Copper Mill Development | Elm Street and Grove Street | Davis Square

That's essentially the urban renewal mindset: this neighborhood isn't serving the purpose the planners think it could, so let's get rid of everything that makes it special and build something more aligned with our worldview. Density and housing can be achieved just as easily with triple-deckers on a grid, brownstone townhouses, or attractive six-story apartment buildings as it can with towers in a park, as this group well knows.

FWIW, I now live in a 20-story building next to a transit hub in a different metro area - Cambridge is both more urban and more pleasant (and more prosperous), which is why it costs way more to live there.
Nobody on here is advocating for towers in a park, as in the Charles River Park complex. Also, I don't see how a few high rises in Harvard Sq, Porter Sq. or Davis Sq. would denigrate the special quality of those three areas. Kendall Square had no high rises historically, but it certainly does now, and they have only enhanced the area.
 
Nobody on here is advocating for towers in a park, as in the Charles River Park complex. Also, I don't see how a few high rises in Harvard Sq, Porter Sq. or Davis Sq. would denigrate the special quality of those three areas. Kendall Square had no high rises historically, but it certainly does now, and they have only enhanced the area.
When Kendall Square had no high rises, it looked like this:

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I'm sure you'll agree that there's a difference between 1980s Kendall and Davis or Harvard in 2026. FWIW, I'd also argue that Kendall Square has never existed without tall buildings. As that image shows, the Green Building and Eastgate were on one side, and the Volpe Center is under construction in that shot. The genesis of Kendall as a "square" was the construction of Cambridge Center, where the Marriott nears 300'. Buildings above 200' are, I'd argue, the original defining character trait of Kendall.

In 20 years your Burren (which you don't visit btw) will be a Bank of America the way things are going.
I lived in Cambridge until 3 weeks ago, btw. I have, in fact, been to The Burren. Sligo was my after-work hangout. I simply can't believe that you're willing to stand in the middle of Davis or Harvard, places utterly defined by a built form of relatively small buildings which in Harvard stretches back Four Hundred Years, filled with locally-owned small businesses and bustling with diners, shoppers, and residents, and claim that the replacement of much of it with a bunch of Bacon Buildings will improve it. Since you bring it up, the reason I live in a tower is because within a 5-minute walk of this particular transit hub, that's all there is. It is the urban form you want - 300' apartment towers with internal amenities. I had a good reason to move here, but I would take Mid-Cambridge every single day of the week, and the same goes for Harvard and Davis.
 
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Market forces and economic viability for a large project means that society at large (not the limited set of existing tenants) believes that this would be a better use of land than what exists there presently. Prioritizing the form of a historic neighborhood even when that form is no longer fit for purpose given demand is to me an equally illegitimate imposition of aesthetic values.
This is, to the letter, the argument made for tearing down the West End.

Also, what market forces? What economic viability? Davis and Harvard are perfectly viable now, and this joke of a developer couldn't get financing for his tower.
 
I think that definitely makes sense from your perspective but realistically -- there is no law that can bring back Sligo. Was genuinely shocked that people thought it would reopen should the tower be killed. The Burren will be gone eventually. Harvard square is as good as dead in terms of the small quirky storefronts (as has been writen about at length not just on this forum, but in the paper) It's all on its way out. That's what money does, and leaving it to stay won't actually save any of it. I think the actual thing worth preserving is the street layout (which begets density) and the density itself. I have no problem with losing individual buildings.

I think a future where rent is cheap is a goal worth pursing as the #1 goal. The street grid, density, and transit is all relatively immutable and is hard to harm under our current legal regime, so we'll always have that basic fabric. If it were possible to rent a studio for cheap, buy a condo for cheap, rent a storefront for cheap, this would be the best possible future for the city. Like, would you rather live in a Somerville where you pay $1200/mo to live with three roommates and eat a historic bar where drinks are $14, or would you rather live in a studio for $1k/month and eat at a tiny six-seat ramen shop where its $14 all in? I know what I'd rather do. Yea that's pie in a sky thinking but in terms of what our goal for society is it's 100% the latter
 
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How do you avoid creating enclaves where folks can extract the benefits of location without using their resources to opt out of contributing back?
 
I think that definitely makes sense from your perspective but realistically -- there is no law that can bring back Sligo. Was genuinely shocked that people thought it would reopen should the tower be killed. The Burren will be gone eventually. Harvard square is as good as dead in terms of the small quirky storefronts (as has been writen about at length not just on this forum, but in the paper) It's all on its way out. That's what money does, and leaving it to stay won't actually save any of it. I think the actual thing worth preserving is the street layout (which begets density) and the density itself. I have no problem with losing individual buildings.

I think a future where rent is cheap is a goal worth pursing as the #1 goal. The street grid, density, and transit is all relatively immutable and is hard to harm under our current legal regime, so we'll always have that basic fabric. If it were possible to rent a studio for cheap, buy a condo for cheap, rent a storefront for cheap, this would be the best possible future for the city. Like, would you rather live in a Somerville where you pay $1200/mo to live with three roommates and eat a historic bar where drinks are $14, or would you rather live in a studio for $1k/month and eat at a tiny six-seat ramen shop where its $14 all in? I know what I'd rather do. Yea that's pie in a sky thinking but in terms of what our goal for society is it's 100% the latter
I don't think Sligo will come back with the tower dead. I'm not sure it would have survived had the tower never been proposed. Businesses close all the time. But I don't think that encouraging capital to tear down the buildings that house them faster helps anything, same way as I don't think that building more housing means housing automatically gets cheaper.

I've mentioned this before... I don't think Boston gets cheaper gradually as more housing gets built, I think it gets cheaper all at once in a crash, and tons of people with generational wealth, retirement plans, and nest eggs tied up in their property lose their shirts. As far as big landlords go - every project needs financing, and every developer promises sky-high Boston/Cambridge/Somerville rents as part of their loan terms. They don't (and can't) freely compete on price, and with COL where it is no landlord or developer will ever want to be the first one to give money away by charging less - they'll all need to be made to change their behavior at once. That either happens through government-set price caps or it happens through a market correction.

There's also the question of desirability. It's real cheap to live in places no one wants to live. I don't think people in depopulating rust belt cities would think long before switching places with Boston (even as Boston is depopulating too).
 
I've mentioned this before... I don't think Boston gets cheaper gradually as more housing gets built, I think it gets cheaper all at once in a crash, and tons of people with generational wealth, retirement plans, and nest eggs tied up in their property lose their shirts. As far as big landlords go - every project needs financing, and every developer promises sky-high Boston/Cambridge/Somerville rents as part of their loan terms. They don't (and can't) freely compete on price, and with COL where it is no landlord or developer will ever want to be the first one to give money away by charging less - they'll all need to be made to change their behavior at once. That either happens through government-set price caps or it happens through a market correction.

There's also the question of desirability. It's real cheap to live in places no one wants to live. I don't think people in depopulating rust belt cities would think long before switching places with Boston (even as Boston is depopulating too).
Truth to this, as much as it would hurt everyone, a severe economic disruption is a very effective way (and possibly, the only way) to dislodge the concentration of wealth from the deathgrip it's in. Thoman Picketty writes quite a lot the destruction of fortunes in WWI and WW2 and shows how that was really what led to what sadly is, or was, and aberration we saw in the mid 20th century, where there was actually a much greater equality of distribution of money. By the 80s things were headed back to the way they were before the wars, and here we are.
 
This is, to the letter, the argument made for tearing down the West End.

Also, what market forces? What economic viability? Davis and Harvard are perfectly viable now, and this joke of a developer couldn't get financing for his tower.
Whatever their argument was, what I don't support is wholesale government neighborhood planning or single corporate master plans that cater to a small number of peoples' aesthetic-ideological preferences that will be preserved forever. It is precisely because many developers do stupid shit (maybe including this "joke" of a developer who knows) that I support continuous redevelopment by many different actors over time. Any individual plan is liable to be mismatched to demand while a gradual continuous process can be self corrective.

Viable means what the market supports lol, and the entire reason to defer to market tastes is because they reflect what people want in actuality not what they claim to want. All these beautiful and quirky shops in Harvard square for instance wouldn't have closed if they were the retail that best suited the present times, present location and present population. Plenty of people will say they liked it the way it was, but were there enough of them and did they go frequently enough and did they spend high enough margins at those shops? Evidently not. Same with beautiful quaint triple deckers and horrendously ugly 5-over-1s, people might vocally say they like the small scale detached buildings, but you can observe revealed preferences of most people (who are tapped out of this discussion) when they are willing to spend a considerable premium on a newer apartment.

I'm sure you'll agree that there's a difference between 1980s Kendall and Davis or Harvard in 2026. FWIW, I'd also argue that Kendall Square has never existed without tall buildings. As that image shows, the Green Building and Eastgate were on one side, and the Volpe Center is under construction in that shot. The genesis of Kendall as a "square" was the construction of Cambridge Center, where the Marriott nears 300'. Buildings above 200' are, I'd argue, the original defining character trait of Kendall.

I lived in Cambridge until 3 weeks ago, btw. I have, in fact, been to The Burren. Sligo was my after-work hangout. I simply can't believe that you're willing to stand in the middle of Davis or Harvard, places utterly defined by a built form of relatively small buildings which in Harvard stretches back Four Hundred Years, filled with locally-owned small businesses and bustling with diners, shoppers, and residents, and claim that the replacement of much of it with a bunch of Bacon Buildings will improve it. Since you bring it up, the reason I live in a tower is because within a 5-minute walk of this particular transit hub, that's all there is. It is the urban form you want - 300' apartment towers with internal amenities. I had a good reason to move here, but I would take Mid-Cambridge every single day of the week, and the same goes for Harvard and Davis.
I don't think the original character of a neighborhood should be given that much priority ngl, the way things are reflect what was demanded at time of construction but doesn't necessarily imply anything about what is demanded now. Your overwhelming preference for small shops and diners is shared by some (including me!), but evidenced by their lack of competitiveness with global chains, is not shared by all or necessarily even most as weird as that sounds.
 
Viable means what the market supports lol, and the entire reason to defer to market tastes is because they reflect what people want in actuality not what they claim to want. All these beautiful and quirky shops in Harvard square for instance wouldn't have closed if they were the retail that best suited the present times, present location and present population. Plenty of people will say they liked it the way it was, but were there enough of them and did they go frequently enough and did they spend high enough margins at those shops? Evidently not. Same with beautiful quaint triple deckers and horrendously ugly 5-over-1s, people might vocally say they like the small scale detached buildings, but you can observe revealed preferences of most people (who are tapped out of this discussion) when they are willing to spend a considerable premium on a newer apartment.
I wish that were the world we lived in, actually. I think the "market" that matters is made up of billionaires, not humans. No one actually wants another branch of Silicon Valley Bank, but their private equity owners will pay more than the beloved card shop, so there you go. The infinite size of private equity funds and personal wealth of a tiny number of corrupt people has broken the system completely.

Truth to this, as much as it would hurt everyone, a severe economic disruption is a very effective way (and possibly, the only way) to dislodge the concentration of wealth from the deathgrip it's in. Thoman Picketty writes quite a lot the destruction of fortunes in WWI and WW2 and shows how that was really what led to what sadly is, or was, and aberration we saw in the mid 20th century, where there was actually a much greater equality of distribution of money. By the 80s things were headed back to the way they were before the wars, and here we are.
There's a simple math to this. Google search says the MSA currently has about 2 million households/housing units. Per another Google search, Zillow says the average home in the MSA costs $800K, average condo $600K (every apartment is a condo owned by somebody). Let's say that "affordable" to us means half that. 58% of MSA households are single-family housing, 42% are multifamily.

That comes out to $1.4B in total housing value, and we want to eliminate half. These are sketch numbers, but affordable housing in Boston fundamentally means eliminating hundreds of billions of dollars of wealth from somebody. Either the Government makes that up somehow, or property-owning residents take a huge hit. There's no other way to do it.

There's also the problem of what happens next - people buying property would need to understand that it will only appreciate with inflation and no more - to keep housing affordable, it cannot be seen as an investment or an appreciating asset, which in the US would be a seismic cultural change. You can try to build your way out of this, but the property-owners will always try to stop you from building enough to prevent their own assets from appreciating, and you will fail.

You can fix this in a particular city by having the local market/economy crash. We saw a hint of what this would look like on a national scale in 2008, and it broke our country - broad loss of faith in the entire system.

This all belongs on a different thread, but interestingly, the Bible had a brilliant idea with all property reverting to original owners every 50 years - people 2,500 years ago understood all of this, too.
 
I think it gets cheaper all at once in a crash, and tons of people with generational wealth, retirement plans, and nest eggs tied up in their property lose their shirts
I mean that would be incredibly based, right? When people say they want stuff to be significantly cheaper it specifically requires that. Someone has to hold the bag. And everyone will be smug and say, "I don't know why that guy paid $1m for a condo that's falling apart!" when really, we wished we were that guy a year ago, we just didn't have enough cash.

I think a lot of the people who complain about high property taxes re: their very expensive house being their entire net worth often say they have no interest in leaving or selling their house. Okay, then stay and don't complain about resale price.

But yeah, the more our drooling president tweets us into oblivion / the worse I feel about America's future the better I feel about my chances to buy a home. But at the same time, might just have to move to Montreal or something if it gets really bad.
 
Market forces and economic viability for a large project means that society at large (not the limited set of existing tenants) believes that this would be a better use of land than what exists there presently.

At least in this case, doesn’t the existence of surface lots in every cardinal direction from site, where housing and businesses could be built without tearing down one of the most active retail stretches in Camberville, prove that market forces and economic viability are not in alignment with the community’s preference for land-use?

If a developer proposed demolishing Trinity Church and replacing it with a 5-over-1 saying “this is just what makes sense financially right now” we wouldn’t just go “ah well I guess that’s the better use of the land, go ahead” we’d say “that’s bullshit”.
 
I simply can't believe that you're willing to stand in the middle of Davis or Harvard, places utterly defined by a built form of relatively small buildings which in Harvard stretches back Four Hundred Years, filled with locally-owned small businesses and bustling with diners, shoppers, and residents, and claim that the replacement of much of it with a bunch of Bacon Buildings will improve it.
Harvard Square already has high rises nearby (see below). Also, trying to keep a neighborhood (Harvard Sq or Davis Sq) just like it was 400 years ago is neither possible nor desirable.

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