Portland Passenger Rail

Just to add to the conversation, CSRR (Conway Scenic) plans(hopes) to reopen the Mtn Division line from Portland to Conway. Both passenger and freight are proposed. In addition, Vermont Rail is rehabbing the other end from St Johnsbury to Whitefield NH. Conway picks up the line from there to Conway. Now, this opens up the possibility for service to Montreal. This opportunity might be triggering the train station option at Mercy to allow transfer between lines.
 
PWMFlyer said:
Just to add to the conversation, CSRR (Conway Scenic) plans(hopes) to reopen the Mtn Division line from Portland to Conway. Both passenger and freight are proposed. In addition, Vermont Rail is rehabbing the other end from St Johnsbury to Whitefield NH. Conway picks up the line from there to Conway. Now, this opens up the possibility for service to Montreal. This opportunity might be triggering the train station option at Mercy to allow transfer between lines.
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Completing the wye to the Mtn division line was at one point a possibility. There is a bridge carrying Fore River pkwy that at least somewhat keeps that alignment intact. Regardless, I don’t think the (somewhat remote) possibility of a daily or less scenic train should be a dealbreaker when it comes to station siting. The train could just back into the station if it’s at the Union site.
 
Yeah, the Mtn. Division reopening in any capacity is extremely speculative and very unlikely in the foreseeable future. It might become feasible if they ever start building Toronto-style high-rises in South Windham and Sebago Lake village.

The state hired consultants to look at it in 2007 and again in 2021 and came to the same conclusion, that restoring rail service would be extremely expensive and would not actually serve very much traffic:

The most recent study found that restoring rail service would require over $60 million of work just to bring it up to "class 2" standards (which would impose a 30 mph speed limit for passenger trains). There's no funding for it, and even if there were, there are dozens of other transit projects (including on the Downeaster corridor) that could put that money to better use, and serve far more people.

Note that the proposed trail conversion is also pretty expensive, at $17 million for the entire corridor. But unlike the rail proposal, the trail can be done in cheaper segments, and would provide transportation benefits even if the entire route isn't completed. Filling the 5-mile gap between South Windham and downtown Westbrook, for instance, would put thousands of more people within an easy e-bike ride of downtown Westbrook and the METRO system.
 
If Montreal is the goal, focus on the Grand Trunk (SLR or whatever it's called now). That has the advantage of currently being a working railroad, at least from Danville north, and it had passenger service as far as Bethel in the 90's (the Sunday River ski train, back when the railroad and the resort were owned by people who, at least, would try audacious things). Reassembling the Mountain by a bunch of small operators, when CSX isn't even using it as far as the Westbrook Main St. crossing (Sappi is no longer a customer), is such a pie in the sky I'd bet on me winning Powerball first.

I'd be interested in knowing what percentage of users originating trips in Portland are arriving at the station by means other than personal motor vehicles or rideshare/taxi. And, of course, what percentage of people disembarking in Portland are on trips that didn't originate here.
 
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markhb said:
If Montreal is the goal, focus on the Grand Trunk (SLR or whatever it's called now). That has the advantage of currently being a working railroad, at least from Danville north, and it had passenger service as far as Bethel in the 90's (the Sunday River ski train, back when the railroad and the resort were owned by people who, at least, would try audacious things). Reassembling the Mountain by a bunch of small operators, when CSX isn't even using it as far as the Westbrook Main St. crossing (Sappi is no longer a customer), is such a pie in the sky I'd bet on me winning Powerball first.

I'd be interested in knowing what percentage of users originating trips in Portland are arriving at the station by means other than personal motor vehicles or rideshare/taxi. And, of course, what percentage of people disembarking in Portland are on trips that didn't originate here.
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Interesting - I wondered where the 2 set of tracks pretty much in my back yard joined up, apparently Danville (a few miles north) :)
I think this is the full line - We often walk on the (deteriorating) tracks, I think the last trains on it serviced B&M Baked Beans...

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cneal said:
Yeah, the Mtn. Division reopening in any capacity is extremely speculative and very unlikely in the foreseeable future. It might become feasible if they ever start building Toronto-style high-rises in South Windham and Sebago Lake village.

The state hired consultants to look at it in 2007 and again in 2021 and came to the same conclusion, that restoring rail service would be extremely expensive and would not actually serve very much traffic:

The most recent study found that restoring rail service would require over $60 million of work just to bring it up to "class 2" standards (which would impose a 30 mph speed limit for passenger trains). There's no funding for it, and even if there were, there are dozens of other transit projects (including on the Downeaster corridor) that could put that money to better use, and serve far more people.

Note that the proposed trail conversion is also pretty expensive, at $17 million for the entire corridor. But unlike the rail proposal, the trail can be done in cheaper segments, and would provide transportation benefits even if the entire route isn't completed. Filling the 5-mile gap between South Windham and downtown Westbrook, for instance, would put thousands of more people within an easy e-bike ride of downtown Westbrook and the METRO system.
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The study that was done by MDOT was based on customers that PAR pissed off and wanted nothing to do with them. Now with CSX in operations, former PAR customers are interested. Conway is in talks to purchase the line and do the repairs. I was involved with a group that looked at several potential customers including Poland Spring and gas customers. They also want Portland to base the cruise ship/rail tours instead on bussing to Conway. The rail division at MDOT was very closed minded and we could have fixed the line at a lower cost. Vermont Rail System (purchased the line from Whitefield, and the section that PAR refused to sell and fix, is bringing the other section up to date. There is a sand depository that is worth big bucks in NH Which the old MEC can access.
 
um1990 said:
Interesting - I wondered where the 2 set of tracks pretty much in my back yard joined up, apparently Danville (a few miles north) :)
I think this is the full line - We often walk on the (deteriorating) tracks, I think the last trains on it serviced B&M Baked Beans...

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Originally there was a major junction line at Commercial St. in Portland. When MDOT ripped the tracks out in the 80's the two railroads made them upgrade Danville to pick up the slack. Learning to navigate a street with working tracks running through it was a key part of drivers ed back then.
 
I'll add... if you look at the front of the Gorham Savings Bank building at 1 India, the former Grand Trunk baggage claim office, there's a plaque given by the Canadian National railroad commemorating Milepost 0.0 of the Grand Trunk Railroad, and saluting Portland for its role in the development of Canada.

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The questions I have regarding site 2(Union Station Plaza)
1. Concerns regarding the pinch point with shuttle vans from the garage to hospital next to margaritas.
2. Is the station going to be built in the vacant lot aka old rail yard. One way in, one way out for traffic circulation.
3. Or is Union Station Plaza will be partially razed to make way for a new station, if so, what happens to the long-standing businesses? compensation?
4. This is all private property, is the City, NNEPRA going to lease the property, buy? Costs?
5. All this for 5 runs and potentially 6
6. Too much baggage with this station..........
 
PWMFlyer said:
The questions I have regarding site 2(Union Station Plaza)
1. Concerns regarding the pinch point with shuttle vans from the garage to hospital next to margaritas.
2. Is the station going to be built in the vacant lot aka old rail yard. One way in, one way out for traffic circulation.
3. Or is Union Station Plaza will be partially razed to make way for a new station, if so, what happens to the long-standing businesses? compensation?
4. This is all private property, is the City, NNEPRA going to lease the property, buy? Costs?
5. All this for 5 runs and potentially 6
6. Too much baggage with I'm this station........
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Regarding point 4, I believe the actual purchaser/ owner would be Maine DOT.

The rest of your points are well-taken. And given Maine Health's vigorous opposition to putting this on their land in the midst of the hospital expansion overlay zone they fought for, I don't want to see my tax dollars used to fight another doomed legal battle (cf. Midtown and the Sprague Portland Company easement).

One point about one of the comments on the article, regarding the wye back to Congress. The issue with that is, if you reverse the control ends of the train, you need to perform a brake test, which makes the net time savings only 5 minutes. Plus, anyone continuing through Portland is now facing in the opposite direction, and you know they'll forget to take their seat ticket with them if they switch.
 
I truly mean it...Portland deserves better. This is about future-proofing our growth as a region that is on the top of every positive quality of life list circulating around nationally/internationally. accepting immigrants, as well as climate migrants. we have to get transit right to divorce the logic that says 1 new bedroom = 1 new car on Portland/Maine's roads. Updated fantasy map here. I feel strongly that Portland's HS should be repurposed to become the new headhouse of a station that exists with trains running on a RoW under Cumberland. Here is what Denver's Union Station looks like, they talk about it as 'Denver's Living Room'....we should have this here.

I am suggesting this for the following reasons:

1. they already want to combine the high schools for efficiency, truly eminent domain the top of the peninsula lots, combine them with space reclaimed from franklin st realignment, and build a great modern urban high school WITH playing fields that serves the entire city.
2. repurpose the existing HS as an amazing head house, perhaps a boutique hotel
3. replace the parking garage west of the HS with a plaza that connects with monument square for a proper entry into downtown portland for train, bus, and light rail travellers.
4. build an underground train platform for intercity trains underneath Cumberland that connects into the headhouse
5. build a an underground 'bus box' for waiting, ticketing, and transfer servicing intercity and GP metro buses to depart and arrive regardless of weather; the far end toward lancaster St would have easy on/off access to 295
6. all of this investment unlocks further development and investment in the bayside and old port neighborhoods, rezoning should allow for thousands of units of car-free or car-light households in the surrounding area as they have done in Denver
-- any underused, parking, single-floor retail, or industrial use parcel in these neighborhoods should be eligible for affordable housing bonuses, tax benefit financing, to encourage development in this new transit-rich area.


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Denver Union Station was a magnificent reclamation project, but it was a reclamation project reviving a station that already existed. From any photo I've seen, Portland's Union Station was never that grand when it was active, let alone building something like that today with tax dollars. Not to mention, why should a new train station be built as a reception venue? We already have that in Ocean Gateway, and at least that had a different intention when it was constructed.
 
The design is similar to the station in Old Saybrook, CT, population 10,481. The overhead bridge concept does not create a cohesive space dynamic. Portland's will be in an industrial area, so few are walking, especially at night when the 1 AM and then the 1:55 AM event train pulls in. Security? Will it be 24/7? So now its women waiting for an Uber at 2 in the morning by themselves? Bad choice for a station. Portland travels backward on this one. The station should be in the lot near Park Ave. for walkability and safety (and McDonalds and Dunkin').

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Accessibility dictates either a bridge or tunnel. The proximity to the water would make waterproofing the tunnel a concern. I don’t think there is room for a center platform in the ROW, which would also be overkill for the traffic.
 
RandomWalk said:
Accessibility dictates either a bridge or tunnel. The proximity to the water would make waterproofing the tunnel a concern. I don’t think there is room for a center platform in the ROW, which would also be overkill for the traffic.
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Build the station over the tracks with parking underneath. Their proposal compromises the station simply for Brunswick, a low passenger count destination. As is, PTC offers a great dynamic for bus and train travel. Or, put more effort into working with Concord Coach and then only offer one train to Brunswick so the backing up problem is lessened. This new station sits nowhere, a bad addition and message for a growing city like Portland.
 
Another option. There are available lots near Bruno's and it has 3 tracks so that the overhead bridge idea is not necessary. The authority is putting zero effort into this. This area features numerous businesses and it's walking distance of UNE. Their current proposal sucks, and everyone on this blog knows it does. We are traveling backwards with it. And I love the old school theme of the boxing club next door. It's kind of a cool metaphor. You know, Rocky, a fighter.

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TC_zoid said:
Another option. There are available lots near Bruno's and it has 3 tracks so that the overhead bridge idea is not necessary. The authority is putting zero effort into this. This area features numerous businesses and it's walking distance of UNE. Their current proposal sucks, and everyone on this blog knows it does. We are traveling backwards with it. And I love the old school theme of the boxing club next door. It's kind of a cool metaphor. You know, Rocky, a fighter.

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Thank you for making me no longer the only person talking about this location. Considering that the "on-peninsula" portion of the mainline really only goes from the wye by the Veterans Bridge to the overpass over Park Avenue, and the three locations in that stretch are either unworkable, unavailable, or Gotham City, they definitely should be looking here.
Note too, this spot has plenty of room for a station, parking, and TOD should they wish it. No one has even suggested doing anything with that land since Stop & Shop looked at it, and they own Hannaford now so that's not happening.
 
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