Orange Line Extension to Roslindale/West Roxbury

themissinglink

themissinglink

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I'm starting this thread because an Orange Line extension to Roslindale and West Roxbury is frequently discussed here on aB.

www.wbur.org

Orange Line extension to Roslindale attracting attention on Beacon Hill

The Massachusetts House has advanced a plan to study the feasibility of extending the Orange Line into Roslindale. A similar proposal is on the move in the Senate.
www.wbur.org www.wbur.org
The Massachusetts House last week gave initial approval to a resolve to study extending the MBTA's Orange Line south from Jamaica Plain to Roslindale Village, which would bring core train service to parts of Boston that still lack it.
The resolve defines the scope of a feasibility study, building on $100,000 set aside in the state’s $1.3 billion midyear supplemental budget. The bill directs MassDOT to analyze costs, ridership, environmental impacts, funding options and regional equity, with a report due by June 30, 2026.
The funding was included in a spending package that allocated surplus income surtax funds to transportation and education. It marked the first commitment of state funds to analyzing the Orange Line extension concept.
[...]
An identical resolve was filed by Sen. Michael Rush (S 2442), who also represents the area that would be affected. Rush has introduced versions of the proposal since 2021. Senate Transportation Committee members advanced his resolve 7-0 on Monday and his proposal is now before the Senate Ways and Means Committee.
"The extension would provide greater equity and access to public transportation for the neighborhoods I represent and greater access to the neighborhoods, businesses, and attractions to the city at large," Rush said in a statement. Supporters frame the proposal as a response to a longstanding gap in Boston's rapid transit map.
Roslindale and West Roxbury are among the parts of the city not served by subway lines, relying instead on a network of buses and the MBTA's Needham Line commuter rail. While the commuter rail runs through dense neighborhoods within city limits, it comes far less frequently and at a much higher fare than subway service.
Transit advocates argue that converting the existing Needham Line corridor to rapid transit could dramatically improve service without the cost and disruption of building a brand new line.
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Tallguy said:
It has to replace Needham CR. Trying to have their cake and eat it too triples costs
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The challenge is containing the knock-on effects.

If you extend the OL past Roslindale Sq then you need to end Needham Line service, which means extending the OL at least to West Roxbury. But then you have to decide what to do with Needham? Do you leave a light-rail shuttle, do you extend the OL, or do you extend the GL from Newton? The first comes with political problems (taking away a 1SR), the second comes with cost problems (needing to eliminate 4 grade crossings in Needham plus double-track through wetlands), and the third comes with technical problems, needing to add a new GL branch into a central subway that really has 0 room for it. Of course that can be overcome with money but only with the 2nd Central Subway which probably also needs an extension of the Huntington Ave Subway and also also a rebuild of Boylston, so now things have really, really spiraled.
 
Operationally, what would a routine short-turn at Kenmore for one of the GL branches look like? Would it break more than it fixed in a GL-to-Needham world?
 
RandomWalk said:
Operationally, what would a routine short-turn at Kenmore for one of the GL branches look like? Would it break more than it fixed in a GL-to-Needham world?
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You could keep a 6-minute thru frequency on the Highland Branch all-day, fork it in half past Newton Highlands for 12-minute thru frequencies each to Riverside and Needham Jct., then supplement both branches at all peak times with Kenmore short-turns to bring it back to 6-min. overall frequencies each. 6-minute frequencies to the endpoints, every other train runs thru to Downtown. No impact whatsoever to the Central Subway, Needham's service is still all-around spectacularly better than the very best you could ever do with the Commuter Rail mode, and exactly 4 D stations see any sort of (and only "sort of") service degradation while the heavier ridership inner 9 stops see their frequencies effectively doubled by the short-turns. Maybe not even Eliot impacted much, as the City of Newton official proposal specced a Needham Branch stop behind the Aven Apartments on Needham St. that's all of 1500 ft. away from Eliot on the other side of Route 9. As this would only be built after Green Line Transformation is fully implemented the base schedules are going to be a lot more reliable and a little bit faster on average because of the enhanced reliability, so I doubt a 2-seat trip to Downtown every alternating 6-minute frequency is going to present any onerous mobility challenges.

I don't see where building a complete two-pronged rapid transit replacement for Needham CR "spirals" into a Crazy Pitches alt-trunk megaproject. Throttle the short-turns accordingly and Riverside ends up practically with better overall frequencies than today's slop ops are actually delivering.
 
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Would a Needham Green Line branch be signed as the "F" branch? Or would it use the old "A" branch label even though it's not the original A branch being restored?
 
Tallguy said:
It has to replace Needham CR. Trying to have their cake and eat it too triples costs
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Eh...it's a 3-track graded ROW between Forest Hills Yard and Rozzie, so that sharply limits the blowout potential. If it's Orange +1 outright eating the Rozzie CR stop, the only extraneous expenses you're incurring are:
  1. Adding a new CR passing track between 2 of the other neighborhood CR stops to counteract the loss of the FH-Rozzie double-track. But probably only a passing track, and not actually needing to double-up any of the existing platforms.
  2. Some minor reconfiguring of Forest Hills storage yard. Lengthen the northerly 2 tracks along an already-graded land provision so the third tail track + 1 CR track can become the new mainline tracks, and re-interlock the works accordingly so all berths on the storage tracks are accessible to/from a Rozzie deadhead.
If they want to keep the CR stop at Rozzie, then offsetting a single side platform behind the Citizens Bank and muni lot can do the trick without exploding the cost of the more important OL station. But that's probably not needed.
 
themissinglink said:
Would a Needham Green Line branch be signed as the "F" branch? Or would it use the old "A" branch label even though it's not the original A branch being restored?
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"D1" and "D2" would probably be more logical for wayfinding, since the inner 9 stops on the Highland Branch would be the same on any schedule.
 
What’s the temperature of Needham and Newton residents to a Needham branch conversion?
 
RandomWalk said:
What’s the temperature of Needham and Newton residents to a Needham branch conversion?
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Upper Falls residents will chain themselves to their Greenway and fight you back with their leafblowers.

The Upper Falls Greenway was a catastrophe for transit. Basically salted the corridor.
 
It would be great to extend the Orange Line past Forest Hills! Just about every line was given an extention except the Orange Line past Forest Hills, & it's high time that the T start focussing on whether or not this can be done. I've seen the Red Line & the Green Line be given extentions in the past 25 years or so, but never the Orange or Blue Lines. Just talk!! :mad:
 
Jahvon09 said:
It would be great to extend the Orange Line past Forest Hills! Just about every line was given an extention except the Orange Line past Forest Hills, & it's high time that the T start focussing on whether or not this can be done. I've seen the Red Line & the Green Line be given extentions in the past 25 years or so, but never the Orange or Blue Lines. Just talk!! :mad:
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It's been 40 years since Alewife opened, fwiw.

Equilibria said:
Upper Falls residents will chain themselves to their Greenway and fight you back with their leafblowers.

The Upper Falls Greenway was a catastrophe for transit. Basically salted the corridor.
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Is there the width for rail-with-trail? Quick google maps check makes it look pretty wide other than a couple pinch points at the transmission tower and at Oak St
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
"D1" and "D2" would probably be more logical for wayfinding, since the inner 9 stops on the Highland Branch would be the same on any schedule.
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Do a cut-and-cover through Cassidy Playground so Cleveland Circle connects with Chestnut Hill and run the C to Needham.

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This also would also open the door to moving much of the maintenance and layover at the Reservoir Carhouse out to Needham Junction.
 
KCasiglio said:
It's been 40 years since Alewife opened, fwiw.



Is there the width for rail-with-trail? Quick google maps check makes it look pretty wide other than a couple pinch points at the transmission tower and at Oak St
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There is. The issue isn't that you can't do rail-with-trail, it's that the character of the Greenway is woodsy and quiet. A paved trail adjacent to the Green Line would be a completely different vibe - framed as being more for commuters than dog walkers and more for moving through than ambling or gathering.
 
737900er said:
As we've discussed on here before, one of the big benefits of this project is cutting back a lot of bus routes on the Washington Street section and reallocating those bus hours to increased frequency.
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But also don't expect routes like 34[E] or 40 to get cut back to Roslindale Square. Forest Hills is designed as a bus/subway interchange first and foremost and those connections to routes like the 31 and 39 cannot (easily) be made elsewhere, and building a transfer of similar quality at Roslindale Square may not be feasible. Obviously part of any OL extension would be replacing buses 35/36/37 though so their vehicles and drivers could be moved elsewhere.
 
TheRatmeister said:
But also don't expect routes like 34[E] or 40 to get cut back to Roslindale Square. Forest Hills is designed as a bus/subway interchange first and foremost and those connections to routes like the 31 and 39 cannot (easily) be made elsewhere, and building a transfer of similar quality at Roslindale Square may not be feasible. Obviously part of any OL extension would be replacing buses 35/36/37 though so their vehicles and drivers could be moved elsewhere.
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I think the prime candidates to get cut back would be the 30 and 51. Both serve as crosstown/circumferential routes connecting neighborhoods rather than feeder routes, and what little feeding they do in proximity to Forest Hills wouldn't be needed if passengers can transfer at Roslindale Village to the OL.
 
Koopzilla24 said:
I think the prime candidates to get cut back would be the 30 and 51. Both serve as crosstown/circumferential routes connecting neighborhoods rather than feeder routes, and what little feeding they do in proximity to Forest Hills wouldn't be needed if passengers can transfer at Roslindale Village to the OL.
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I think it could end up being just 34, 40, 51 that continues to Forest Hills at 15 minute headway level frequency.
35/36/37 are logical to truncate.
34E is sort of a 225C→ 226 situation as the current route is much too long to begin with.
 
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