Franklin Park - White Stadium Renovation

[Scott]

Wait - you gave me a pop quiz and I obliged and listed 4 reasons - - and then you respond with THAT?

But there it is, right there in your moving the goalposts response.

That’s the Tommy Finneran line. The 1990’s was all Tom Finneran vs. Bob Kraft. Question: Who ended up providing greater benefit to Massachusetts? (And when did Finneran get out of jail?)

An unprecedented 6 Super Bowls for a franchise and region that never had one before him….a privately funded state of the art stadium on freaking Route 1 in Foxboro…..the only team in the NFL (aside from the publicly owned Packers) that didn’t soak its fans for Private Seats Licenses. And now the Gift Horse arrives again to offer a privately funded state of the art 25,000 stadium while privately paying the tab the state was facing for cleaning up the Brownfields on a part of the Mystic Riverfront and thus flipping the switch on a new economic dynamism.

But your post is illustrative - Go ahead and trade the ownership of the New England Patriots and their track record for community stewardship for what we have already seen of the Boston Legacy FC ownership over their first 18 months. That’s the recipe for success!

It is gradually shrinking, but that trope of Tom Finneran curmudgeon thinking,always looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth, is endemic to the area. It’s part of the character, and historically, has held greater Boston down. But things are changing - the Big Dig DID eventually get built and has benefited Boston’s economy and competitive standing (even more Important today, with a President hellbent on destroying Boston’s economy) despite the naysayers - and ironically, Mayor Wu (who I think is overall excellent for the City) is part of that change away from that mentality.

Keep looking Gift Horses in the Mouth. I’m done posting about this for now - we’re going in circles at this time and are at the point of diminishing returns. But this development will be (sadly) interesting to watch - I hope the fallout for the City and the Franchise will be as minimal as possible. As the Old Zen Master said “We’ll see”.

I asked what you were basing this on. There must be data on either claim, that they will fail in 3 to 5 years or that they will outgrow White Stadium in 10 years. You did flip flop on that one

 

[shmessy]

I asked what you were basing this on. There must be data on either claim, that they will fail in 3 to 5 years or that they will outgrow White Stadium in 10 years. You did flip flop on that one

I respect you have a different opinion. Samsongam is giving me a far more informative and reasoned discussion on the matter than merely website “gotcha” arguments.

As I noted all along - the proof will be in the pudding - we will see. I fervently hope I’m wrong, because if not, this would be a large economic opportunity missed for small-sized thinking.

 

[themissinglink]

Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court takes up White Stadium lawsuit - The Boston Globe

The nonprofit and residents who sued to stop the project previously moved to appeal a Superior Court judge's ruling against them in the case.

www.bostonglobe.com

 

[real_EthanHunt]

Having your own stadium has been shown to be the greatest marker for investor success
They are paying a lot of rent
they have limited sponsorship and revenue opportunities

this is a waste of time to continue to discuss until people (person?) acknowledge that this trumps everything else when it comes to a sports franchise making money.
Playing in a 25K seat stadium when your only revenue is from selling seats, while not likely not filling anywhere near close to those 25K seats is not an answer.
paying rent, not making money on concessions, not making money on sponsorships. its not even a discussion as to which one is more profitable.

 

[SteelyTom]

"Only revenue is from selling seats"? NWSL has a lucrative media rights deal with ABC/ESPN.

 

[real_EthanHunt]

seriously? that revenue is constant regardless of where they are playing.
not part of the equation of which is in the teams best interest to play in their own stadium or not.

 

[mssrro]

1/10

 

[Wonk]

Any update on budget or schedule? The team is still indicating 2027 but by the photos that doesn't seem possible. Assume everything is on hold pending the SJC outcome? That said, compared to the Lexington HS replacement budget this thing is a bargain!

 

[JumboBuc]

Any update on budget or schedule? The team is still indicating 2027 but by the photos that doesn't seem possible. Assume everything is on hold pending the SJC outcome? That said, compared to the Lexington HS replacement budget this thing is a bargain!

Yeah, the 2027 season is only 14 months away, so I think it's pretty safe to say that this stadium won't be ready for the Legacy by then.

 

[Scott]

Yeah, the 2027 season is only 14 months away, so I think it's pretty safe to say that this stadium won't be ready for the Legacy by then.

Do you know something we don't?

 

[Jeremi]

Do you know something we don't?

That construction takes quite a long time?

 

[Scott]

How long in your expert opinion(s)?

 

[Jeremi]

How long in your expert opinion(s)?

A project like this is going to be about 18 months in construction time, not counting the demolition phase which has already occurred. That’s if they start building by today, which isn’t happening. At this rate, they’ll have to hustle to get the project done by the 2027 season kickoff.

 

[Scott]

A project like this is going to be about 18 months in construction time, not counting the demolition phase which has already occurred. That’s if they start building by today, which isn’t happening. At this rate, they’ll have to hustle to get the project done by the 2027 season kickoff.

Okay, but the city web site says they are doing foundation work but I do want to know as much as the next guy because I am an avid supporter. My first reaction was lukewarm but the lease is there for all to see and I believe the risk is worth the reward particularly because the city has $100M in escrow if Legacy walks away. My question to you is, what happens if they don't meet their own deadline?

 

[Jeremi]

Okay, but the city web site says they are doing foundation work but I do want to know as much as the next guy because I am an avid supporter. My first reaction was lukewarm but the lease is there for all to see and I believe the risk is worth the reward particularly because the city has $100M in escrow if Legacy walks away. My question to you is, what happens if they don't meet their own deadline?

I think this is a pretty good project and I do support the Legacy, particularly their swan iconography. But I’ve seen no proof of anyone actually doing any work on site - has anyone?

If the deadlines are blown because of nuisance lawsuits, then there’s not really any liability on the team’s part. It’s not like the city is going to blow up the contract. The dates will get changed, contracts rewritten to account for inflation, etc.

 

[Wonk]

White Stadium project to cost taxpayers $135 Million

 

[as02155]

White Stadium project to cost taxpayers $135 Million

Yikes.

 

[MrDee12345]

 

[JumboBuc]

White Stadium project to cost taxpayers $135 Million

The overhaul of White Stadium is now projected to total more than $325 million, with about $190 million of that coming from the new professional women’s soccer team, Boston Legacy FC, that will share the facility with the city’s school sports teams.

I know it's easy to have your eyes glaze over once a number gets up to 9 figures, but $325 million for a stadium like this is absolutely insane.

For refence, CPKC Stadium in Kansas City -- the latest NWSL stadium to open -- cost less than half of that at $140 million. The Bay Area's pro soccer stadium cost $100 million 10 years ago. Look at the roster of pro soccer stadiums in the country and this one'll be a HUGE outlier.

 

[samsongam]

I know it's easy to have your eyes glaze over once a number gets up to 9 figures, but $325 million for a stadium like this is absolutely insane.

For refence, CPKC Stadium in Kansas City -- the latest NWSL stadium to open -- cost less than half of that at $140 million. The Bay Area's pro soccer stadium cost $100 million 10 years ago. Look at the roster of pro soccer stadiums in the country and this one'll be a HUGE outlier.

I agree that it is a shocking amount for a smaller stadium but I'm not sure whether it is a HUGE outlier at all. There are a number of things that separate this stadium from CPKC stadium for instance.

1. It's being built almost as 2 stadiums on the parcel of one. Aside from the seating, field, and press box the city and the team has separate needs and separate resources to pay for influenced by various shareholders and the community. Separate locker rooms, separate storage, separate administration, separate medicine and fitness facilities, separate lounge space. Without the partnership you can save costs on all those things. A whole lot more is being packed into the space than what would be necessary for a purely NWSL or BPS stadium. I think that's why you have to look at each of the $135 and $195 almost as separate stadiums. That's also why the improvements paid for by the team but accessible to the public such as maintenance, the grove, paths/lighting around the stadium, and all of the funding/community benefits make a huge difference to the costs the city will incur over the next 15 years. If you ignore the costs of the NWSL half ($195M) and just take the money the city is spending on the stadium minus the maintenance and benefit package from BUSP that's $70M net in 15 years.

2. The price of steel and construction has gone way up in the past few years since COVID and the Trump administration.

3. I think most importantly, this stadium is in Boston and everything in our VHCOL city is way more expensive. I don't think you can get around that. If you compare it to soccer-specific stadiums built since COVID, it is firmly on the high end but definitely not an outlier compared to HCOL city peers. I also anticipate the cost of the Everett site will go up significantly when we actually get to construction in a few years.

Stadium	City	City Center	Cost per Seat	Seats	Cost (M)	COL Tier	Year
Etihad Park	New York, NY	11.2 miles	$31,200	25,000	$780	VHCOL	2027
White Stadium	Boston, MA	3.1 miles	$29,545	11,000	$325	VHCOL	2027
Chicago Fire Stadium	Chicago, IL	1.8 miles	$29,545	22,000	$650	HCOL	2028
Everett/Mystic Site	Everett, MA	2.2 miles	$20,833	24,000	$500	VHCOL	NA
CityPark	St. Louis, MO	1.5 miles	$20,425	22,423	$458	LCOL	2022
Lower.com Field	Columbus, OH	1.1 miles	$15,414	20,371	$314	LCOL	2021
Miami Freedom Park	Miami, FL	6.5 miles	$14,000	25,000	$350	VHCOL	2026
Q2 Stadium	Austin, TX	11.3 miles	$12,537	20,738	$260	HCOL	2021
Geodis Park	Nashville, TN	2.5 miles	$11,126	30,109	$335	HCOL	2022
CPKC Stadium	Kansas City, MO	2.0 miles	$10,435	11,500	$120	LCOL	2024
TQL Stadium	Cincinnati, OH	1.2 miles	$9,615	26,000	$250	LCOL	2021

If you take the costs that each party is paying for the stadium separately while still having full amenities then each party is performing much closer to a LCOL city comparison. And if you consider the benefit packages as well as the cost of maintenance, then Boston would be bottom of this list by far.