General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

[Delvin4519]

The main issue of terminating 70% of all Kenmore bound Green Line service at Government Center, is the resulting 5 seat commutes for those that require a bus transfer at both the Kenmore end of the Green Line and all northside Orange Line connections.

Chelsea, Charlestown, Malden, Medford, and Everett all have extremely poor transit service, and aside from Malden Square, the 104/109 coordinated branch on lower Broadway and Everett, and the 111 in Chelsea, there are no frequent transit services in this part of the city.

Simiarily, much of Allston-Brighton is cut off from Charlestown, and those 3 areas are all within Boston city limits.

Dropping off all northside Commuter rail riders 2 stops short of their Commuter rail transfer, and all northside Orange Line bus riders, 1 stop short of their bus or OL + bus connection, is a huge insult to them, considering all of these routes are low frequency routes except for the 111/104/109. Parts of Boston should not be a 5 seat ride from other parts of Boston within the inner core of the city.

The bus connections for neighorhoods on either end of the Kenmore bus hub or northside Orange Line bus hubs (plus those coming from the northside CR lines) are those that would have the most benefit of a B or C branch extension to North Station. It's not the destinations on the B and C branches themselves. The D branch is not enough service frequency to connect North Station and Kenmore if frequency is every 15 minutes off peak and 10 minutes peak.

The maps below show the resulting 4 and 5 seat rides for northside Orange Line riders, and Allston Brighton riders.

 

[The EGE]

Is BU a big enough employment center that you would want B rather than C going to North Station?

I don't think it's significant enough to make a difference, though the MBTA has origin-destination data for subway trips that would verify that. From my experience, undergrad and grad students mostly tended to live on the B or 57, and professors tended to the western suburbs. Non-academic staff were more scattered, but certainly didn't seem to cluster on the northside.

Dropping off all northside Commuter rail riders 2 stops short of their Commuter rail transfer, and all northside Orange Line bus riders, 1 stop short of their bus or OL + bus connection, is a huge insult to them, considering all of these routes are low frequency routes except for the 111/104/109. Parts of Boston should not be a 5 seat ride from other parts of Boston within the inner core of the city.

Is there actually significant demand between these areas such that this is an issue for more than a handful of riders? Going through the core will always be a 4-seat ride for some riders simply by the nature of a system with outlying bus terminals. If you have your buses and trains run frequently and reliably, and your stations designed well for transfers, that's not inherently a problem. It's only a 5-seat ride if you do a same-platform GL transfer rather than waiting for a D, and if you don't use the Winter Street Concourse.

I think you're also overstating how many riders would even use that routing. Riders along the 86 have a 2-seat ride to Sullivan routes, or 3-seat ride to Wellington or Malden Center routes. Boston Landing station also gives a 3-seat ride. Riders along the 66, 501, or 504 can take them to the Orange Line for a 3-seat ride. The 64, 66, 70, and 86 all serve the Red Line for a 4-seat ride.

BNRD will cut the 86 back to Harvard, but the T109 will be a frequent crosstown from Harvard to Sullivan and Everett. The new routings of the T7, T96, T101, T104, and T110 will also vastly improve connections between western and north[east]ern areas.

 

[Aprehensive_Words]

Is BU a big enough employment center that you would want B rather than C going to North Station?

Putting @Delvin4519's explanation another way: The rule of thumb in the real estate world is that a majority of folks who work in the urban core are more likely follow established transportation connections. So, if you work around North Station or Government Center and aren't living on a subway line/frequent bus route, you're more likely to buy a home on I-93, Route 1 or one of the North Station train lines, and vice-versa if you're looking for a job. Or if your job is in Watertown, you're probably tied to the Pike, Route 2 or a part of the Red Line that doesn't make a daily transfer to the 71 bus hell on earth.

The flip side of this is that people tend to write off jobs if they fall outside the corridors they live on. So, like you see with the West Station advocacy (example: page 22 of this ABC report), some people will make the argument you generate economic opportunity by creating links between corridors/catchment areas.

 

[Delvin4519]

I don't think it's significant enough to make a difference, though the MBTA has origin-destination data for subway trips that would verify that. From my experience, undergrad and grad students mostly tended to live on the B or 57, and professors tended to the western suburbs. Non-academic staff were more scattered, but certainly didn't seem to cluster on the northside.

Is there actually significant demand between these areas such that this is an issue for more than a handful of riders? Going through the core will always be a 4-seat ride for some riders simply by the nature of a system with outlying bus terminals. If you have your buses and trains run frequently and reliably, and your stations designed well for transfers, that's not inherently a problem. It's only a 5-seat ride if you do a same-platform GL transfer rather than waiting for a D, and if you don't use the Winter Street Concourse.

I think you're also overstating how many riders would even use that routing. Riders along the 86 have a 2-seat ride to Sullivan routes, or 3-seat ride to Wellington or Malden Center routes. Boston Landing station also gives a 3-seat ride. Riders along the 66, 501, or 504 can take them to the Orange Line for a 3-seat ride. The 64, 66, 70, and 86 all serve the Red Line for a 4-seat ride.

BNRD will cut the 86 back to Harvard, but the T109 will be a frequent crosstown from Harvard to Sullivan and Everett. The new routings of the T7, T96, T101, T104, and T110 will also vastly improve connections between western and north[east]ern areas.

One of the biggest problems of the current key bus+rapid transit network is that the northern half of the Orange Line has NO high frequency bus routes at all. Most of the buses serving Charlestown, Sullivan, Wellington, or Malden all only run hourly service with half hour service rush hours.

In Allston Brighton, the 86 runs 30 - 40 minute headways off peak, and it does not serve Oak Square or Packards Corner (headways on the 64 is even worse). While the 86 does eat some portion of the 57's route that would otherwise need to travel via downtown, that still leaves a decent portion of the 57 where the only viable alternative is to travel via downtown. The Boston Landing station sees 2 hour headways weekends with only hourly service weekdays. The 501 runs on a one way loop and does not run outside rush hour. Once rush hour ends, if one is nowhere near the 86 or the Boston Landing CR, or the CR or 64 timetables are too inconvenient, oftentimes, the only option is the 57 that runs every 10 - 12 minutes rush hour and every 15 - 20 minutes off peak as of winter 2024, and trips are getting slower.

The Blue, Orange, and Red Lines in the downtown core all run significantly more service at higher frequencies than any of the Green Line branches, running 169, 133, and 132 trips. The Green Line, on the other hand has been steadily running fewer and fewer trips per day. If fewer Green line trips are running, this means the headways for the D will only worsen. The Green Line has averaged 351 trips/day for the winter 2024 schedule. Assuming they are all evenly distributed for all branches, that would mean 88 trips/day for the D, which is only 2/3rds (66%) the service of other direct heavy rail lines.

The Green Line trunk is also notorious for its unreliability and congestion downtown. 50% of Green Line trips from North Station to Kenmore take longer than 20 minutes or less than 16 minutes. A similar trip on the Orange Line from Sullivan Square to Back Bay sees 50% of trips within a minute of each other, which is 4x more consistancy and reliability in travel times. Adding a transfer penalty from North Station to Kenmore only compounds the unreliability problems even more than the existing unreliability of a D branch run from North Station to Kenmore.

One of the biggest problems with the MBTA is a lack of clockface pulse transfers for low frequency bus routes. This means that timetables for buses are all coordinated so that buses arrive at a station, meet a train, and then depart on a 20, 30, or 60 minute clockface schedule. A subway (or bus) to bus transfer on the northside Orange Line is often painful with low frequency buses in isolated hostile industrial areas, as these buses do not wait for connecting Orange Line trains. Oftentimes it is impractical to make a connection to the 86 from a connecting bus if traffic congestion in Charlestown, Everett, or Allston-Brighton, risks missing the 86 and having to wait 30 - 40 minutes for the next bus.

For example, in Charlestown, the Saturday schedules for the 93 is every 26 minutes, the 89 is every 25 minutes, and the 86 is every 28-29 minutes. Yet the schedule is set up so that the 93 arrives at Sullivan a few minutes after the 86 and the 89 depart, meaning there is a 24 minute transfer at Sullivan to connect to a bus to continue westwards. The transfer penalty is too great so the only way to get to Somerville or Allston Brighton is to travel downtown to either the North Station or Haymarket terminals and transfer to the Green Line there.

(GL running fewer and fewer trips, source: TransitMatters data dashboard)

 

[Teban54]

One of the biggest problems of the current key bus+rapid transit network is that the northern half of the Orange Line has NO high frequency bus routes at all. Most of the buses serving Charlestown, Sullivan, Wellington, or Malden all only run hourly service with half hour service rush hours.

In Allston Brighton, the 86 runs 30 - 40 minute headways off peak, and it does not serve Oak Square or Packards Corner (headways on the 64 is even worse). While the 86 does eat some portion of the 57's route that would otherwise need to travel via downtown, that still leaves a decent portion of the 57 where the only viable alternative is to travel via downtown. The Boston Landing station sees 2 hour headways weekends with only hourly service weekdays. The 501 runs on a one way loop and does not run outside rush hour. Once rush hour ends, if one is nowhere near the 86 or the Boston Landing CR, or the CR or 64 timetables are too inconvenient, oftentimes, the only option is the 57 that runs every 10 - 12 minutes rush hour and every 15 - 20 minutes off peak as of winter 2024, and trips are getting slower.

The Blue, Orange, and Red Lines in the downtown core all run significantly more service at higher frequencies than any of the Green Line branches, running 169, 133, and 132 trips. The Green Line, on the other hand has been steadily running fewer and fewer trips per day. If fewer Green line trips are running, this means the headways for the D will only worsen. The Green Line has averaged 351 trips/day for the winter 2024 schedule. Assuming they are all evenly distributed for all branches, that would mean 88 trips/day for the D, which is only 2/3rds (66%) the service of other direct heavy rail lines.

The Green Line trunk is also notorious for its unreliability and congestion downtown. 50% of Green Line trips from North Station to Kenmore take longer than 20 minutes or less than 16 minutes. A similar trip on the Orange Line from Sullivan Square to Back Bay sees 50% of trips within a minute of each other, which is 4x more consistancy and reliability in travel times. Adding a transfer penalty from North Station to Kenmore only compounds the unreliability problems even more than the existing unreliability of a D branch run from North Station to Kenmore.

One of the biggest problems with the MBTA is a lack of clockface pulse transfers for low frequency bus routes. This means that timetables for buses are all coordinated so that buses arrive at a station, meet a train, and then depart on a 20, 30, or 60 minute clockface schedule. A subway (or bus) to bus transfer on the northside Orange Line is often painful with low frequency buses in isolated hostile industrial areas, as these buses do not wait for connecting Orange Line trains. Oftentimes it is impractical to make a connection to the 86 from a connecting bus if traffic congestion in Charlestown, Everett, or Allston-Brighton, risks missing the 86 and having to wait 30 - 40 minutes for the next bus.

For example, in Charlestown, the Saturday schedules for the 93 is every 26 minutes, the 89 is every 25 minutes, and the 86 is every 28-29 minutes. Yet the schedule is set up so that the 93 arrives at Sullivan a few minutes after the 86 and the 89 depart, meaning there is a 24 minute transfer at Sullivan to connect to a bus to continue westwards. The transfer penalty is too great so the only way to get to Somerville or Allston Brighton is to travel downtown to either the North Station or Haymarket terminals and transfer to the Green Line there.

(GL running fewer and fewer trips, source: TransitMatters data dashboard)
View attachment 48834

I don't see the need to complain about OL North having no frequent bus routes when the Bus Network Redesign introduces 5 Frequent Bus Routes that connect to OL there, 4 of which are crosstown routes (T96, T101, T104, T109, T110). That's not counting SL3x/SL6, not counting T7, and not counting the Salem St 106/108 corridor with two half-hourly routes that are not clock-facing.

(Unless you think BNRD will never happen, but then, it means there are no resources to introduce frequent bus routes there outside of BNRD either.)

As for the Green Line branches, let's not forget that they were historically little more than other streetcar routes that were bustituted later. Most riders living in equivalent places already have to endure a 2-seat ride just to get to downtown, and the Green Line riders, particularly B/C/E, are the most privileged in the entire system in that aspect. Despite the lower frequencies (are we really comparing streetcars to HRT?) and unreliability, they enjoy the significant benefit of having a one-seat ride to downtown Boston and every other rapid transit line.

 

[nbcoram]

(are we really comparing streetcars to HRT?)

Part of the problem here is not what the Green Line does for its outer reaches, but rather what the Green Line does for downtown. It tries to fill the role of rapid transit in downtown and it doesn't do an especially good job of it. At the very least, Kenmore to North Station is the heart of the Green Line and there should be more than one branch at Kenmore providing through service to North Station. If we want the Green Line to be MacGyver'd rapid transit, we should make a more serious effort to make it work for more people.

some people will make the argument you generate economic opportunity by creating links between corridors/catchment areas.

I think this is another solid argument for more links to North Station and, more importantly, Haymarket bus transfers and the Orange Line at North Station.
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Speaking of transfers, let's talk about the forced transfer that B/C trains looping Govy induces. Anecdotally, I notice that a decent chunk of the time, there is an excessively long wait for any train servicing North Station, then multiple in short order. I pull up data from the TM Dashboard and have this anecdote confirmed. (Data from last Friday is used as we have been running extra cars to North Station this week and so data from this week would be unrepresentative of a typical day). The forced transfer would be survivable if the headway was consistently short, but it isn't. The average is 4:36 and the median is 3:41 which doesn't sound bad until you look at the finer points. Look at those points near or even above 10 minutes, and then notice that they are consistently happening multiple times an hour. Yikes. This isn't a new problem, either. It's one that could potentially be fixed by stronger schedule discipline and good dispatching but even then...

In the context of the Orange Line shutdown, the failure becomes even more shameful. Today's average so far is 3:50, median 2:50, but between the fact that we have some extra cars going to North Station and the fact that late evening service hasn't happened yet, these numbers both make sense. When you are using an already very busy light rail system to replace heavy rail and you aren't chucking every train you can to North Station (there have not been *that* many EDC's), it's nothing short of a failure. Despite the EDC's, there were still too many moments of 10+ minute headways. Not as many as a typical day, mind you, but still too many. And even a 4-6 minute headway to Haymarket and North Station is inadequate with the nature of the diversion.

 

[Longfellow]

Thankful that the friendly green line operator is grinding this axe so I don't have to. Good points all around. Of course if we had an actual crosstown bus on Vassar St we wouldn't have this issue since it'd take 15 minutes rather than an hour+ to do some of these trips.

 

[Teban54]

Part of the problem here is not what the Green Line does for its outer reaches, but rather what the Green Line does for downtown. It tries to fill the role of rapid transit in downtown and it doesn't do an especially good job of it. At the very least, Kenmore to North Station is the heart of the Green Line and there should be more than one branch at Kenmore providing through service to North Station. If we want the Green Line to be MacGyver'd rapid transit, we should make a more serious effort to make it work for more people.

While I completely agree with you, my original point about "lower frequencies" was specifically regarding @Delvin4519's claim that each Green Line branch runs less frequently than each of the HRT lines, quoted below. When combining frequencies of all branches east of Copley (and even Kenmore), the Green Line's number of trips blows all other lines out of water.

The Blue, Orange, and Red Lines in the downtown core all run significantly more service at higher frequencies than any of the Green Line branches, running 169, 133, and 132 trips. The Green Line, on the other hand has been steadily running fewer and fewer trips per day. If fewer Green line trips are running, this means the headways for the D will only worsen. The Green Line has averaged 351 trips/day for the winter 2024 schedule. Assuming they are all evenly distributed for all branches, that would mean 88 trips/day for the D, which is only 2/3rds (66%) the service of other direct heavy rail lines.

 

[Delvin4519]

I don't see the need to complain about OL North having no frequent bus routes when the Bus Network Redesign introduces 5 Frequent Bus Routes that connect to OL there, 4 of which are crosstown routes (T96, T101, T104, T109, T110). That's not counting SL3x/SL6, not counting T7, and not counting the Salem St 106/108 corridor with two half-hourly routes that are not clock-facing.

(Unless you think BNRD will never happen, but then, it means there are no resources to introduce frequent bus routes there outside of BNRD either.)

As for the Green Line branches, let's not forget that they were historically little more than other streetcar routes that were bustituted later. Most riders living in equivalent places already have to endure a 2-seat ride just to get to downtown, and the Green Line riders, particularly B/C/E, are the most privileged in the entire system in that aspect. Despite the lower frequencies (are we really comparing streetcars to HRT?) and unreliability, they enjoy the significant benefit of having a one-seat ride to downtown Boston and every other rapid transit line.

Part of the problem here is not what the Green Line does for its outer reaches, but rather what the Green Line does for downtown. It tries to fill the role of rapid transit in downtown and it doesn't do an especially good job of it. At the very least, Kenmore to North Station is the heart of the Green Line and there should be more than one branch at Kenmore providing through service to North Station. If we want the Green Line to be MacGyver'd rapid transit, we should make a more serious effort to make it work for more people.


I think this is another solid argument for more links to North Station and, more importantly, Haymarket bus transfers and the Orange Line at North Station.
--------
Speaking of transfers, let's talk about the forced transfer that B/C trains looping Govy induces. Anecdotally, I notice that a decent chunk of the time, there is an excessively long wait for any train servicing North Station, then multiple in short order. I pull up data from the TM Dashboard and have this anecdote confirmed. (Data from last Friday is used as we have been running extra cars to North Station this week and so data from this week would be unrepresentative of a typical day). The forced transfer would be survivable if the headway was consistently short, but it isn't. The average is 4:36 and the median is 3:41 which doesn't sound bad until you look at the finer points. Look at those points near or even above 10 minutes, and then notice that they are consistently happening multiple times an hour. Yikes. This isn't a new problem, either. It's one that could potentially be fixed by stronger schedule discipline and good dispatching but even then...
View attachment 48836
In the context of the Orange Line shutdown, the failure becomes even more shameful. Today's average so far is 3:50, median 2:50, but between the fact that we have some extra cars going to North Station and the fact that late evening service hasn't happened yet, these numbers both make sense. When you are using an already very busy light rail system to replace heavy rail and you aren't chucking every train you can to North Station (there have not been *that* many EDC's), it's nothing short of a failure. Despite the EDC's, there were still too many moments of 10+ minute headways. Not as many as a typical day, mind you, but still too many. And even a 4-6 minute headway to Haymarket and North Station is inadequate with the nature of the diversion.

View attachment 48837

Nailed it right in the head. This reflects my experience with the Green Line at North Station and Haymarket. The 15 minute headway happens, far, far, far, far too much. When talking about a key bus route running every 12 - 18 minutes at the western end of the Green Line central subway tunnel, 9 - 15 minute headways on the Orange Line, and half hourly or hourly buses along the northern path of the Orange line, the forced transfer between Govy and Haymarket/North Sta. with the 15 minute gaps of service between them is really going to sting.

I often arrive at North Station often to find a 10 - 12 minute gap in service despite it being served by both the E and the D branches, and it is hardly any different than arriving at Medford Tufts, which is only one branch, where I often encounter 13 - 15 minute wait times for a GLX trip into downtown. The excessively egregious headways between North Station and Gov't Ctr is not great for making a bus transfer from Kenmore to the Green Line and getting to any of the Orange Line buses Haymarket/North Station/north.

The Green Line between Kenmore and Copley is trying to serve as a "heavy rail substitute" like the RL/OL/BL, given that the 57, 60, and 65 are truncated to Kenmore because of this "rapid transit connection" the Green Line provides. In such a case, there should be at least 2 branches from Kenmore that are through run to North Station to provide a rough equivalent level of direct rapid transit connections like all the other rapid transit lines (including Red-Blue connector). In a god mode transit sandbox, I would use such a god mode sandbox to fully untangle street running services from dedicated ROW services, which would mean disconnecting the C and B, and through running all remaining underground service at Kenmore to North Sttaion.

 

[nbcoram]

Thankful that the friendly green line operator is grinding this axe so I don't have to. Good points all around. Of course if we had an actual crosstown bus on Vassar St we wouldn't have this issue since it'd take 15 minutes rather than an hour+ to do some of these trips.

Crosstown service is a whole other can of worms. One day not that long ago I was a cover at Union Square and had an hour before my next trip and wanted Starbucks and went to the Kendall one since it was the first one that I thought of (Lechmere and Central's Starbucks locations are of a similar distance). To do Union to Kendall on public transit requires taking the half-hourly 91 to Central and then the disastrous Red Line one stop, or taking the branch headway Green into the core and then the Red back up. I ended up taking a Bluebike, which was 8 minutes there and 8 minutes back. Biking is one of the best ways to get around the area. Even going to/from work I have completed portions of my journey via bike sometimes, especially during diversions.

Nailed it right in the head. This reflects my experience with the Green Line at North Station and Haymarket. The 15 minute headway happens, far, far, far, far too much. When talking about a key bus route running every 12 - 18 minutes at the western end of the Green Line central subway tunnel, 9 - 15 minute headways on the Orange Line, and half hourly or hourly buses along the northern path of the Orange line, the forced transfer between Govy and Haymarket/North Sta. with the 15 minute gaps of service between them is really going to sting.

I often arrive at North Station often to find a 10 - 12 minute gap in service despite it being served by both the E and the D branches, and it is hardly any different than arriving at Medford Tufts, which is only one branch, where I often encounter 13 - 15 minute wait times for a GLX trip into downtown. The excessively egregious headways between North Station and Gov't Ctr is not great for making a bus transfer from Kenmore to the Green Line and getting to any of the Orange Line buses Haymarket/North Station/north.

The Green Line between Kenmore and Copley is trying to serve as a "heavy rail subsitute" like the RL/OL/BL, given that the 57, 60, and 65 are tuncated to Kenmore because of this "rapid transit connection" the Green Line provides. I think it is more than fair to compare the level of frequency the single branch between Kenmore and North Station provides with other RTL lines, in such a case.

As someone who comes into North Station on the CR regularly, I cannot tell you how immense my frustration with the situation is as a passenger. Going to have to deal with this every day (except Fridays and Marathon week) going to work on the B and C branches for spring schedule. Orange Line and Bluebike willI become my best friends. hope to everything there is work on the E that falls to me for summer, then I am most likely moving at the end of the summer which will give me a lot more flexibility since I intend on buying my own folding e-bike at that time.

And also, besides the everyday commuter, there is also the visitor to consider. We do run EDC's for Fenway events, but B/C to North as the regular service pattern would do so many favors for north side CR riders going to a ballgame. While baseball games should not be the #1 consideration for transit service patterns, there are at least 81 Red Sox home games per year, plus numerous concerts, and also playoff baseball games some years.

Unlike the TD Garden, which has built-in connections to not just two Green branches (and we run EDC's to the Garden too) but also the Orange Line and 5 CR lines, Kenmore is the main transit connection for Fenway events. Lansdowne gets people, yes, but under the current CR model with no NSRL and limited schedules, it will forever be limited in its utility only seeing Worcester/Framingham service. While a proper HRT connection to Kenmore would be ideal not just for Fenway Park but for its importance as a bus hub, an HRT connection is not coming any time soon, no matter how much I want to crayon Blue to Brookline Village or beyond via Kenmore and the heart of the LMA into existence. (My ultimate Boston transit crayon revolves heavily on using a Blue Line extension as Green Line relief, but crayons are beyond the scope of this thread.)

The Green Line between Kenmore and Copley is trying to serve as a "heavy rail subsitute" like the RL/OL/BL

this is my #1 argument for sending all services to at least North Station on a regularly scheduled basis. the entire tunnel tries to behave like heavy rail. the Orange Line is close to it in most of downtown but a 1-seat ride from Kenmore and Hynes to Haymarket and North Station..... good luck with that!!!!

 

[RandomWalk]

I assume the ops folks at the T don’t like to use North Station as a routine terminus is because it requires changing ends. The loops avoid that.

 

[Brattle Loop]

Speaking of transfers, let's talk about the forced transfer that B/C trains looping Govy induces. Anecdotally, I notice that a decent chunk of the time, there is an excessively long wait for any train servicing North Station, then multiple in short order. I pull up data from the TM Dashboard and have this anecdote confirmed. (Data from last Friday is used as we have been running extra cars to North Station this week and so data from this week would be unrepresentative of a typical day). The forced transfer would be survivable if the headway was consistently short, but it isn't. The average is 4:36 and the median is 3:41 which doesn't sound bad until you look at the finer points. Look at those points near or even above 10 minutes, and then notice that they are consistently happening multiple times an hour. Yikes. This isn't a new problem, either. It's one that could potentially be fixed by stronger schedule discipline and good dispatching but even then...

It's a shame Government Center doesn't have a loop with a convenient cross-platform transfer that could be used to help deal with some of the crowding that results.

I was at GC this afternoon (before rush hour) and the first train that came in (probably five or so minutes max after the one I'd just missed, which was signed for North Station) was so packed that a bunch of people who tried to get on couldn't fit. There was bunching, and I managed to get on the next one that was literally right behind, but that was also packed to the gills, and it wouldn't surprise me if some people also didn't fit on that one.

All the while the Brattle Loop track just sat there, empty. It'd probably help if they used that some more, especially because it would mean fewer people who need to wait for the people getting off at GC to squeeze off the trains before anyone can board.

I assume the ops folks at the T don’t like to use North Station as a routine terminus is because it requires changing ends. The loops avoid that.

Except the NS turnback is more operationally flexible, because you can hold cars off the mainline. At Government you can only hold cars in the loop or, worse, on the platform. (Park you can only really hold them on the platform, but since that track only serves the loop it's mildly less disruptive.

 

[Riverside]

If the T had extra cars (which, as far as I can tell, they don't), they could run a supplemental North Station service that terminates at Blandford St:

That would boost frequencies in the "pseudo-heavy rail" section but would avoid the pain of running on the B/C.

 

[nbcoram]

If the T had extra cars (which, as far as I can tell, they don't), they could run a supplemental North Station service that terminates at Blandford St:

View attachment 48849

That would boost frequencies in the "pseudo-heavy rail" section but would avoid the pain of running on the B/C.

The Blandford siding is, to my knowledge, out of service (which is why the B diversions crossed back at Babcock). They did remove the trash bag thingy that was covering the "stop here to cross back" sign at Blandford, so maybe it will be back in-service soon. My question is why we didn't fix this in time to get Blandford Siding back in-service for the second diversion.

With regard to extra cars - we do have *some* extra cars, clearly enough to run a few EDC's. If any of you have been to Riverside and taken a walk along the fence adjacent to the yard, there is a sea of cars that just sit there. A handful of these are clearly too goofed up to have any hope of returning to service, but I wonder what is holding us back from getting some of them fixed up and back on the rails. Is it a parts thing? Is it a lack of interest thing? And not to mention I have never seen more than 14 Type 9's out at a time (7 deuces). There happen to be 7 deuces of Type 9's running right now, but my instructor said that there have been "8 or so" type 9's that just sit unused. If there is some problem with those cars, WHY ARE WE NOT FIXING THEM!?!??!? The Type 9's are new enough that getting parts should not be a chore. I will have to look at Pantograph to see if 9's are consistently being sent to the carhouse or if it's the same 9's being held. The 9's are not very well liked within the T, but they are an asset that we need to be using more. If we could get to a point where we are running 11 or 12 deuces of Type 9's, we could probably run a Blandford-N. Station shuttle just with the extra cars gained plus maybe a 7/8 deuce or two (I'd need to do the math on that).

It's a shame Government Center doesn't have a loop with a convenient cross-platform transfer that could be used to help deal with some of the crowding that results.

I was at GC this afternoon (before rush hour) and the first train that came in (probably five or so minutes max after the one I'd just missed, which was signed for North Station) was so packed that a bunch of people who tried to get on couldn't fit. There was bunching, and I managed to get on the next one that was literally right behind, but that was also packed to the gills, and it wouldn't surprise me if some people also didn't fit on that one.

All the while the Brattle Loop track just sat there, empty. It'd probably help if they used that some more, especially because it would mean fewer people who need to wait for the people getting off at GC to squeeze off the trains before anyone can board.

The Brattle Loop unfortunately confuses the crap out of passengers, precisely because we use it so rarely. The amount of people who had no clue where to go when we were using it for Union Square service was stunning. The Brattle Loop is a underutilized asset...

Except the NS turnback is more operationally flexible, because you can hold cars off the mainline. At Government you can only hold cars in the loop or, worse, on the platform. (Park you can only really hold them on the platform, but since that track only serves the loop it's mildly less disruptive.

This. But it's the MBTA, so we like to ignore operational flexibility...

 

[Longfellow]

It seems wild that the Type 9's would not be well loved... they're attractive and comfortable cars. I remember when they started coming out average people would brag to each other about getting to ride one of the new cars since it was so rare. I think a lot of poeple who didn't know thought that the whole system was going to use the Type 9's, but actually its more like you get to ride it once a month maybe.

 

[JeffDowntown]

While I completely agree with you, my original point about "lower frequencies" was specifically regarding @Delvin4519's claim that each Green Line branch runs less frequently than each of the HRT lines, quoted below. When combining frequencies of all branches east of Copley (and even Kenmore), the Green Line's number of trips blows all other lines out of water.

But that high frequency is only Copley to Government Center. So the high frequency zone fails to connect to the major northern rail terminus (North Station) and the major northern bus terminus (Haymarket). That is an operational failure.

 

[nbcoram]

It seems wild that the Type 9's would not be well loved... they're attractive and comfortable cars. I remember when they started coming out average people would brag to each other about getting to ride one of the new cars since it was so rare. I think a lot of poeple who didn't know thought that the whole system was going to use the Type 9's, but actually its more like you get to ride it once a month maybe.

The 9's are definitely a lot more popular among riders than ops employees. I like driving them, but the 9's force you to be more careful when driving. The legitimate gripes I can come up with for the 9's:
-the mirror is slow to retract
-at very slow speeds the non-emergency braking can be a little laggy
-the mirror is reflective as anything

My responses:
-yes sure. however, needing to wait a second before taking off isn't 100% bad from a safety perspective
-in the areas where this can become an issue (B/C surface), you have to drive more defensively on a 9, also not a bad thing
-the curtain helps solve this

Some operators also don't like the cabs on the 9's. That's an eye of the beholder thing. The 9's are designed to force you to drive differently, which being honest is not a bad thing with the reputation some GL ops have.

A lot of the hatred of the 9's boils down to "they're new and they make you drive differently as a safety check".

 

[nbcoram]

And not to mention I have never seen more than 14 Type 9's out at a time (7 deuces). There happen to be 7 deuces of Type 9's running right now, but my instructor said that there have been "8 or so" type 9's that just sit unused. If there is some problem with those cars, WHY ARE WE NOT FIXING THEM!?!??!? The Type 9's are new enough that getting parts should not be a chore. I will have to look at Pantograph to see if 9's are consistently being sent to the carhouse or if it's the same 9's being held.

Time for Brookie to eat her words a bit. Taking a cursory look at pantograph, it looks like 20 of the Type 9's have been out at some point today and only one of them (3903) has not been out in the last four days (3903 being out since last June). So either the carhouse has improved with getting things out and available to use, or my instructor fell victim to a game of telephone in what he passed along to us. Maybe a bit of both.

The point still stands that it's rare to see 12 or more 9's out on the system at any given time, and sometimes it's 8, 10, or less. I can confirm that some inspectors don't like sending 9's because of how disliked they are though, so I definitely won't be eating those words.

 

[as02143]

The 9's are definitely a lot more popular among riders than ops employees. I like driving them, but the 9's force you to be more careful when driving. The legitimate gripes I can come up with for the 9's:
-the mirror is slow to retract
-at very slow speeds the non-emergency braking can be a little laggy
-the mirror is reflective as anything

My responses:
-yes sure. however, needing to wait a second before taking off isn't 100% bad from a safety perspective
-in the areas where this can become an issue (B/C surface), you have to drive more defensively on a 9, also not a bad thing
-the curtain helps solve this

Some operators also don't like the cabs on the 9's. That's an eye of the beholder thing. The 9's are designed to force you to drive differently, which being honest is not a bad thing with the reputation some GL ops have.

A lot of the hatred of the 9's boils down to "they're new and they make you drive differently as a safety check".

it seems like some more senior operators appreciate the 'streetcar'-ness of the previous types, while, to be honest, most of us riders really appreciate the newness of the 9.

 

[Teban54]

The Red Line was planned to be bustituted south of Broadway today, but now trains are turning back at Park St due to a derailment at Broadway:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1771473750065611121

This is still ongoing as of writing. Nobody was injured in the derailment, as the train was empty.