Ar things Changing

[Java King]

I try to take the Commuter Rail into Boston whenever I can. Parking is 4 bucks at the T lot and the round-trip fare is $13.00. So, it's way more expensive to spend $17.00 rather than just drive on the weekend and find a free or inexpensive place to park, plus you have more freedom in your schedule. However, I find it healthier to walk more and you don't have to worry about driving if you had a cocktail or two in the city. The 10pm last train on Friday and 11pm last train on Saturday is simply ridiculous and unnacceptable, though. I've almost missed that last train on more than one occasion.

 

[saulblum]

Re: Are things Changing

Saul -- people coming for a weekend event as opposed to commuters make this calculation:

T or no T = a*Convenience + b*Cost
1) Convenience
2) Cost

the two weighting factors a and b depend on externals such as what might be convenient in summer (4 block walk) might be very unpleasant in mid winter or when carrying a lot of packages

Cost is dependent on parking for both the T and the end purpose although you can also walk or bike or take the bus to the T -- see convenience

The problem for the T on weekends is that:
1) there are a lot of spaces in downtown garages which are available
2) weekend downtown parking is not much more expensive than the T parking at Alewife and certainly < Alewife + 2 T round trips

No amount of improving the schedule of the commuter rail will influence that computation for the people to the Northwest of Boston

If I was the T -- and interested in boosting revenues -- I'd go after the suburbanites on weekends:

1) cut the cost to parking in Alewife to $1 for 6 hours and $2.50 all day at Alewife on Saturdays and Sundays
2) get rid of the people in the booths replacing them by Charlie Card readers
3) give people a discount on the T fare - say $1.25

that difference of T mode = $13.80 versus driving mode = $14 (parking for 6 hrs at MFA as members)
changes to T+ mode = $7.50 is enough to flip the switch in favor of the T

I agree with you completely. Sounds like we're in a similar situation, except Riverside is the nearest rapid transit stop for us, instead of Alewife. We have a similar cost calculation. If I were a daily commuter and already had a pass, then that would more heavily favor taking the T on the weekend. But I use the T around twice a week, so I have a regular stored value CharlieCard.

In some other systems, such as the DC Metro, parking is free on weekends in Metro-operated garages and lots.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

I try to take the Commuter Rail into Boston whenever I can. Parking is 4 bucks at the T lot and the round-trip fare is $13.00. So, it's way more expensive to spend $17.00 rather than just drive on the weekend and find a free or inexpensive place to park, plus you have more freedom in your schedule. However, I find it healthier to walk more and you don't have to worry about driving if you had a cocktail or two in the city. The 10pm last train on Friday and 11pm last train on Saturday is simply ridiculous and unnacceptable, though. I've almost missed that last train on more than one occasion.

I feel the need to also point out that (though being as I'm not quite 21 yet and therefore can't and don't drink, I'm not 100% certain on which of these it is) MA law requires either no alcohol to be served after 2 am or for all bars/venues serving alcohol to close by 2 am.

Either way, if you've had a good time on the town and now you're slightly tipsy (or worse), come closing time your options are roll the dice on a taxi, roll the dice on walking home (if your home is close enough), or roll the dice on driving while inebriated (please, please, please, please, PLEASE don't even consider doing this - this is dumb and only idiots drive drunk), because the MBTA stops all service between 12:45 and 5:15 AM, give or take an hour depending on route and station of choice.

Note that all of those options involve some level of risk that wouldn't be completely eliminated but would certainly be drastically reduced in the case of my hypothetical fourth option: switch to 24 hour, 5 - 3:30 or even just 5:30 - 2:30 time tables. This might even go a long way towards fixing the MBTA's current financial crisis when all the people taking taxis home from the bar/club/wherever have the option to pay less and take the T home instead.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

Who cares about parking rates?

If it's currently cheaper to park & ride, and the change will make it cheaper to simply drive... that is STILL an increase in the cost of driving. Meaning, MORE incentive to live in the city or in TOD. It will also mean MORE people driving, meaning longer drive times, meaning even more incentive to get closer.

We wouldn't be all in a huff about this if we stopped inducing and promoting outward sprawl. We need good planning, not bickering over how much some dude-bro should or shouldn't pay to go from Deluxebury to the Fanuiel Hall Cheers to watch the Pats.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

BTW, weekend parking rates will remain the same as they are now, as I recall. So...

 

[saulblum]

We wouldn't be all in a huff about this if we stopped inducing and promoting outward sprawl. We need good planning, not bickering over how much some dude-bro should or shouldn't pay to go from Deluxebury to the Fanuiel Hall Cheers to watch the Pats.

That would all be swell if all areas inside 128 had equal access to rapid transit.

Riverside is 9.5 miles from Boston Common, and has train service with headways of no more than 15 or so minutes all day long. Same for Braintree, which is 11 miles from the Common.

Moody Street in Waltham is around 8.7 miles from Boston Common; Newtonville is a mile closer. Both have service headways of at best every hour or so. I would hardly consider either to be "Deluxebury", and neither is typical American suburban sprawl. There are many other areas in the region that are no further from downtown than the ends of several rapid transit stations, and are hardly sprawl, which do not have convenient transit access outside of rush hour.

 

[whighlander]

Who cares about parking rates?

We wouldn't be all in a huff about this if we stopped inducing and promoting outward sprawl. We need good planning, not bickering over how much some dude-bro should or shouldn't pay to go from Deluxebury to the Fanuiel Hall Cheers to watch the Pats.

Urb -- you are starting to sound like Rif -- firing away without bothering to aim

The "outward sprawl" in question was driven by the railroads back in the 19th Century all the automobile did was make it more convenient to live in the suburbs if you were not right on top of a rail station

Thus in the 1930's Lexington had 2 Stations to serve the full town -- if you didn't live right next to Mass Ave. and only a few blocks from the stations then someone had to drive you (powered by internal combustion engine or by horse power) to either the East Lexington or Lexington Center stations

Route 2's construction freed the people of Lexington to live more than a mile or so from those two stations -- but given the fact that the boundaries of the Town had been set for 200 years -- it would hardly be called sprawl. What Rt-2 and Rt-128 did was to transform the mostly sleepy agricultural community (The Battle Green was mowed for hay up to WW II) into the vibrant, vital town of today -- part bedroom, part technology driven employment center. Had Lexington been condemned to depend only on the train and bus -- it would probably just be a bunch of mansions clustered around the train stations and the rest would be ?

 

[Shepard]

That would all be swell if all areas inside 128 had equal access to rapid transit.

Riverside is 9.5 miles from Boston Common, and has train service with headways of no more than 15 or so minutes all day long. Same for Braintree, which is 11 miles from the Common.

Moody Street in Waltham is around 8.7 miles from Boston Common; Newtonville is a mile closer. Both have service headways of at best every hour or so. I would hardly consider either to be "Deluxebury", and neither is typical American suburban sprawl. There are many other areas in the region that are no further from downtown than the ends of several rapid transit stations, and are hardly sprawl, which do not have convenient transit access outside of rush hour.

Best point of the thread so far.

 

[commuter guy]

Who cares about parking rates?

If it's currently cheaper to park & ride, and the change will make it cheaper to simply drive... that is STILL an increase in the cost of driving. Meaning, MORE incentive to live in the city or in TOD. It will also mean MORE people driving, meaning longer drive times, meaning even more incentive to get closer.

If more people start driving, maybe it becomes more inconvenient to drive into town in the short run, however the city has a tendency to gradually change to accomodate the additional auto traffic. Case in point, more parking will be demanded for newly constructed buildings. The city will likely modify urban streets to keep the additional traffic moving as they have already done by removing traffic calming curb lane parking along Congress St and Arlington St. over the years.

 

[whighlander]

Best point of the thread so far.

Quote: Originally Posted by saulblum
That would all be swell if all areas inside 128 had equal access to rapid transit....Riverside is 9.5 miles from Boston Common, and has train service with headways of no more than 15 or so minutes all day long. Same for Braintree, which is 11 miles from the Common....Moody Street in Waltham is around 8.7 miles from Boston Common; Newtonville is a mile closer.....There are many other areas in the region that are no further from downtown than the ends of several rapid transit stations, and are hardly sprawl, which do not have convenient transit access outside of rush hour.."

Shep -- No-- the Saulb quote misses a key point

Places like Riverside and Alewife collect people from places near to Moody Street both by buses and by cars (both parking and "kiss and go"

In point of fact [from the wikipedia articles]:

Red Line [Braintree] -- "The station features a large park and ride garage, with space for 1,281 automobiles (though the garage often fills up on busy days). It can be easily reached from Exit 17 off Route 3, a major highway to Cape Cod." -- also has Commuter rail station

Red Line [Alewife] -- " is a local intermodal transportation hub... a bus terminal for several local routes and one intercity route. A 2733-space multi-level "park and ride" garage, with a direct connection to Route 2 .. Bicycle parking for approximately 500 bicycles....a Zipcar location in the employee parking area ...Bus routes:
62 Bedford V.A. Hospital via Lexington Center and Arlington Heights
67 Turkey Hill via Arlington Center
76 Hanscom/Lincoln Lab via Lexington Center
79 Arlington Heights
83 Central Square Cambridge via Inman Square (terminates nearby at Russell Field)
84 Arlmont Village
350 North Burlington
351 Oak Park/Bedford Woods
The Route 128 Business Council provides daily shuttle bus services from Alewife traveling to many companies along the Route 2 and Route 128 corridor.[6]
As of October 2010, World Wide Bus began providing intercity bus service between Alewife Station, Riverside Station (the terminus of the Green Line's "D" Branch), and New York City[7] "

Orange Line [Oak Grove] -- 5,994 weekday boardings "located in the northern part of Malden, Massachusetts near the intersection of Winter Street and Main Street, and adjacent to the city of Melrose.... It is primarily a park and ride station serving nearby residential communities, with a parking lot of 788 spaces. It also connects to several bus lines."

Orange Line [Wellington] -- 7,464 weekday boardings " on the Revere Beach Parkway (a.k.a Route 16) slightly east of its intersection with Route 28....While there are some restaurants and stores nearby, this station primarily serves as a park and ride station and as a bus hub, with connections to several local bus routes. It features a large parking lot and a nearby parking garage connected to the station by an above-ground walkway, for a total of 1,316 spaces. "

Orange Line [Forest Hills] -- "Jamaica Plain neighborhood... intersections of Washington Street, Hyde Park Avenue, South Street, The Arborway and Morton Street....serves nearby residential neighborhoods and is also a major bus transfer station with connections to 14 routes. Commuter trains on the MBTA's Needham Line line also serve the station... Parking 206 spaces, 5 accessbile ... Bicycle facilities 31 spaces"

Green Line D [Riverside] -- " 333 Grove Street, off Exit 22 on Interstate 95 (Route 128), in Auburndale, a village of Newton, Massachusetts. Scheduled travel time to Park Street is 46 minutes. Riverside includes a parking lot with spaces for 925 automobiles and bicycle parking 48 spaces ... local and long distance bus service:
500 Express bus to downtown Boston financial district via Massachusetts Turnpike
558 Downtown Boston via Newton Corner and Central Square, Waltham
Intercity bus services to and from Boston, including Greyhound Lines, Peter Pan Bus Lines, World Wide Bus and Megabus offer occasional stops at Riverside"

Green Line D Woodland -- "1940 Washington Street (Massachusetts Route 16) in Newton... near the Woodland Country Club and Newton-Wellesley Hospital... contains a parking garage with 548 spaces, 16 accessible spaces, and two Zipcar spaces.... 16 bicycle spaces. "

What all these Line ends or near to ends have is: buses, large parking lot / garage with "kiss and ride" drop off and / or commuter rail to feed the station

None of these would be successful as just a walk-up station there just is not the density that far out including Moody Street

Now some of this may be changing as the reason that Alewife's garage is less busy may have something to do with the local apartments and condos in the walk to Alewife circle -- we will see more of that in the redo of Riverside and the new Assembly Sq. as well as Wellington

 

[saulblum]

Places like Riverside and Alewife collect people from places near to Moody Street both by buses and by cars (both parking and "kiss and go"

The post to which I was referring stated that none of this would be an issue -- whether it is best to drive in to the city or take the T -- if more people lived closer to town and there was not such sprawl. I was pointing out that there are areas that are pretty suburban in nature -- Braintree, Riverside -- that do have frequent rapid transit, and other areas that are closer to downtown and are arguably much more urban -- Moody Street (with which I have the most personal experience) -- that do not have such frequent service.

The reason why Alewife and Riverside have such big lots and collect riders from other areas is exactly because they are the last stops on their line. If the Red Line had been extended to Arlington and Lexington, as originally envisioned, would Alewife serve the same role of collecting passengers from further out?

Or suppose the abandoned Watertown Branch was converted to rapid transit at the same time the Riverside line was converted, or that the B&A ROW was not cut to two tracks during the Pike construction and frequent rapid transit was added between West Newton and downtown. I am sure there are other examples in the region where rapid transit could have been added to abandoned ROWs. There would be a more equitable distribution of rapid transit, and many of those passengers who now have to go to Riverside or Alewife or Oak Grove would have other, closer options.

P.S. This thread sure has diverted from the original post. But an interesting thread nonetheless.

 

[whighlander]

The post to which I was referring stated that none of this would be an issue -- whether it is best to drive in to the city or take the T -- if more people lived closer to town and there was not such sprawl. I was pointing out that there are areas that are pretty suburban in nature -- Braintree, Riverside -- that do have frequent rapid transit, and other areas that are closer to downtown and are arguably much more urban -- Moody Street (with which I have the most personal experience) -- that do not have such frequent service.

The reason why Alewife and Riverside have such big lots and collect riders from other areas is exactly because they are the last stops on their line. If the Red Line had been extended to Arlington and Lexington, as originally envisioned, would Alewife serve the same role of collecting passengers from further out?.....

P.S. This thread sure has diverted from the original post. But an interesting thread nonetheless.

Saulb -- my data dump from wiki tells the tale look at both the Green Line and the Orange Line as well as the Braintree branch of the Red Line. All of those have at least two stations near to the ends with good highway access which use this access to fill garages, have the "kiss and ride" and also have lots of bus lines feed them

Unfortunately we don't have the boarding data for all of the end or near to the end of the line stations -- but here is the stuff for the N Orange Line
Orange Line [Oak Grove] -- 5,994 weekday boardings
Orange Line [Wellington] -- 7,464 weekday boardings

 

[JohnAKeith]

Can't people drink in their own towns / neighborhoods instead of coming into downtown Boston?

 

[whighlander]

Can't people drink in their own towns / neighborhoods instead of coming into downtown Boston?

John -- sure -- it's just every once in a while I like to quaff a few in the presence of some Egyptian tomb artifacts (including a group of statues one of whom is bearing bottles or beer) and I don't know too many pharaohs in Lexington :=}

Other times my drinking is electrified by the display of artificial lightning on ol' Bobby (aka Robert J.) Van de Graaff eponymous million volt generator

Still other times I like walking along a harbor and knocking down a solid porter in a brewery

All of the above I can do within a few hours of walking about Boston -- much harder to do in Lexington (particularly the harbor bit)

 

[Kahta]

I feel the need to also point out that (though being as I'm not quite 21 yet and therefore can't and don't drink, I'm not 100% certain on which of these it is) MA law requires either no alcohol to be served after 2 am or for all bars/venues serving alcohol to close by 2 am.

Either way, if you've had a good time on the town and now you're slightly tipsy (or worse), come closing time your options are roll the dice on a taxi, roll the dice on walking home (if your home is close enough), or roll the dice on driving while inebriated (please, please, please, please, PLEASE don't even consider doing this - this is dumb and only idiots drive drunk), because the MBTA stops all service between 12:45 and 5:15 AM, give or take an hour depending on route and station of choice.

Bars close at 2.

Taxis are impossible to get down in the theater district. If you want a taxi, walk to the storrow drive exit by the common.

Honestly, if there was going to be a late night T-service I think that having an increased police presence would almost certainly be required in the stations and trains.

Meaning, MORE incentive to live in the city or in TOD. It will also mean MORE people driving, meaning longer drive times, meaning even more incentive to get closer.

Again and as usual you are ignoring the high cost of living in Boston and the gamble of sending children into Boston public schools. Many people would rather take the higher commute time and cost. Additionally, not everyone wants to live in a city. There is a reason that people moved to the suburbs after WWII. Cars and transit options give people a choice about where they want to live. Let them have that choice and leave them alone without any crazy schemes to eliminate or downgrade highways.

 

[whighlander]

Bars close at 2.

Taxis are impossible to get down in the theater district. If you want a taxi, walk to the storrow drive exit by the common.

Honestly, if there was going to be a late night T-service I think that having an increased police presence would almost certainly be required in the stations and trains.




Again and as usual you are ignoring the high cost of living in Boston and the gamble of sending children into Boston public schools. Many people would rather take the higher commute time and cost. Additionally, not everyone wants to live in a city. There is a reason that people moved to the suburbs after WWII. Cars and transit options give people a choice about where they want to live. Let them have that choice and leave them alone without any crazy schemes to eliminate or downgrade highways.

Kahta -- here's a response from the relatively new Head of "Big Data" for HP -- recently ensconced in the Alewife area -- and recently interviewed about this new HP endeavor and high tech in Boston in general

see the Cambridge Development thread for more information

"
So why Alewife instead of, say, Kendall Square? “We wanted to bridge the gap between getting access to the younger people living in Cambridge and Somerville, who want to take the T or bike to work, and the older constituencies, like me, who want to drive and park,” Lynch says. “It’s a compromise for sure.”
'

Lynch is ex-DEC so my guess is he's 20 + years out of school and probably lives in a NW suburb

 

[Kahta]

Kahta -- here's a response from the relatively new Head of "Big Data" for HP -- recently ensconced in the Alewife area -- and recently interviewed about this new HP endeavor and high tech in Boston in general

see the Cambridge Development thread for more information

"
So why Alewife instead of, say, Kendall Square? “We wanted to bridge the gap between getting access to the younger people living in Cambridge and Somerville, who want to take the T or bike to work, and the older constituencies, like me, who want to drive and park,” Lynch says. “It’s a compromise for sure.”
'

Lynch is ex-DEC so my guess is he's 20 + years out of school and probably lives in a NW suburb

Yeah, I think that the Route 2 corridor provides a great opportunity. There is plenty of land there that's just parking lots or open right now.


Ideally, I'd like to see Route 2 upgraded from the current terminus to the terminus of Soldier's Field road to semi-expressway standards (10 ft clearance, grade separated) to get rid of the bottleneck through that area. If done surgically it would really impact just a few homes and dramatically improve the quality of life in that area.

 

[Shepard]

Allow me to build an expressway-standard road in your back yard and you can tell me how much your quality of life has improved.

If anything I would advocate for further downgrading alewife brook parkway.

 

[whighlander]

Allow me to build an expressway-standard road in your back yard and you can tell me how much your quality of life has improved.

If anything I would advocate for further downgrading alewife brook parkway.

Shep -- the entire corridor from the slope of the hill on Rt-2 at Lake St. past Alewife on through Fresh Pond and the crossing of Mt. Auburn St. is inadequate at peak periods already. Some backups (normal not involving accidents) can slow traffic so that it takes 30 minutes to go from the Lake St. exit on Rt-2 to the River -- that is unacceptable more than a few times a month -- anything worse would divert even more traffic through the residential side streets and jam the entire area.

I think a major improvement can be made by using the existing exits on Rt-2 - perhaps in cooperation with the new Gateway to Cambridge apartment project and the revamped Cambridge Discovery Park developers to build a road parallel with Alewife off the Lake St. exit connecting to Cambridge Park Drive and then crossing the tracks (grade separated if possible) to ultimately connect to Concord Avenue

Unfortunately it is substantially harder to improve the flow the other way unless the small streets behind the old site of Dewey and Almey can be utilized -- at present the back-ups on Alewife heading toward Mass Ave. due to Left at the bottom of Rt-2 trying to merge with the 2 lanes coming from Freshpond are already near-legendary. While anecdotal and due to an accident at the intersection of Alewife and Mass. Ave. -- just two weeks ago it took me 30 minutes at 6:30 PM to go from Rt-2 at the Lights L onto Alewife for about 1/2 mile to make a right turn onto Mass Ave.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Saulb -- my data dump from wiki tells the tale look at both the Green Line and the Orange Line as well as the Braintree branch of the Red Line. All of those have at least two stations near to the ends with good highway access which use this access to fill garages, have the "kiss and ride" and also have lots of bus lines feed them

Unfortunately we don't have the boarding data for all of the end or near to the end of the line stations -- but here is the stuff for the N Orange Line
Orange Line [Oak Grove] -- 5,994 weekday boardings
Orange Line [Wellington] -- 7,464 weekday boardings

MBTA Blue Book 2010 sez:

Alewife: 10,657 daily boardings (most of any terminal besides Forest Hills)
Braintree: 4387 daily boardings
Quincy Adams (Braintree split exit): 4383 daily boardings
Riverside: 2192 daily boardings

I don't know if there's much to read into those Braintree Branch stations because every single one of them (even Wollaston) has robust ridership (all of them exceed Broadway). Generally speaking the boardings amplify much higher the more and better-patronized bus connections there are at a stop, and that varies widely. It'll take some second-degree crunching of where the transfer numbers are coming from on the significant bus nodes.

None of the near-highway stations seem to be underperforming vs. their peers, including ones with relatively meh ped access and residential density like Braintree. So that's a little bit of anecdotal evidence that the park-and-ride demand is real.


Unfortunately there's not a lot of commuter rail analogy because so few lines have near-128 stops at all, a huge deficiency in the system. Westwood/128 and Anderson/Woburn obviously spike on boardings vs. their peers, but those are Amtrak stations too so the facilities themselves are built out a lot bigger than the commuter rail norm and have more or less dedicated exit ramps right next to two of the state's busiest interstate interchanges. Old Colony Lines don't matter here because of the Red Line, and Dedham Corporate doesn't have the headways to pull convincingly away from the Franklin Line pack (that could change in the future if the line ramps up its sparse-ish service levels with the Foxboro branch).

We'll probably see the same rapid-transit P&R effect manifest itself substantially on CR when:
-- Fairmount Line goes to Westwood/128 (has to wait in the queue behind NEC tri-tracking and ADA + platform reconfig at Readville). Most rapid-transit like headways of any potential stop.
-- Fitchburg Line does the planned 3-for-1 swap with a 128/20 station replacing Kendal Green, Hastings, and Silver Hill. That's well behind closeout of the rest of the line upgrades in the grant app priorities, and Wachusett terminal would have to be online to achieve the meaningful headways here. But I bet that becomes one of the highest-ridership stops on the line very quickly.

Peabody/128 too, but they're going to have to phase that one on the cheap Peabody Sq. leg first and the more expensive abandoned ROW second, spread several years apart on separate appropriations, to make that doable. 128 dynamics are evolving fast enough that projecting 2020 commute patterns even 8 years out is only approximate science.

Think you could also make a strong anecdotal case for a Lake Quannapowitt/128 infill station on the Haverhill/Reading Line. The Reading and Wakefield boardings are just too crookedly high--almost double anything else besides Lawrence--for local residents alone to be accounting for it all. The parking at those stops is pretty unimpressive, so there has to be a very robust influx of park-and-riders either on drop-offs or bus connections (Reading does have bus connections to several malls and P&R lots around that 128 quadrant).