[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

TheRifleman said:
What is really funny is Menino is claiming these developers paid too much for these properties. When the city reasses the properties for 2010 the taxes should be much lower. Which means lower taxes for the city.

The Mayor should honestly just keep his mouth shut.
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Assessed value for the garage:

2000 $45.5 million
2005 $71.0 million
2006 $75.2 million
2007 $80.8 million (Bought for $155 million)
2008 $88.2 million
2009 $88.2 million
2010 $82.4 million ($10 million for the land, $72.4 million for the garage)

taxes in 2010: $2.4 million

For comparison, 474 Atlantic Ave. (The building next to Hooks)
2000 $28.5 million (Modern Continental owned it and renovated it.)
2007 $78.5 million
2008 $91.4 million
2009 $103.1 million
2010 $91.6 million ($17.8 million for the land; $73.8 million for the building)
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

TheRifleman said:
The Mayor was on the radio the other day and said it's not our fault that the developer paid too much for the site. So bottom line: The developer keeps the garage. Nothing changes for the Greenway.
Lets focus on getting Filenes built, Columbus built, the Greenway project funded, SST built. Why should the city assess the site for 150 Million? when clearly real estate values are collasping. Hancock just sold for 20 Million cash and I'm not sure how much the total debt that came with that possibly 600Million? Far cry from paying 1,000 dollars a foot.
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The more likely result is that Chiofaro can't service the debt, and the garage goes into foreclosure, and some other developer/investor buys it for half the price Chiofaro paid, and does something with it.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

TheRifleman said:
Let me ask you this question who would risk buying a garage for 80 or 155 million not having an opportunity to build billion dollar development? Nobody.

So with the city having the garage zoned for 200ft this will always be a garage. That is fact. The risk would not be worth the reward.

Can the BRA which is runned by Menino clowns help the developer to change those zoning laws absolutely. So when you say don't blame the Mayor or the BRA your wrong. They are 100% to blame for how the Greenway is turning out. Now if the developer couldn't find the funds they he should be held responsible.
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So by that argument, the city and state should have built the deck over the Turnpike so the Columbus Center developer could proceed, and make the numbers work. After all, Columbus Center was a fully approved and fully permitted project.

As for the billion dollar price tag, Chiofaro B.S.

Russia Wharf is 860,000 sq ft, Boston Properties construction loan for Russia Wharf was $215 million.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

greenwayguy1982 said:
Hi all, I'm brand new to archboston and enjoy reading the greenway thread. There is so much misinformation going around that I signed up and wanted to set a few things straight.

Just a few thoughts to set the record straight for all you who seem to think that the BRA's Greenway Study is a terrible planning document that will single-handedly set Boston back 50 years on the world stage. Please check your facts before you make such ridiculous and uninformed assertions.
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Jay Rourke, welcome to ArchBoston!

Did the BRA ask you to join as a narc? Does that mean that this forum is getting to be influential or a threat to the BRA?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

itchy said:
Jay Rourke, welcome to ArchBoston!

Did the BRA ask you to join as a narc? Does that mean that this forum is getting to be influential or a threat to the BRA?
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Hi, not sure who you are itchy but I'm a planner in private practice with an architecture and planning firm in Boston...is this how you welcome all newcomers to this blog?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Limiting the garage parcel to 200 ft will ensure that what eventually gets built here is a boxy stump thats footprint will occupy the entire property. Ofcourse , occording to the BRA, we're willing to wait up to decades (tell me that ain't ego) for this shit box to come. Sweet

Greenway, as a person in a architecture and planning firm wouldn't you rather see zoning for more ambitious and larger developments?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

GW2500 said:
Limiting the garage parcel to 200 ft will ensure that what eventually gets built here is a boxy stump thats footprint will occupy the entire property. Ofcourse , occording to the BRA, we're willing to wait up to decades (tell me that ain't ego) for this shit box to come. Sweet

Greenway, as a person in a architecture and planning firm wouldn't you rather see zoning for more ambitious and larger developments?
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Hi, in general yes of course but not on the water's edge. I think Harbor Towers were an unfortunate experiment (and not just because of their architecture, which was a function of history, but also because of their proximity to the water), and I'd rather see Boston do what Vancouver does, hold their tallest towers back from the water's edge with very significant public spaces and amenities on the water's edge. Everyone thinks that Vancouver has towers right on the water. Not so - if Boston grew by the same set of rules as Vancouver, there would be nothing on the Harbor side of the old Central Artery!! I think the BRA's Greenway study does it just right - shorter, less impactful development along the Harbor's edge, then let it rip up to 600+ feet on the other side of the Greenway in the downtown core!
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^Hey Greenway, do you like open space? How about green space? If you do, I suggest you move to beautiful Waltham or Natick and commute into Boston for work!
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Is it necessary to be so rude to people who have differing opinions? There's this black and white approach to thinking in this forum that ruins any meaningful discussion.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^Why don't you go and plant a tree on the greenway, hippie.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

What I really object to is Greenway's reference to Chiafaro's proposal as a "monstrosity" when there is no final plan as yet. I think he's prejudged here.

Why do all buildings near the water have to be of a uniform height?...and beyond a certain line of demarcation, a greater height? This seems contrived, as if they were all lined up and positioned to sing for us.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Merging the ideas of the greenway, the archway, and further development: They should build towers on the greenway at the same height, connect all the roofs, and have a park stretching across the top. It's crazy, it's different, it's absolutely insane, and... it's still green.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

greenwayguy1982, Welcome to ArchBoston!

As you can tell, people here carry some pretty strong opinions about urbanism, design and architecture.

Personally, I tend to like people who go against the general grain of the board, but you are going to run into some vitriol from some corners. We tend to give people a pretty wide berth to speak their mind, but hopefully you will stick around despite any invectives hurled your way.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^ Well said Statler, thank you from those of us who wish to keep things civil. It is the intelligent discourse and lively debate that keeps this board interesting. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, though some may scream louder or with less tact than others.

Personally, I have to disagree with the new guy. While I don't love the arch design, it's better than either the existing garage or a 200' stump in the same footprint. At least Chiofaro's proposal opens up roughly 1/3 of the site. IMO, greenwayguy seems to have a personal stake in this, such as a view in jeopardy.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Height is inconsequential if all development along the harbor were to the standard set by the Boston Harbor Hotel.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Just some simple math.

Chiofaro on the ENF gives the following values:

The land parcel for the Harbor Garage is 1.32 acres or 57,500 sq ft. (1.32 acres is the same as a football field with the end zones).

The current garage occupies a building footprint of 47,700 sq ft. Chiofaro proposes to expand the building footprint to 53,300 sq ft.

Chiofaro proposes that the constructed building will have 1.5 million sq ft, an increase of about 1.1 million sq ft over the current garage.

In the ENF, Chiofaro states that there are two alternatives to his proposal, build nothing, or build a Chapter 91 compliant building. He dismisses both in a sentence.

But, .....

Taking Chiofaro's own end-state values:

A 30 story building averaging 50,000 sq ft per floor would equal 1.5 million sq ft.

Assume 26 stories are 13 feet high, or 338 feet
Assume 4 stories are 20 feet high, or 80 feet
Assume a 'hat' of 60 feet,
That's a total building height of 478 feet.

Which is approximately the proposed building height he discussed with the city at length when he bought the garage in 2007. Rather strangely, he did not include the 475 foot alternative in his ENF submission.

So is Chiofaro a B.S. artist of the first order? Or is he someone who wants more vertical height so he can try to charge premium rent? He has a deserved reputation of trying to be the building owner in the city who charges the maximum rent. Nothing wrong with that if you can find someone willing to pay.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Banker & Tradesman - March 19, 2010
Better Read Between The Lines In Boston?s Latest Development Spat
By Scott Van Voorhis

Banker & Tradesman Columnist

03/19/10

Sometimes news stories, no matter how well written and researched, just can't get to the heart of the matter. And that's too bad, because if you had a hint of the inside dynamics driving the story, you might just take a very different view.

Just take the coverage of International Place developer Don Chiofaro's threat to pull the plug on his proposal to tear down an ugly parking garage next to the New England Aquarium and put up a pair of skyscrapers.

City Hall was never going to approve this plan for a whole variety of reasons. And while there is certainly an honest desire to protect the Boston's new Greenway from being overshadowed by a massive new development, let's just say there is no love lost between Mayor Thomas M. Menino and Chiofaro.

Boston's answer to Donald Trump, Chiofaro is just the kind of brash, bold talking developer that has always gotten under the mayor's skin.

Menino may not be a developer, but he takes very seriously his duty to oversee and help plan Boston's future - not the least what gets built here. Without the mayor on board, you are not going to build a new CVS, let alone a skyscraper.

So Chiofaro's recent announcement that he will pull the plug on his twin-tower plan unless the city lets him put up a pair of 45-to-50 story skyrises has the ring of someone yelling "I quit'' just minutes before they are fired.

The next day, City Hall lowered the boom. No spur of the moment backlash, the Boston Redevelopment Authority rolled out proposed new development guidelines that cap the heights of new towers built near the Greenway. These had been months in the making and were no big secret to Chiofaro or anyone else who follows development in Boston.

Needless to say, Chiofaro's dreams of building another International Place near the waterfront is now on life support - and will officially die once the new Greenway building guidelines are adopted.

The only mystery here is now Chiofaro thought he was going to get his project built by taking on the mayor.

In Boston, that's hardly a recipe for development success.
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Chiafaro NEEDS to quickly rename this garage:

The Mayor Thomas M. Menino Legacy Garage

Big, bold, brass, lit-up lettering for all to see. Just leave it there for decades.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

The way I see it, by limiting the height to 200 feet it will ensure there will be less direct access to the Harbor from the greenway. This property will allways be a prime location and be expensive to purchase. At 200 ft a developer will probably use up all of the square footage on the massing of the building to make a profit. If towers were allowed, smaller footprints could be used increasing access to the waterfront. It would be one thing if humans were 400 ft tall, then you could argue that by limiting height we are increasing peoples access to the water from the parkway. But since that isn't the case, verticle height has nothing to do w/ access from one side to the other. The only thing that matters is footfrint.
 
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