in the city have escalating-difficulty challenges like that, because we've simply blown through enough of the easy parcels that the bigger-challenge ones are the highest-leverage left. Widett, unfortunately, has become a litmus test for "STOP PUNCHING YOURSELF!" because of the ineptitude at roping in any early infrastructure planning upending so many previous attempts in such predictable fashion. Making adjustments there is a barometer of our ability to adapt development to new challenges. Can we hope to build anything flood-mitigated in any sea level rise risk area if we don't get a lot more on the ball about this? How is early-intervention obfuscation with the latest Widett victim helping?
And honestly, transportation + street grid access + all that doesn't even rate amongst first-division hangups here. The zero-plan for flood mitigation is going to bite first and hardest, because City Council won't release mitigation funds from the city climate resiliency effort without an action plan from the site masters. And neither will the state. There are no such plans here, because the sale is proceeding without knowledge of what zoning change would be sought for what land use. Fine and dandy if the buyer wants to take that risk unto itself as the ackwnowledged downside of holding all its cards, but what's the BDPA doing preemptively giving them I.O.U.'s to rubber-stamp the land-use tax break as transferrable across all but the most incredulous/illegal zoning changes? Shouldn't they be trying to compel--passively, if that's literally the most they can do--the developer to really really really prioritize taking a gander at an up-front site plan (that being their purpose in life) because that bowl WILL flood at the drop of a hat???

So we have a major problem here with a planning institution taking it all upon itself to make the lives of all other associated planning institutions that much harder by undercutting them left-and-right for the profit margins of well-connected developers. All while doing the opposite of its stated mission to bring clarity to the very multi-party touch developments that MOST affect all other institutions by making the barest "Well I tried" attempt at soliciting coherent development plans. How the fuck is that going to work out here when the site has been unmoored from the most basic "Pin the Tail on the Donkey" Q&A as to what land-use pot of flood mitigation resources it slots in? You can't develop new land usage in a bowl that's going to catastophically flood without a qualified mitigation plan up-front...but you can't attach a qualified mitigation plan without stating the intended land use. So either we're doing this ass-backwards and it's going to grind to a halt...or the whole point was to enable an asset transfer for multi-decade land parking.


Any which way, what are we still paying to have a BDPA for if soliciting plans is optional for some...a weapon used against others. Same broken-record question as always.
 
I think most of us would love to talk about Widett. you are the one derailing the thread with what you perceive is the impact the BPDA has had on this process.
lets talk nuts and bolts. what would you want to see here? for development? for the T facilities?

Well, I don't know. We've already had an archBoston "Midtown"/Widett Circle in a non-Olympics Boston planning thread that's been productively discussing such nutsy-boltsy aspects for 5 years now. I suggest re-bumping that one if you're dissatisfied, because the breaking news/current events that is the subject of this thread is not about the property being sold into the loving care of archBoston to troubleshoot. It's being sold to an actual developer with some sort of undisclosed aims. Thus maybe the actual developer and the BDPA that's active-intervening in the sale should probably speak up on what they want to see here so we have something dev-related to talk about in this thread. Instead of the story being that there's no plan...the explicit intention is that there's no plan..."no-plan" too-closely following in the footsteps of every other collapsed Widett scheme that collapsed because it had no plan...and institutions that have "Planning" in their goddamn names and mission statement taking great lengths to activist-intervene on behalf of more "no-plan."

That's what we have to talk about for current events. Where's the thread-derail in that? Don't shoot the messenger if grasping at straws is tedious; that's literally all there is here. Nutsy-boltsy goodness is 2 clicks over there. Jesus Christ...ask the mods to move that thread over to this subforum instead of flinging derail accusations at other posters.
 
Short of topmost-down state action on eminent domaining, it's out of the T's hands. MassDOT was always in that looking to either be the winning transactional bid, or to go in brokered with somebody else for the ground-level easement. That's why the Layover Alternatives analysis was so broad...because they couldn't force-feed any situation where they were guaranteed the upper hand.

Beacon Park is down to a pathetic 8 trainsets or storage now with the shit-sandwich West Station design inverting the layover and station placement to pointless isolation and cost bloating. That's not going to satisfy anything, and since Harvard (duly acknowledged in the FCMB presentation) is itching for a total zero-out the nonsensically inverted West v. yard placement looks like it's pre-conditioned to guarantee that outcome in the end. The only property they outright control is Readville, which can be zoned straight out to the Neponset riverbank for storage if need be. That's an ops-ugly setup as they'd be deadheading far too many sets all day long 8 miles from SS at considerable aggregate non-revenue cost chew. But in the barest technical sense, it can do the job if all other sites fail. That does, however, lead to a conundrum of where you site all the southside car maintenance and shops and Maintenance of Way facilities if you have to keep that land as emergency fallback for storage because other "partners" can't resist turf-warring everything beyond the edge of their own noses. You'd have to build shops out in the suburbs, which is larding on more inefficiency. Spot-on ideal would be to have Readville take up all the shop space, but downtown stone's-throw from SS taking up all the straight-storage-no-filler space. And then if/when NSRL is build *somewhat* (but not totally) reducing the amount of terminal storage required, reapportion some of that space for bus yard expansion.

Because this developer has no idea what--if anything--will get built there, technically nothing has changed with the T's prospects. They even wholly expected that the BDPA was going to be their worst enemy on the turf warrage, because that's exactly how it went when City & B24 shut MassDOT out of the Widett Olympics site planning but made demands that there was going to be some transit station next to their underground parking garage. Since infrastructure is the #1 most oft-cited problem here with getting anything built, getting anything gridded to the street, and getting anything flood-proofed in the 'bowl', the state agency tasked with "infrastructure" may ultimately still be the only linchpin that can get something built. Because if they float a ground-level storage easement with pumping stations for the flood risk--things a private developer would have no interest in doing as prereqs for reaching the street level--there's a logistical means and financial means for making dense development happen. Arguably the Olympics site there wouldn't have collapsed so suddenly and completely had the turf-warring City institutions involved invited MassDOT in from Day 1 to present the potential mutually-serving infrastructure solves for all the decking prereqs that scared away any/all developers. You would think it would be self-evident by now that the infrastructure gurus should be read in up-front for the solution brainstorming to blunt that overwhelming potential for another meltdown, but I guess in bizzaro Boston insider-world logic people who learn from their mistakes are born quitters.
Public entities don't need to use eminent domain; they can acquire property on the private market just like anybody else. The market just showed that this parcel could be had for ~$125 MM.

In your view, would full T/MassDOT ownership and control of this parcel be worth $125 MM to the public? If so, then the T / MassDOT should have acquired it. (This is an honest question; I'm not trying to troll or argue.)

$125 MM is obviously a ton of money, but if this parcel is truly central to operations it could possibly be worth it. For example, how many millions could be saved at Beacon Park if the T owned Widett? With full control and ownership, the T could use the parcel as they see fit, ideally realize cost savings elsewhere, and sell future sub-divided development rights to other entities to recoup costs.
 
Public entities don't need to use eminent domain; they can acquire property on the private market just like anybody else. The market just showed that this parcel could be had for ~$125 MM.

In your view, would full T/MassDOT ownership and control of this parcel be worth $125 MM to the public? If so, then the T / MassDOT should have acquired it. (This is an honest question; I'm not trying to troll or argue.)

$125 MM is obviously a ton of money, but if this parcel is truly central to operations it could possibly be worth it. For example, how many millions could be saved at Beacon Park if the T owned Widett? With full control and ownership, the T could use the parcel as they see fit, ideally realize cost savings elsewhere, and sell future sub-divided development rights to other entities to recoup costs.

I think so, because to use the ground-level easement (spaced for air rights from Day 1 as per all study renders to date) they'll be doing up their flood mitigation & pumping plans from Day 1 before the bowl is even graded. Because anything under MassDOT's umbrella is required to do the flood mitigation non-optional. The "not being as worth it" aspect for the free market comes more with the time that gets wasted dickering about these things instead of formulating actual plans. The risk is either going waaaaay too far into along into the real estate renders and then suddenly realizing "Wait...who pays for the decking?" and watching it implode into gravitational singularity in a week's time like B24's great gaffe.

Or, it devolves into a decade-long staring contest like:
  • "Well, I can't commit to a specced land use unless you tell me what flood mitigation is going to cost and what funds I can tap?"
  • "Well, I can't tell you what flood mitigation you have to do or what funds we can offer until you give me something concrete for planned land use."
  • "You first."
  • "No U."
  • "Whoever smelt it dealt it!"
If left to their own devices the institutions with "Planning" in their name and the developer it's aiding in the transaction can't remember that planning of this exact sort is a prereq to getting anything done, what function do they serve except wasting money and devaluing land? But, again...Widett's just the proverbial canary in a coalmine for the larger problem. Such a huge slice of the highest-upside remaining properties are either 1) waterfront-ish needing flood mitigation prereqs, or 2) stacked over other (mostly transpo) infrastructure. You can take your own annotated Google Map of hot dev sites throughout the city and pretty much start affixing question mark placeholders to all the ones at risk of getting upended by similar inanity if we don't learn. So if we're not remembering to do this up-front, how do we expect to get things done? Or use our time/money inside of the planning process wisely instead of chewing it to stale gum?

The answer doesn't always have to be MassDOT involvement. But somebody kickstarting the process has to be the first to ask the question, because not doing so has proven time and again to do nothing but waste time, money, and sow frustration and frayed planning relationships across the city. While, more often than not, ensuring that nothing gets built at all or what does is a pale, pale echo of original ambitions. I don't, for instance, think anyone's going to be truly well-served by letting Widett stalemate for 5 years over no flood or access plan and then deciding to make a "Mommy, help" call to MassDOT to bail them out with a better plan. It might get somethingorother built in the end, but it'll surely be more watered-down and less satisfactorily mutually-serving by a wide margin for that to have to happen years later after everyone's beyond sick of dealing with each other. We're already seeing that with the Beacon Park stalemate's de-evolution on all sides of that alleged "partnership": the storage yard that's no longer useful-enough storage, the 'union' station's forced inverted isolation from its surroundings, the incomprehensible chunky street grid, the absolute crickets from Harvard on what types of parcels such a nonsensical grid would divide, etc.

You'd think with something as easy to grasp as "need flood mitigation or All The Things a no-go" that the urgency to involve infrastructure planning up-front would start showing signs of applying learned behavior, especially after such littany of recent examples where failing to do so directly tanked the project. Apparently BDPA has instead decided after looking straight into that abyss to go: "Now hold my beer. . ." 🍺


Put it this way: I highly recommend losing onesself in that other Widett planning thread I linked and adding 12 more pages of purely fun-stuff member contributions. It'll be an enormously more satisfying and mentally healthier exercise than watching the years go by in this current events thread where each successive news item has the principals staring at the same starting spot utterly kerfuzzled that magic isn't happening in spite of themselves.
 
thanks for the link, didnt know that thread existed. 5 years and a whole 39 posts, howd I miss it?

would you be able to repost your pic from the first post? either here or there.
thanks

TinyPic ate that MS Paint doodle when it shut down its image host. I don't have that one saved. Basically, it was just shading parcels on a Google overhead to illustrate the ranking of highest-leverage to next-highest leverage to lowest-leverage parcels, and X'ing out the stuff B24 got stuck on trying to relocate (like the multi-story Cabot Red Line shops) that were a waste of their energy to over-focus on because they couldn't practically be relocated. I don't think I even took a gander at street griding...it was strictly slab-by-slab highlight coloring to show how 'hot' they were locationally relative to each other.

If some hot discussion reignites over there I might rip a new one out, but the illustration wasn't necessarily central to the ensuing discussion.
 
I really hope it doesnt end up negatively impacting nsrl thats my biggest worry. They need to do like hudson yards did and leave the ROWs open for the future.
 
Damn it looks like I missed my opportunity. Well, I'll have to settle for the second page!

Huge missed chance all around. For $125 million, the MBTA should just buy the land, deck it, get zoning relief from the city/state, and just build it/land lease it out like in various Asian public transit systems. Provision it for a local RER stop, too, in tandem with electrification.
 
Huge missed chance all around. For $125 million, the MBTA should just buy the land, deck it, get zoning relief from the city/state, and just build it/land lease it out like in various Asian public transit systems. Provision it for a local RER stop, too, in tandem with electrification.
If the MBTA was MassPort, it would probably do exactly that.

But, alas, the T is not Massport.
 
RED ALERT!!! RED ALERT!!

The Globe reports that this site could become . . . an Amazon warehouse. This would be a disaster and doom long-term efforts at intracity connectivity. This needs to be stopped.
 
Rob Griffin, head of capital markets at real estate firm Newmark, who is working with developers on the project, said negotiations have narrowed to four potential users. He declined to name them, but said two are logistics companies — a broad category that includes warehousing and shipping and could describe Amazon — one is a life sciences firm, and one would build a biomanufacturing plant.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03...d-be-home-massive-amazon-distribution-center/

The now-owners of Widdett own 20 acres, which seems like a very large parcel for a single life sciences firm. A single biomanufacturing plant on a 20 acre site would be a huge facility, even if it was one story.

For a logistics company, e.g., Amazon, the building itself would be about 350,000 sq ft. , or nearly half the 20 acres.
 
RED ALERT!!! RED ALERT!!

The Globe reports that this site could become . . . an Amazon warehouse. This would be a disaster and doom long-term efforts at intracity connectivity. This needs to be stopped.

The only way it would do that is if they were precluding train storage/maintenance by the MBTA, but the article also confirms that MassDOT is working to buy a portion of the site for that purpose.

This site is simply not accessible enough for any development that isn't industrial/warehousing, and those uses need somewhere to exist close to Downtown.
 
The only way it would do that is if they were precluding train storage/maintenance by the MBTA, but the article also confirms that MassDOT is working to buy a portion of the site for that purpose.

This site is simply not accessible enough for any development that isn't industrial/warehousing, and those uses need somewhere to exist close to Downtown.

Widett is extremely accessible. It's minutes away--by foot--from two of Boston's densest neighborhoods, two red line stations, the silver line, and the ink block. Deck Cabot Yards (as the city has discussed before,) restore the street grid, connect Southie to the South End, and build the neighborhood from there. This is literally a hole in the middle of the city that, with the right vision, can be transformed into a neighborhood filled with people who walk to work in the Financial District, Seaport, or Back Bay.
 
Widett is extremely accessible. It's minutes away--by foot--from two of Boston's densest neighborhoods, two red line stations, the silver line, and the ink block. Deck Cabot Yards (as the city has discussed before,) restore the street grid, connect Southie to the South End, and build the neighborhood from there. This is literally a hole in the middle of the city that, with the right vision, can be transformed into a neighborhood filled with people who walk to work in the Financial District, Seaport, or Back Bay.

Not that we haven't been over this before on this thread, but decks don't magically appear...
 

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