Crazy Transit Pitches

[KCasiglio]

On some level, I wonder if their Orange Line Extension AI napkin sketch will hurt the cause of these Councilors. It's so patently ridiculous that it undercuts their credibility in a way that may make "neutrals" find their (other) arguments less convincing.

I've had friends who advocate in different spaces than transportation send the map to me to make fun of it, I think it's a huge gaff. The globe even did a follow up article today specifically on the AI map.

Two Boston city councilors pitched a plan to extend the Orange Line. The map they used was full of AI-generated mistakes. - The Boston Globe

In a statement, the councilors characterized the map as a "conversation starter" that did not detract from the merits of the plan.

www.bostonglobe.com

 

[stick n move]

I really wish the globe explained better why its such a ridiculous proposal. They almost got there, but then it mostly just ended up being about the map being ai and that honestly misses the bigger issues with the proposal imo. Slapdicking something together with ai isnt great and definitely points to how half assed it all was, but it really would have been good to explain why this absolutely 100% will not happen and what would be a couple better options instead.

Also shouldve mentioned the fact that theres like 5 other high priority transit extensions around the city that are already in line and dont have funding, while the bus lanes do, so this would be killing something that is studied and funded just to get in at the back of the line and start waiting for funding to magically appear for all of the projects in front of yours, so they can get built, therefore putting yours to the front of the line and then finally you can try to get the funding for your project… in 35 years if everything goes well.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

I really wish the globe explained better why its such a ridiculous proposal. They almost got there, but then it mostly just ended up being about the map being ai and that honestly misses the bigger issues with the proposal imo. Slapdicking something together with ai isnt great and definitely points to how half assed it all was, but it really would have been good to explain why this absolutely 100% will not happen and what would be a couple better options instead.

Also shouldve mentioned the fact that theres like 5 other high priority transit extensions around the city that are already in line and dont have funding, while the bus lanes do, so this would be killing something that is studied and funded just to get in at the back of the line and start waiting for funding to magically appear for all of the projects in front of yours, so they can get built, therefore putting yours to the front of the line and then finally you can try to get the funding for your project… in 35 years if everything goes well.

The Dorchester Reporter did a somewhat better job asking questions about this than the Glob did. At least when it came to letting the Councillors shoot their own feet off with their own plain-English utterances without fluffing the edges of the surrounding reporting.

“When they did the Big Dig, the most expensive transportation project in the country, nobody said anything about it sounding like a lot of money,” [Culpepper] said. “When they did the extended [Green] Line [in Somerville], nobody said anything about a lot of money. In this case, we want to be treated like everyone else. They find the money when they need it.”

Yeah, Miniard. Absolutely nobody questioned the finances of the Big Dig or GLX before they were built. We just woke up one morning, said "Fuck it, let's do this!", and appropriated the money the next day. No neverending three-decade tortured debates with those two projects!

Holy hell, is he a plain-as-day idiot. Sometimes you just gotta let them talk it all out to show beyond shadow of a doubt that they're not serious people.

 

[Scott]

So, if this is a crazy transit pitch, not on it's merits but because it is too expensive, then so is the Red/ Blue connection, South Coast Rail phase 2, Blue Line to Lynn etc.. right?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

So, if this is a crazy transit pitch, not on it's merits but because it is too expensive, then so is the Red/ Blue connection, South Coast Rail phase 2, Blue Line to Lynn etc.. right?

No, it is pretty crazy on its merits. Because no thought whatsoever was put into the benefits part of cost-benefit, like relative ridership projections, stop sitings, complementary zoning in the neighborhoods, the fact that there are multiple buses on the BHA corridor so trainstituting the 28 doesn't eliminate the purpose-and-need for bus augments. No thought was put into the ops aspects like how exactly you're going to branch Orange in the snug SW Corridor pit, what the downstream effects of frequency reductions to Roxbury and Forest Hills were going to be, and so on. And they aren't even pitching basic funding for a study to refine those aspects...they just said "You built other toys in other neighborhoods..."--[Narrator: "No, they didn't."]--"...so you're racist if you don't build this brand new thing here" dropped as a distraction so they could kill the bus lanes.

There were several very big and fundamental things wrong with this before even getting to the expense part.

 

[Scott]

I agree that they pulled this out their ass because they want to stop the bus, and I believe that they believe that opposing the bus is opposing Wu and that could make them mayor someday. However, the idea of a subway under Blue Hill Ave is merited and not crazy at all

 

[Justbuildit]

“Subway under blue hill Ave” isn’t crazy on its face. Crayoning out the route, senselessly proposing spurs from the orange line with no resolution where the stations will be and then saying the famously scrutinized big dig and GLX didn’t face cost pushbacks really does sound like someone who’s clueless or lying. Of a center running bus lane is bad wait until multiple private properties are seized by eminent domain for new stations.

At this point Wu should give them what they want, which is 100% of nothing. The local representative elected officials have spoken and they’re voting for the status quo.

 

[stick n move]

However, the idea of a subway under Blue Hill Ave is merited and not crazy at all

I dont think anyone is saying rail transit on BHA is crazy. Branching the orange line from ruggles is the non serious part. It would be extremely complex and astronomically expensive if its even possible at all. Also using the orange line would make it multiple times more expensive to build because you would have to either elevate the ROW or tunnel under blue hill ave -which makes up half of the project length and has enough room for surface running tracks. So youd be paying billions extra to (most likely option) tunnel under a perfectly good right of way.

What would be a lot simpler and would probably happen instead if they were absolutely dead set on going from ruggles to BHA would be to build a separate line with a transfer at ruggles. That would be much simpler but again in that case you wouldnt want to use the orange line equipment so you could take advantage of at grade running trains for much of blue hill ave.

*IF they were dead set on branching orange (which then affects other planned branches) and were fine with the costs of tunneling the line all the way to the neoponset river then instead of trying to ram a square peg into a round hole at ruggles they could push the branch 2 stations further up the line to the spot where the old EL branch was/is and this would have the added benefit of adding new service directly through the heart of the south end.

All of this is really complex and needs studies and engineering models and most importantly funding and just tossing something into chatgpt without doing any of the prerequisite work is unserious and obviously aimed at trying to gum up the bus lanes (which are already modeled and funded mind you).

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

*IF they were dead set on branching orange (which then affects other planned branches) and were fine with the costs of tunneling the line all the way to the neoponset river then instead of trying to ram a square peg into a round hole at ruggles they could push the branch 2 stations further up the line to the spot where the old EL branch was/is and this would have the added benefit of adding new service directly through the heart of the south end.

Yeah, pretty much the only practical place to branch Orange is the old Chinatown El split, and even that would be kinda ops-ugly as a flat junction. The SW Corridor is way too snug to fit a junction without blowing up abutting structures and creating lots of operational problems for mainline Orange and the NEC in the process if those tracks need to shift around. So you could more logically pitch it as a Silver Line-replacement subway that extends to Mattapan, but if doing that you're probably going to be looking harder at a Green Line Tremont tunnel hookup where there's 6-minute headways to tap instead of Orange's 4.5 x 2 = 9-mins. The councillors picked Ruggles because this doesn't fit their worldview unless you completely empty the corridor of buses, and the buses all run thru to Ruggles. And, well, a BHA without any buses is wildly unrealistic to begin with when the corridor spider map looks like this:

 

[dhawkins]

This may be heresy on this site but I don't think the North and South stations/heavy commuter rails need to be connected. Although I do believe there should be a direct subway link between the two rail stations and Amtrack should be able to run through downtown. So crazy pitch, extend/ relocate the orange line to South station, have a stop at Aquarium and reconnect at Haymarket. Convert the old orange line tunnels thru downtown to Green line and extend down Washington Street to Dudley. Amtrack would go underground from Back Bay, under the Common and have a large underground station from Bowdoin/Blue line to North Station (Linderman and Tip O'Neil bldgs to be demolished) go under the Charles and off to the North.

 

[TheRatmeister]

This may be heresy on this site but I don't think the North and South stations/heavy commuter rails need to be connected. Although I do believe there should be a direct subway link between the two rail stations and Amtrack should be able to run through downtown. So crazy pitch, extend/ relocate the orange line to South station, have a stop at Aquarium and reconnect at Haymarket. Convert the old orange line tunnels thru downtown to Green line and extend down Washington Street to Dudley. Amtrack would go underground from Back Bay, under the Common and have a large underground station from Bowdoin/Blue line to North Station (Linderman and Tip O'Neil bldgs to be demolished) go under the Charles and off to the North.

View attachment 74472

This seems like more effort than NSRL with worse results.

 

[ritchiew]

This may be heresy on this site but I don't think the North and South stations/heavy commuter rails need to be connected. Although I do believe there should be a direct subway link between the two rail stations and Amtrack should be able to run through downtown. So crazy pitch, extend/ relocate the orange line to South station, have a stop at Aquarium and reconnect at Haymarket. Convert the old orange line tunnels thru downtown to Green line and extend down Washington Street to Dudley. Amtrack would go underground from Back Bay, under the Common and have a large underground station from Bowdoin/Blue line to North Station (Linderman and Tip O'Neil bldgs to be demolished) go under the Charles and off to the North.

View attachment 74472

You gave this some thought, but I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish. What was your thought process? What are the benefits?

I agree with @TheRatmeister here, but I'll elaborate a bit:

• You say you still want a subway between North and South Stations. To be clear, that is effectively what NSRL would be. Fast, electric trains coming by every few minutes running between North and South Stations. The examples to look at would be something like some of the RER lines in Paris or the S-Bahn in some German cities (the Munich S-Bahn is a particularly good example for what Boston's network could look like). The Commuter Rail would look largely the same outside of the city, but it would act like an express subway around downtown.
• I can't tell if you mean the new Amtrak tunnel would be used exclusively for Amtrak or if MBTA commuter rail would use it, too. Neither option makes much sense.
  • If it's just for Amtrak, that would be a very expensive tunnel for relatively few trains. Amtrak ridership in Boston is a tiny fraction that of the Commuter Rail. It'd be an even smaller fraction if we had high quality NSRL. It's just not a lot of Amtrak traffic. South Station only gets a couple Amtrak trains per hour. There have been proposals to run more, but idealistic proposals amount to maybe 6 per hour, max? Most of those Amtrak trains wouldn't even want to use the tunnel because Boston is a logical stopping point for a lot of those services and there is a huge drop off in demand north of the city. That would be a very empty tunnel for a really exorbitant cost. The way to make a downtown tunnel cost effective is to send a huge number of trains though by combining Amtrak and MBTA traffic, like the NSRL plans to. (That might be a few Amtrak trains per hour and few dozen MBTA trains per hour.) Also, having an Amtrak-exclusive tunnel like this wouldn't do anything to fix the growing capacity problems at South Station, but NSRL would.
  • If some MBTA trains would also use that new Amtrak tunnel, that creates other problems. It would mean some trains are skipping South Station, which is the most popular destination with the densest job market in the city. Having one downtown stop at the Linderman is a big step down from the current stop at South Station. (It would also be a huge step down from the NSRL plan of having stops at South Station, Aquarium, and North Station).
• Moving the Orange Line how you drew it would be expensive on the order of just doing NSRL, and runs along a lot of path of NSRL, but would have a fraction of the capacity of the NSRL. It doesn't even add any capacity to Orange Line. I'm not sure what that is supposed to accomplish.
• Extending some light rail to Nubian is a great idea. That could be done other ways, like reusing the existing (abandoned) flying junction south of Boylston Station to head south. Or also converting the Silver Line to light rail and implementing Phase III to extend it past South Station and down to Nubian. Both of those option are expensive, but also both would be a tiny fraction the cost of trying to relocate the Orange Line downtown.
• If we want to demolish the Linderman building for something new, I think we just should. No extra justifications necessary.

Those are some of the biggest problems, as I see them. So where do you see the benefits?