24 Hour Gyms -> vibrancy?

Why is it that whenever there is a perceived problem we regulate it out of existence rather than dealing with the actual infringements?.

1. The state has a streak of believing in the power of big government and laws being solution to everything.

2. At the time the Boston Police were very corrupt and city council I believed saw an outright ban as the only way to curb what was getting out of hand. The same is true for the liquor licensing scheme. Law enforcement couldn't be counted on to keep establishments in line, so legislators decides to limit the number of establishments as a means of containing a problem.
 
1. The state has a streak of believing in the power of big government and laws being solution to everything.

2. At the time the Boston Police were very corrupt and city council I believed saw an outright ban as the only way to curb what was getting out of hand. The same is true for the liquor licensing scheme. Law enforcement couldn't be counted on to keep establishments in line, so legislators decides to limit the number of establishments as a means of containing a problem.

Lurk -- even a place whose motto is "Live Free or Die" regulates things -- sometimes more, sometimes less than Massachusetts

MA -- you can buy liquor in stores run by individuals whose hours are set by local communities
NH -- State Liquor Stores have monopoly on sales of liquor -- though not beer or wine

MA, NH, ..... -- No one can consume alcoholic bevarages on a public throrougfare
N.O. -- Hev anotha Hurcane.brutha.. Laissez les bons temps rouler!
 
I know I was slightly incredulous earlier in this thread about who would go to a gym at 3 am - I've re-evaluated my position and found that my incredulity comes in large part from "why have this gym open when everything around it is closed?"

The answer is to end the institutional curfew across the board. Convert the T to run 24 hours and convert as many shops/gyms/other places to run 24 hours too.

This actually helps curb illegal activity - good men will do bad things when you give them no option other than to do wrong, or continually punish the right behavior while encouraging the wrong one. You shut down everything after a certain time - what do the criminal enterprises care? They're already breaking other laws, just stay open and keep on trucking. Meanwhile upstanding citizens who are otherwise on the right side of the law are pushed into these criminal institutions because they have no other choices.

Given the choice between a seedy looking joint that may or may not be catering to the Secret Service, or a franchise location you know and trust - who other than the Secret Service is going to take option A? It's only when you muscle out Option B that Option A benefits.
 
Convert the T to run 24 hours

You can't. Not without investing billions of dollars for express tunnels/third tracking. The T closes early for maintenance purposes. Our system doesn't have 3rd tracking like the MTA does, and can't divert trains to other tracks while others are having work done, so they need to be closed during late night so that the tracks and cars can be maintained for the morning commute.
 
You can't. Not without investing billions of dollars for express tunnels/third tracking. The T closes early for maintenance purposes. Our system doesn't have 3rd tracking like the MTA does, and can't divert trains to other tracks while others are having work done, so they need to be closed during late night so that the tracks and cars can be maintained for the morning commute.

Then you invest the billions of dollars - either right now, or later when the demand for it becomes too great to ignore. (If I were running the show, I'd try to get out in front of this as much as possible instead of trying to leave someone else holding the bag on this.)

You can't run a 24-hour business with half(?) the means of getting people to your business offline for nearly a quarter of the day. You can't run a 24-hour city with your public transit network crippled like that.

And no, late night buses are not an acceptable replacement. At best, they're a band-aid solution while we find the money for Big Dig 2.0.
 
I agree with you. I'd love 24hr T service, but the state won't even spend money on court mandated expansions. They will certainly never invest the funds to 24/7 the existing subway. The city government in Boston doesn't want it to be a 24 hour city and until the citizens of Boston elect people who want to change that, it will continue to be shuttered late at night.
 
You don't need 3-4 tracks for overnight service, it's just a convenience. Many NYC subway tunnels, the PATH, and the Red and Blue of Chicago's "L" run 24 hours with two tracks. One way to do it is to use single-tracking late at night, when long headways are acceptable.

But frankly, I don't think there's anything wrong with late night "owl" bus service. San Francisco has a similar type of system and uses Night Owl routes to great success.
 
Then you invest the billions of dollars - either right now, or later when the demand for it becomes too great to ignore. (If I were running the show, I'd try to get out in front of this as much as possible instead of trying to leave someone else holding the bag on this.)

You can't run a 24-hour business with half(?) the means of getting people to your business offline for nearly a quarter of the day. You can't run a 24-hour city with your public transit network crippled like that.

And no, late night buses are not an acceptable replacement. At best, they're a band-aid solution while we find the money for Big Dig 2.0.

Commute -- I know you find it hard to believe -- But the majority of the business in any city is conducted during what we coloquially call business hours -- there is even an acronym with a fairly universal translation:
COB ==5:00 PM local civil time M, T, w, Th, Fri -- thus the COB in Boston most recently was Fri, May, 18 2012 5:00:00 PM EDT the next COB Boston will be ?? (left to the reader as an exercise)

If I told an associate in London (clearly a global 24x7 city) today (not a normal business day in the Western World) that a document was due Monday COB Boston -- he'd be able to translate it into BST without error. The only place I ever have trouble is India with their odd 1/2 hour offset.

As a result of the above -- with the exception of independent contractors, consultants, artistists, philosophers, particle physicists, astronomers (the list is long but finite) the majority of commuters into a city leave @ COB +/- 1 hour or so. Even in the Pentagon most of the commuters leave during the normal rush hour -- with the term skeleton staff describing who is up all night minding the shop.

Note that the primary reason for the T is to take commuters from their residential neighborhoods into and out of the Central Business Districts:

1) Cambridge roughly in a strip along Mass Ave from Harvard to Kendall with Alewife & Leachmere
2) Boston Financial District, DTX
3) SPID
4) Logan
5) Longwood
6) Back Bay along Boyston & Newbury
7) Kenmore / BU
8) Huntington Ave corridor to Heath St.
9) Charles / MGH
10) Government Center

So -- no one ever will spend the B$s necessary to widen tunnels to add parallel tracks soley to accomodate "Night Owls" -- perhaps they will spend the $ -- but only for a different much more compelling reason to the vast majority of the public.


By the way the Tube closes about the same hours as Boston:

from te wikipedia article:
The Underground does not run 24 hours a day (except at New Year and major public events – such as the Queen's Golden Jubilee in 2002 and the Opening and Closing Ceremonies of the London Olympics in 2012) because most lines have only two tracks (one in each direction) and therefore need to close at night for cleaning and planned maintenance work. First trains start operating from approximately 04:45, generally for shorter journeys such as the Piccadilly line's Osterley-Heathrow only rather than the full length of the line, with the remainder operating by 05:30, running until around 01:00. Unlike systems such as the New York City Subway, few segments of the Underground have third or fourth tracks that allow trains to be routed around maintenance sites. Recently, greater use has been made of weekend closures of parts of the system for scheduled engineering work. Also, the Underground runs limited service on Christmas Eve (with some lines closing early) and does not operate on Christmas Day, except for the shuttle to Heathrow Airport. A limited service is provided on Boxing Day.
 
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You don't need 3-4 tracks for overnight service, it's just a convenience. Many NYC subway tunnels, the PATH, and the Red and Blue of Chicago's "L" run 24 hours with two tracks. One way to do it is to use single-tracking late at night, when long headways are acceptable.

But frankly, I don't think there's anything wrong with late night "owl" bus service. San Francisco has a similar type of system and uses Night Owl routes to great success.

Some NYC subways do true, and you can do it, but then you have situations like the 'L' train being offline on most weekends for maintenance. Oftentimes at least one line on MTA subways will be down at night (i.e. the NQR won't have 'Q' service or whatever) while it's undergoing maintenance. You can do it with reduced headways and single track, but it's at the mercy of that one tracking if anything goes wrong.

I agree that a late night Moonliner or Night Owl (or whatever you want to call it) bus service on late nights would be great for this city. The Taxis make a killing on the bars closing an hour and a half after the T stops (IIRC Boston cabs are among the most expensive in the country -- certainly much more expensive than NYC). A little competition from public transit would do some good.

Here's a map I made up a while ago hypothesizing some bus routes based on hubs at North Station, South Station, Government Center and Kenmore Square connected by a loop route. Figured they'd run between the half hour or every hour and a half depending on the route. They'd start around 12:30 and end at say, 5am.

http://g.co/maps/yay4p

Anyway, a little off topic of 24 hour gyms, but it seems like any discussion on why there aren't more late night services in Boston will inevitably turn into a discussion on Boston's early bed time in general.
 
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Was there supposed to be a map attached?

I've been kicking around an idea for a project of trying to identify what night bus routes, service span and headways might cost and trying to minimize that, while generating enough ridership to gain significant revenue. It doesn't need to be MBTA either, there's no technical reason a private company couldn't do it, but there are probably some political obstacles...
 
Edited it in.

Right. I didn't do any sort of heavy thought on the economics of any of those routes, just connected different hubs with various outlying areas.
 
I think it may be worthwhile to consider consolidating the hubs into one, at a spot with enough room for many buses to line up at night. The rail system doesn't have this, but there's nothing keeping the buses from doing it, especially since the streets are quiet at night.

In order to keep down costs, we would have to cut headways down to the bare minimum. But people won't ride if they have to stand around at 3am waiting for a transfer that may be an hour away. So it would have to be a system of timed transfers that operates with a pulse, maybe once an hour.

With a radial system, a pulse means that all the buses are timed to arrive at the central hub and wait for each other. Then all the passengers can transfer where they need to go, and the buses go on their way.
 
Ok, here's a sketch of what I was thinking. I based the routes on ~40 minutes of driving (out and back). They all come together at Gov't Center for a timed transfer "pulse."

http://g.co/maps/y8tjw
 
BERy & the MTA ran 24 hour service until the 1960s. The port prior to container shipping, rail freight, and 3 shift industry in the city kept enough people working around the clock to justify it.
 
24 hour service doesn't require prohibitively expensive triple tracking or anything like that. All it really needs is one or two trains in each direction per hour at night. Headways can be pathetic... so long as the stations are open and safe, and you know that a train will eventually be coming. It also doesn't need to be all week long either. Just have it Thursday-Friday. Or something to that effect....




True 24/7 service can't happen until there are enough people actually working those hours.... Which means that last call hours, and other businesses have to be open later....

Chicken and egg.
 
I think two routes would be a good start (serving mostly students, I guess)

Line A:
Tufts -> Davis -> Porter then Mass Ave until Huntington, then down Huntington and then following the E line (old route) to Forest Hills

Line B:

BC -> Follow B line (except maybe a detour to Union Square) -> Mass Ave -> Boylston -> South Station - > Hay Market -> Airport



The two would meet by Hynes.

This wouldn't serve Southie or Dorchester at all though.... Maybe add a line going down Dot avenue -> South Station -> Haymarket -> North Station -> Lechmere -> Union Square -> Davis...
 
Ok, here's a sketch of what I was thinking. I based the routes on ~40 minutes of driving (out and back). They all come together at Gov't Center for a timed transfer "pulse."

http://g.co/maps/y8tjw

I like this a lot -- reminds me of Madrid's Buho (night bus) system. All routes converge at the centrally-located Plaza de Cibeles hub, complete with coordinated arrival/departure banks every 30-45 minutes. It was the perfect bridge between the Metro closing at 1:30AM and reopening at 6AM.

One question about the particular routes you chose: why send a bus via Storrow? Seems like wasted potential for picking up passengers along the way. Maybe Boylston (inbound) and Beacon (outbound) would work instead?
 
Ok, here's a sketch of what I was thinking. I based the routes on ~40 minutes of driving (out and back). They all come together at Gov't Center for a timed transfer "pulse."

http://g.co/maps/y8tjw

Looks good. You don't think they should hit any of the Park and Rides? Also, can busses even go down Storrow Drive?
 
I like this a lot -- reminds me of Madrid's Buho (night bus) system. All routes converge at the centrally-located Plaza de Cibeles hub, complete with coordinated arrival/departure banks every 30-45 minutes. It was the perfect bridge between the Metro closing at 1:30AM and reopening at 6AM.

One question about the particular routes you chose: why send a bus via Storrow? Seems like wasted potential for picking up passengers along the way. Maybe Boylston (inbound) and Beacon (outbound) would work instead?

I never did get a chance to ride Buho, I was always too jetlagged to stay up that late. But it is a common technique to make low frequency systems tolerable.

As for Storrow, chalk that up to Google's editing interface being balky. I was really surprised how much trouble it gave me. I actually had to give up using Chrome, it was so buggy, and switch to Firefox. First time. Fixed.

Park'n'rides are mostly for commuters. I don't know, they're also a bit too far out in most cases. I would need to use faster roads or highways to reach them. Not sure they're worth it.
 

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