[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

whighlander said:
Chiofaro's scheme when fully unveiled with have a large housing component included -- specifically to get the Harbor Tower' folks involved
He'll also have an as yet hidden plan to demolish the Harbor Towers and Build Bigger on that site as well
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I'm assuming you are implying these two project will be related. i.e. offering incentives to Harbor Towers residents to sell him their condos in exchange for a good deal in his new building? Then he takes over the Towers and rebuilds.
While I hope you are right - I'd love to see it happen - I see a few problems.
Stubborn people who refuse to move out of the Towers or who hold out for too much money. He may be able to evict them if he becomes the majority holder in the Towers, but he would have a huge fight on his hands.
And speaking of fights...even if he does get the towers torn down, he will have a major fight with Ms. Li over what gets put in their place. Personally, I don't really care about the height, but the density is critical(see ablarc's Seaport thread). Either way, she is going to make his life a living hell. Hopefully he has the pull to work around her (and Menino).
I wish him luck.

PS
Congrats on 100 posts - newb.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

This should elicit some calm and rational responses here:

Banker & Tradesman - September 22, 2008
Developer Denied Access To Hub Mayor
By Thomas Grillo
Reporter

What does it say when the developer of a proposed $1 billion skyscraper on Boston?s waterfront can?t get face time with the mayor?

Donald J. Chiofaro has been rebuffed in repeated attempts to meet with Mayor Thomas M. Menino, sources told Banker & Tradesman. The snub, they said, has frustrated the gregarious landlord who paid $153 million last year for the Boston Harbor Garage near the New England Aquarium.

If Chiofaro gets his way, he will demolish the 7-story concrete facility along the Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy Greenway and replace it with a glass office tower, hotel and condominiums.

But it won?t happen until the mayor gives his blessing. Developers who want to build in Boston understand the importance of Menino?s support: without it, the project is just a dream.

?Menino is truly the guy behind the green curtain,? said one developer referencing the Wizard of Oz. ?I?ve been told over and over never to forget who signs the building permit ? it?s the mayor. In some ways it?s like waiting in a delicatessen: take a number and wait for your sandwich. And if you can?t get in to see him, you?re f**ked.?

Boston?s ?Don? is co-owner of International Place, a pair of office buildings with 1.8 million square feet in the Financial District where he recently hosted ShaNaNa, the 1950s nostalgia band, at a party for tenants. The former star linebacker and captain of the Harvard football team is not popular with Menino. One City Hall source described Chiofaro as an ?annoying? guy with a ?tin ear.?

Menino: Tower?s Too Tall
There?s bad blood between the pair dating back to 2006 when Chiofaro sought to slash International Place?s property tax bill by $3.75 million, or 21 percent. The relationship has not improved since Menino learned Chiofaro wants to build a skyscraper taller than the 40-story Harbor Towers, a pair of waterfront condo buildings adjacent to the garage he owns.

?The building is too tall for the site,? Menino told Banker & Tradesman.

Menino acknowledged he has not met with Chiofaro. But he said the Boston Redevelopment Authority (BRA) staff has held multiple meetings with him since April. The mayor expects the planning agency to vet projects, complete an initial review and get comfortable with a plan before it goes much further.

?The mayor will be prepared to meet with Don at the right time, but he expects his BRA managers will do some work beforehand,? said John F. Palmieri, BRA director. ?At this stage, Don is interested in doing a fairly substantial development at the garage. Our concern has to do with height, massing and density because of its location.?

?It?s not a place to accommodate great height,? Palmieri added. ?We?ve met a couple of times, but we haven?t encouraged him to spend a lot of time or money refining the plan because the most important issue for us is how it fits on the Greenway.?

Vivian Li, executive director of the Boston Harbor Association, who met with Chiofaro last week and has seen renderings of the planned tower, declined to specify the building?s height. She said it is taller than 40 stories but shorter than 85 stories ? the original height for the project. Zoning only allows for a 5-story building on the waterfront, she said.

Through a spokeswoman, Chiofaro declined to comment, saying in a voice mail message he has been ?unable to get permission from City Hall to talk about the project.?
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Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

This is another criss-cross Boston eff up....decent idea...bad location.
Forty stories on that parking lot parcel would be death to that part of the Greenway which is one of the nicer parcels with the fountain and po-mo blade lights.

People often overlook or don't care about the fact that one of Boston's strong points imo is its terrific sunlight distribution and lack of heavy shadows in its greener areas. This proposed tower belongs where those hideous Harbor Towers are...

If you want Chicago, where you will no longer need sunglasses by 2012 move there...

Menino is right in this case....in terms of pure aesthetics the smart, though probably improbable thing is to get rid of those two blotches, those horribly dated harbor towers, and build a sleek modern tower on that parcel of land.

Another factor in my opinion is that what makes the waterfront skyline nice is that it is pushed back off the water and smaller structures dominate the immediate water front...this gives a nice multi-dimentional feel to it. The array of high-rises in terms of shape and height is also very nice and a 40 story tower pushed much closer to the water would dominate that array.

I would applaud Menino numerous times over if he can stop the development of this tower on that garage location....

There are a good number of truly ugly buildings in prime locations in this city that need to be wrecked with abandon (One Boston Place anyone?)....obviously the city can't do that on a whim but that is no reason to ruin the character of this city with new poorly located buildings just so some people can get their 'tower-fix'

I'd even prefer for the garage location that Drucker-Pelli quick buck design that was proposed for the Shreve Crump & Low Building parcel...that would actually fit quite well.
 
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Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

^^Bubbybu, welcome to the forums first off.

I tend to agree with you in terms of the proposed height at this location, but if it's condos, 40 residential stories isn't all that high. certainly not as high as 40 office floors. Anything much taller than that, is a no-no here.

However, I think positive development, particularly in this area where it replaces a garage and will be oriented towards the Greenway (at least on the ground floors) should be encouraged.

The fact that the developer can't even get an audience with the mayor is crazy. He should at least discuss with him alternatives to the proposed height. It reminds me of a stubborn relationship between 13 year old girls. If the Chiofaro has a "tin ear," then have one meeting with him and do what is done with every other project in this city, leave it to NIMBY opposition, delayed permitting and approvals, and surely he'll run out of money, lose interest, or chop it down to a more "desirable" height (I don't see what's SO bad about 40 stories here, particularly residential stories which are shorter, but that's another issue).

Not meeting with someone who's interested in developing a project of this nature, and who spent over $130 million acquiring a property (regardless of prior relationships with the person) is sending a terrible message to other potential developers.

On a final note, I happen to like OBP, and I don't think I'm alone.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

For me an ideal waterfront area, for me, would consist of a lot of great low- to mid-rise buildings directly on the water (Rowes Wharf, for example), with all of the larger towers rising up on the other side of the Greenway. That's kind of what we have going right now, but I like the openness that that area has right now, and it is one area of Boston that I would hate to see canyonized. The skyscrapers belong in the Financial District, Back Bay, and DTX, not directly on the water.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

Man, this is classic Boston politics at work.

Also I agree that this is the wrong place for 2 40 story towers, condos or not.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

You people are you crazy any time someone wants to invest in your city its a good thing. I tried of hearinIt's the wrong location; that is the same thing they said about the John Hancock Tower and it is now its the most famous building in Boston. Am I right or wrong. And you guys wonder why whe have a boring skyline. I'm moving to New York.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

ShawnA, we realize that when somebody wants to invest in a city it's a good thing. That's basic. However, the developer/investor needs to be sensitive to the surrounding area and make the project improve the surrounding society as a whole rather than detract from it. If a developer dumps $100 million into an area, but the product is a precast debacle that does nothing to benefit or improve the area, what good has it done?

Let's use this proposal as a case study. Right now, that area of the Boston waterfront is, in my opinion, a very nice part of the city. Granted, it could use work (particularly the Greenway), but, as a whole it is a great part of the city. What we have now is a collection of primarily low and mid rise buildings right on the waterfront. On the other side of Atlantic Ave. is where all of the skyscrapers in the Financial District reside. It creates a very attractive scene and the pedestrian activity at Columbus Park, Rowes Wharf and around the Aquarium is great. Now, plop a large, out of scale forty story tower in the middle of that. It will disrupt the surrounding area. If you were to place four or five of these towers along the waterfront, what you would have is a wall of steel and glass suddenly plummeting down into the water below. That is not an ideal situation. Height is great, but only in the correct areas. In Boston, skyscrapers belong in the Back Bay, Financial District, and DTX primarily.

Everybody here would love to see more height and stunning architecture added to the Boston skyline. Just look at the threads for The Clarendon, Copley Place Tower, 45 Province, South Station Tower (this is a pipe dream, I know), Columbus Center, and the Filene's Tower. There is, for the most part, wide spread support for all of those projects. This just goes to show that height is not everything. Height is great if appropriate, but it is far better to have a ten story building that compliments its surroundings and generates street life than a forty story tower that looks out of place and disrupts the surrounding environment.

Now, if a forty story tower isn't appropriate at this specific location, then what is? Well, a mixed-use 10-15 story building would work well. On one side, you could have retail and restaurant space that opens up onto the Greenway, and some more retail/restaurant space on the other side near the Aquarium and the water. Up above, I suppose more office space would be appropriate, with possibly the second floor being additional retail. Green space wouldn't really be a priority, considering the plethora of park space that just recently opened - the Greenway. Put in some underground parking to help offset the loss of the garage, and the actual usage of the building would be complete.

As for the appearance, a design incorporating both brick and glass would be great (not the precast crap, the real deal - although that may be asking for a bit too much from today's developers). Detailing (now I'm daydreaming) would include some touches surrounding the ocean and aquatic life, considering its location to the waterfront and the Aquarium. A building such as this would be far better in that location than a forty story glass tower.

To sum this rant up, height is great if it is in the proper location, but the actual usage of the building is far more important than the height and overall appearance of it (I would much rather have a city full of so-so architecture but with a vibrant, active city life than a dead city with stunning modern works). Before you advocate for a project, consider the surroundings and what would best benefit the surroundings - then you plan.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

Since I'm new here and since we are just sharing opinions I will politely say that I strongly strongly disagree with Shawn....

strongly...


And on an unrelated note does anyone know the what the opposite of 'airtight logic' is?
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

The one good thing about building high close to the harbor towers is that it would dilute their ugly influence on the skyline if they're part of a cluster of buildings.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

I'm probably in the minority here but I like the way the Harbor Towers look on the skyline.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

I think 40-stories or taller (not much taller) would be perfectly fine for this location. This has the potential to be the first great development on the Greenway that was built after the highway went underground. Tall doesn't necessarily mean a building has to be a hulking mass. If the design gets progessively thinner as the building rises, similar to older buildings in New York, then this can be both tall and graceful--allowing everyone to be happy.

With the exception of the Harbor Towers the buildings surrounding this parcel aren't tall, so there aren't going to be too many shadows on the Greenway as it is. Also, this is on the East side of the Greenway so shadows would only be cast by this tower early in the morning.

However, the most important aspect of this project should be how it interacts at street level. This parcel has the luxury of having the Greenway on one side and water on the other side...it would be wise for them to take advantage of this.

The most interesting thing about that article to me was when it said that the original plan called for an 85 story tower!
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

Mike said:
I'm probably in the minority here but I like the way the Harbor Towers look on the skyline.
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I like how they look on the skyline, but how they interact on the ground level is another story. I too hope whatever is built at the Aquarium Garage is much more engaging for the pedestrian. This is one of the most exciting potential sites as it presents incredible opportunities.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

Tim Jackson said:
As for the appearance, a design incorporating both brick and glass would be great (not the precast crap, the real deal - although that may be asking for a bit too much from today's developers). Detailing (now I'm daydreaming) would include some touches surrounding the ocean and aquatic life, considering its location to the waterfront and the Aquarium. A building such as this would be far better in that location than a forty story glass tower.
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I respect your opinion and you do have a good explanation. But let me say this. You are wrong to say that a forty story is 'out of place' when you have 2 twin 400 foot towers right down the street, unless the Harbor Towers are getting demolished.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

I personally don't like the Harbor Towers at all really. I guess it isn't out of place in the sense that there are those two buildings nearby, however, I don't like the Harbor Towers where they are either. In essence, I don't like tall buildings on that side of the Greenway. Probably should have explained that in my little rant, rather than just say it would be out of place.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

If the 40 story tower was on the side closest to the Financial District then this would be different. What he is proposing is slamming a 40 story tower in with 5 and 6 story buildings. This will ruin the area.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

1. To the pedestrian on the street standing in front of whatever gets built here, what is on the ground floor will have an exponentially larger impact than how tall this building is.

2. Since the ancient Greeks, we've known that wide streets with stubby buildings looks ridiculous.

3. Designing a city so that it looks good from the water is nice, but please... that shouldn't be the first, second, or third thing in mind when planning the downtown area of a major metropolitan area.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

Let's not forget that we haven't even seen any plans yet. So who really knows if it's a great idea, a good idea, a bad idea, or a horrible idea?

The story here is that because Don is not the mayor's buddy, and therefore, he gets treated like crap.

If Joe Fallon, cheapskate developer of the Siberia Park Lane Prison Towers, controlled this site, the mayor would be taking a different track with the development because they are friends. So to me, the real story is Menino's failure to bring any modern professionalism towards politics and continuing to do back room deals with his buddies like some old-time hack. The so-called Greenway is ringed with parking garages - Hard Rock, Haymarket, Gov Center, Aquarium - that is FOUR massive parking structures that ring our fabled "greenway" median strip system. Let's tear them all down and replace them with city-sized buildings. Maybe 30 stories, maybe 90 stories. It is, after all, the heart of the downtown part of our city.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

My one nightmare vision of this tower is

gs01row17seat4.jpg


1207242700_0710.jpg


Whether or not my fears are justified, as you said, we should really check out the mockups first
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking lot.

vanshnookenraggen said:
If the 40 story tower was on the side closest to the Financial District then this would be different. What he is proposing is slamming a 40 story tower in with 5 and 6 story buildings. This will ruin the area.
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Exaggeration of the year.

What kills this area is the suburban landscaping in front of Harbor Towers. Who cares about their architecture. The pedestrian hardly notices them at all when you walk this area. Also, the classic skyline view from the harbor or Logan would actually not be altered in a negative way. The Harbor Towers appear in front of this new proposed tower from that angle.

Something in the 500-600 foot range would look like a natural step-up from the existing towers, and if the ground floor is well designed, it would be a big benefit to the area. The whole eastern side of the greenway is devoid of decent street life.

Lastly, this seems to be a debate over aesthetics which shouldn't be THE primary concern in new development. How about the fact that it's 1 block from the Blue Line station that is severely UNDER-capacity. Sounds like the perfect place for increased density.

In conclusion, as long as they get the ground floor right then all is well, and the height is just an academic talking point.
 
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