[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Money said:
Agreed. Im a huge fan of the most recent render. I could care less about shadows on long wharf or the greenway or blocking views of the custom house tower from a certain angle. I'm all for preserving what makes Boston unique, but It's a freaking city. We only have so many spots to build up, so lets do it where we can.
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I thought we were still at a BRA stalemate on this one with the project being supposedly uneconomical below a certain height and that height being way over what BRA will allow.

Let's put a fork in this and move on. The renders have been mostly blah, and bottom line is that it would diminish the skyline and the overall aesthetic of the city.

Plenty of great spots to build on. This isn't one of them.
 
tangent said:
I thought we were still at a BRA stalemate on this one with the project being supposedly uneconomical below a certain height and that height being way over what BRA will allow.

Let's put a fork in this and move on. The renders have been mostly blah, and bottom line is that it would diminish the skyline and the overall aesthetic of the city.

Plenty of great spots to build on. This isn't one of them.
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I agree, let's keep that suck-ass huge concrete monstrous dinosaur of a parking garage to preserve a view of the Custom House Tower as we approach the downtown on a ferry boat! Sounds good to me.
 
atlantaden said:
I agree, let's keep that suck-ass huge concrete monstrous dinosaur of a parking garage to preserve a view of the Custom House Tower as we approach the downtown on a ferry boat! Sounds good to me.
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Replacing one ugly structure with another ugly building that blocks the view of one of the city's most beautiful buildings... That's not a win.
 
I think the only people whose view of the Custom House gets cut off are some residents of Harbor Towers, and 22 Liberty and 50 Liberty. Rifleman might think Chiofaro cutting off Fallon's view was a just reward, given that Fallon sucked on the government teat to build out Fan Pier. Hard to tell whether the harbor-side residences on the more eastern build-out of Seaport Blvd. lose a view as well.
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We're now two months in with the 900,000 gsf cap, and six weeks since Shirley Leung wrote a Globe op ed commenting on Chiofaro's conspicuous silence re: a building(s) that would fit within the caps, so either Chiofaro is still 'hard at work' on a design, or he is throwing in the towel.
 
tangent said:
Replacing one ugly structure with another ugly building that blocks the view of one of the city's most beautiful buildings... That's not a win.
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Blocks it from where? It's one very specific angle. By that logic, we pretty much could no longer approve any development that blocks a sightline from the tower, since it will also block a sightline to the tower. That's a lot of places.
 
chmeeee said:
Blocks it from where? It's one very specific angle. By that logic, we pretty much could no longer approve any development that blocks a sightline from the tower, since it will also block a sightline to the tower. That's a lot of places.
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London has done just this to protect views of St. Paul's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_view). This has lead to some very interesting architecture that some people on this board would kill for in Boston (first post, long time reader), like 20 Fenchurch and 122 Ledenhall.
 
Not sure if this is an update or previously known information: When I was chatting up some BRA folks at the Washington Street corridor meeting a few weeks back, one of the staff who happened to be helping boost the staff but not on the project was someone who primarily works on waterfront studies downtown.

Unsure if this is what's the entire reason the project is in a holding pattern, but the BRA's finishing up an environmental impact evaluation of the waterfront - I assume an update/reeval of Municipal Harbour Plan - which includes in its scope the proposed James Hook Lobster tower down the Greenway. Once they've completed the draft, it'll be sent up to the state for evaluation.

I'm personally in agreement with others that this is one of the many places around the city where we should be building big. It's such a shame that the financial feasibility of the project have to do with maintaining the volume of on-site parking as an expensive underground facility...can't wait for a comprehensive transportation plan... That aside, I honestly wouldn't mind a building that falls into the prescribed envelope if only to shut up the NIMBYs. I've been spending a lot of my lunches in the winter garden at International Place and I would love a space like that to replace the garage, which isn't bad at activating the street around it right now - it could be much worse, but it's still not something worth keeping on our waterfront.
 
tangent said:
Replacing one ugly structure with another ugly building that blocks the view of one of the city's most beautiful buildings... That's not a win.
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Seriously? Nothing's even been approved yet, no one knows the design of any possible new building but seems like no matter what the final looks of the building is, you'd be against it. Like I said, blocking new construction in order to preserve a view of the Custom House Tower for those riding into downtown from a ferry or visiting the Aquarium is a bit much.
 
DigitalSciGuy, about two months ago the BRA released its draft. It covers the Hook site, the Marriott expansion, and the Harbor garage. That was the draft that said, for the garage site, no more than 900,000 gsf.

The draft included various massing schemes with various height profiles, and shadow studies.
 
chmeeee said:
Blocks it from where? It's one very specific angle. By that logic, we pretty much could no longer approve any development that blocks a sightline from the tower, since it will also block a sightline to the tower. That's a lot of places.
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I'm all on board with adding beutiful towers to the skyline, but this one specific angle is where thousands of Summer tourists and visitors are coming to and from the harbor each day. This is THE iconic Boston Skyline view from the inner harbor entrance. It is not just any angle.

The city should stick with the height limits on this parcel or else come up with something that is as compelling or more aesthetically pleasing than the custom house tower.
 
I've always felt that this iconic skyline view from the harbor is sullied by the Habor Towers. Let start by razing them and go from there.
 
atlantaden said:
Seriously? Nothing's even been approved yet, no one knows the design of any possible new building but seems like no matter what the final looks of the building is, you'd be against it. Like I said, blocking new construction in order to preserve a view of the Custom House Tower for those riding into downtown from a ferry or visiting the Aquarium is a bit much.
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I was on balance in favor until I realized it would block the view of the Custom House from the harbor entrance and realized how many people are coming into the harbor on ferries and harbor island tour boats and whale watches and other vessels. This is the view for thousands of people each day coming into the harbor.

I realize we have come along way from this truly POS design:

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To this much more aesthetically pleasing design:

AERIAL-02.jpg


But after a reduction down to one tower you are still going to be blocking the view of the custom house tower from a good portion of the harbor. Basically nobody would actually have that view in the second render unless you are on a pier in East Boston or continue further into the inner harbor.

Aesthetically it would be much better to frame the Custom House with the proposed tall towers at the government center garage and next to the Garden and keep the aquarium garage location low as was intended as a result of the planning process... you know that thing that people spend a lot of time on and then someone says they have a billion dollars to spend and all that planning kinda just gets ignored.

Anything done to harm the aquarium is bad in my book. The aquarium and central wharf is a book-end on a vibrant and resurgent downtown area. This proposed project is the definition of bull in a china shop type of unnecessary risk to what is a very successful area just hitting its stride after a very disruptive decade of the Big Dig. It would be like getting a wrecking ball and putting another hole in the ground next to Dowtown Crossing just after Millennium Tower is finished.


If Chiofaro or someone else decides to move ahead, then a single tower version of either of the towers in the second render would look good by itself, but I think in the context of the risks and other drawbacks that have been discussed then the final straw for me is that even after all that you end up causing harm to the view of an iconic and historic landmark for thousands of people every day. Just not worth it.
 
Replacing one ugly structure with another ugly building that blocks the view of one of the city's most beautiful buildings... That's not a win.
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I realize we have come along way from this truly POS design...To this much more aesthetically pleasing design
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So even though the latest is "much more aesthetically pleasing", it is still "ugly"?
 
Good God!...Just have those indispensible ferries modestly alter their routes.
 
What is everyone taking about...from the aquarium and long wharf you will still be able to see the custom house and that is where the majority of tourists are hanging ou coming/going to the aquarium and or waiting/disembarking from ferries at long wharf. Nbd build it now! Thx.
 
As I recall the BRA massing and height studies from two months ago, the only part of the site where Chiofaro might be able to go 'tall' was the southwest corner, next to the Greenway.

I believe the Commonwealth has signaled that they are unlikely to approve any building on the garage site that casts shadows on Long Wharf in late October. And the Commonwealth, not the BRA, not Marty Walsh, has the final say on what get's built on this site.
 
type001 said:
So even though the latest is "much more aesthetically pleasing", it is still "ugly"?
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I am betting that the new design is going to be wider and less good looking. I think that is a safe bet given that less square footage will translate into less money to go into the building.
 
tangent said:
I am betting that the new design is going to be wider and less good looking. I think that is a safe bet given that less square footage will translate into less money to go into the building.
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I say lets keep the garage and continue to keep the Greenway area underused along with making sure Harbor Towers remains Boston Prime Skyline.

Or give the developer 100Million in tax breaks like everybody else that builds in the city. Maybe we can get a 200ft box so it doesn't mess up Harbor Towers presence over how the skyline dominates the Greenway area. Along with Harbor Towers keeping their private pool area from actually connecting to the Greenway to the waterfront from the actual taxpayers who spent billions to cleanup the area.
 
stellarfun said:
As I recall the BRA massing and height studies from two months ago, the only part of the site where Chiofaro might be able to go 'tall' was the southwest corner, next to the Greenway.

I believe the Commonwealth has signaled that they are unlikely to approve any building on the garage site that casts shadows on Long Wharf in late October. And the Commonwealth, not the BRA, not Marty Walsh, has the final say on what get's built on this site.
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Done.
 
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