Biking in Boston

[whighlander]

They actually prefer to? Or have they been manipulated by a century of automobile related subsidies and bailouts, coupled with an onslaught of regulations and subsidies for living in areas which require a car, in additional to absurd marketing tactics? The marketing I can deal with, but when added onto everything else government has done to promote the car, it's insane.

Urb -- you need to read a bit of history of transportation and its impact on civilization

Just a couple of tidbits:

our rail guage today is based on the ruts in the roads the Roman's built in Britain 2000 years ago. The ruts were made by the wheels of the trucks of the day -- Ox carts

In the 19th Century Trains replaced Ox carts as steam freed us for the first time from a dependency on human and animal power. In the 20th Century trucks powerd by the internal combustion engine have to a great extent replaced trains as the way to move goods more flexibly over land using roads as compared to being confined to rails.

A similar sequence of tranformation has occured with respect to moving people over land.
1) Walk
2) Ride horse -- faster
3) Rde in vehickle pulled by horse -- more confortable
4) Ride in vehicle pulled by steam -- faster, safer, more confortable
5) Ride in vehicle powered by IC engine -- faster, more flexible and versatile -- e.g. more convenient

Is there a further evolutionary step to personal vehicles powered by electricity -- so far we really don't know

 

[Mark02474]

... Between T pass and hubway membership, I could say I spend $80/month on all my basic transportation needs. The foregone expenses of gas, insurance, car payments, parking costs, etc. result in me spending significantly more money at area shops and restaurants- so the state still sees a revenue from me that is directly facilitated by the fact that I don't have to by a car to do many of the things I want or need to do.

So, you are saying that because you don't pay taxes for using roads with your bicycles, you have more money to spend on other things. This sounds familiar. Oh, yeah, from Billionaires for Bush and trickle down economics! Less taxes for them gives them more money to spend and make more jobs! Great argument. Lets end the outrageous tax on yachts in MA! The ocean is free so why force Sen. Kerry to register his in RI? MA loses out on all the crew he can employ.

 

[Mark02474]

Urb -- you need to read a bit of history of transportation and its impact on civilization

Note that rail and canals were largely privately funded in the US. Rail construction workers did not earn union or prevailing wages. No police details.

By water we had:
1) dugout canoe and paddle
2) larger boat with slaves to row
3) sailboats
4) hybrid boats with sail, supplemented with slave rowers
5) Steamships, some hybrid with sail.
6) IC powered boats and ships
7) hybrid ships and submarines with IC (or nuke) powered generators and electric motors

 

[choo]

So, you are saying that because you don't pay taxes for using roads with your bicycles, you have more money to spend on other things. This sounds familiar. Oh, yeah, from Billionaires for Bush and trickle down economics! Less taxes for them gives them more money to spend and make more jobs! Great argument. Lets end the outrageous tax on yachts in MA! The ocean is free so why force Sen. Kerry to register his in RI? MA loses out on all the crew he can employ.

Ya my 2 bedroom apartment in Somerville is just like given a tax break to billionaires.... No For regular middle class people, in most cases a dollar less at the gas pump = a dollar more they spend on another service. In Massachusetts, my biking to a bar in the back bay and buying a harpoon (made in south boston) is much more valuable to the massachusetts economy then me going to exxon and filling up a tank of gas.

 

[choo]

Choo -- appology accepted

Westy

PS -- what the "Xk" as Riff would say does this mean " In this way a gov't can still see revenue from its citizenry, and can more appropriately encourage more desirable outcomes. "

Who should and is better situated to decide on what is a more desireable outcome for you -- you or the burureaucrat?

I think that this issue has been settled by the people "voting with their feet" as RR put it

Haha thanks.

The idea of gov't as a limiting bureaucrat is not what I mean. Gov't is the collection of society coming together to make decisions about the common good. In cities and states where people have been advocating for bike lanes over wider roads and more massive parking garages downtown, I am saying the gov't is the only entity encompassing enough to realize the diffuse economic benefits.

I don't want the gov't to tell you you have to ride a bike, I want them to only tell you you can't get your heart medicine and have the death panel vote on the value of life :O yayyyy Palin 2012

 

[whighlander]

...In Massachusetts, my biking to a bar in the back bay and buying a harpoon (made in south boston) is much more valuable to the massachusetts economy then me going to exxon and filling up a tank of gas.

Choo -- sorry that kind of logic led us to elect President Obama

You would spend for one Harpoon in a bar about $5.00
You would spend for one tank of gas at a loca station about $30.00

both of which flow into the Massachusetts economy

Some of it stays in Massachusetts to pay:
employees and local suppliers
Taxes at the state and local level

and some of it leaves Massachussetts to pay:
suppliers of Hops grown in Germany {Harpoon} or gasoline refined in New Jersey or Texas {Exxon}
Taxes at the Federal level

Now which choice helps the local economy more?

 

[choo]

And your thinking gave us the Tea Party.

I'll drink a beer and take Obama if given those choices.

 

[nico]

Whighlander - do you happen to know the margin on each?

 

[whighlander]

Whighlander - do you happen to know the margin on each?

Not off hand -- but the there is nothing close to a factor of 6 ratio in margins to make up for the ratio of gross $ -- both are relatively thin margin retail businesses

 

[Ron Newman]

I'm still not understanding what this has to do with whether or not to have bike lanes on any particular street.

 

[Mark02474]

No For regular middle class people, in most cases a dollar less at the gas pump = a dollar more they spend on another service.

This is precisely why gas taxes have not increased with inflation to cover roadway costs. Instead, much comes from graduated income taxes. Our economy is extremely sensitive to the cost of energy. Forcing MA power companies to purchase expensive power from Cape Wind puts MA at a competitive disadvantage to other states/countries. Just look at where computer server farms are getting built - where power is cheap and cooling is cheap (ie colder climates), and of course, where there is networking bandwidth, connectivity, and redundancy. Its similar with the refining of bauxite into aluminum - cheap electricity (energy) and affordable transportation (energy).

 

[whighlander]

And your thinking gave us the Tea Party.

I'll drink a beer and take Obama if given those choices.

Choo -- Yes including the original one that emphasized with an exclamation point -- that taxation without representation is tryany

Well today we know better -- we know now that taxation with misrepresentation is still not the best way to spend your hard earned money

No one has yet disproved the Jeffersonian maxim of -- he who governs least governs best -- or the correlary -- that you want to keep as much of the government as local as possible

 

[whighlander]

This is precisely why gas taxes have not increased with inflation to cover roadway costs. Instead, much comes from graduated income taxes. Our economy is extremely sensitive to the cost of energy. Forcing MA power companies to purchase expensive power from Cape Wind puts MA at a competitive disadvantage to other states/countries. Just look at where computer server farms are getting built - where power is cheap and cooling is cheap (ie colder climates), and of course, where there is networking bandwidth, connectivity, and redundancy. Its similar with the refining of bauxite into aluminum - cheap electricity (energy) and affordable transportation (energy).

Mark -- very well put -- especially the point about the Cape Wind mega scam.

Although even well outside of interventionist-Massachussets there are many weird "ecomonic anomalies" which seem baffling on the surface. Most are introduced even into the "almost free market" by "well intentioned" government intervention.

You mention refining Bauxite into aluminum -- are you aware of the plant in Dubai which is nearly as far away as possible from the source of the bauxite and the use of the aluminum

Only because at the time of construction of the plant the electricty was so so cheap it wasn't even metered.

And the electricty was so cheap in Dubai because the government decided a long time ago (in Dubai time) to not charge for natural gas pouring out of its wells by the unit volume [the iultimate 'too cheap to meter"]. The use of natural gas was encourgaged by the decision to just to have an annual nominal charge for the size of the pipe to cover the cost of connecting you to the gas supply.

And this "free" natural gas in turn led the company/family given the franchise to build / operate the electic system to build a very big natural gas fired generation plant. This had a lot of excess electricity capacity (at the time) and the utility encouraged the construction of a bauxite to aluminum metal plant to suck up the excess electricity -- charging essentially nothing for a number of years.

The nearly free cost of natural gas in Dubai led to other stange analomalies such as building indoor ski slopes and hundreds of km of irrigated median strips in the midst of the desert.

But I digress -- meanwhile in Massachusetts the government does it's level best to make electricity as expensive as possible by discouraging upgrades to existing plants through excessive regualtions while subsidizing uneconomic "alternatives" through a hidden tax on every rate payer's bill

 

[choo]

this started as a discussion on if bike lanes are a good utility on dense city streets with limited space-- now that its a full blown fox news circle jerk im out.

 

[nico]

Whi,
"Well today we know better ... taxation with misrepresentation is still not the best way to spend your hard earned money"

Are you saying that they didn't have the good sense to understand this at the time?

"No one has yet disproved the Jeffersonian maxim of -- he who governs least governs best -- or the correlary -- that you want to keep as much of the government as local as possible

"Corollary" What is as local as possible? Can this be done on an individual basis?

 

[Justin7]

this started as a discussion on if bike lanes are a good utility on dense city streets with limited space-- now that its a full blown fox news circle jerk im out.

This is what happens when you spend your time arguing with the guy who hates bikes because he's concerned about the environment.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

Its not about marketing and subsidies. People want cars on their own. Look at China. Cities like Shanghai have gone from 80% bicycle use to under 20% in a few decades. Advertising didn't create the shift to driving, pent up demand and the new ability to to afford cars did.

Yeah, because China hasn't been pouring money into super highways, wide roads, and towers-in-a-park or anything. No, not at all. Clearly this is the "free market".

Hey everyone, China is free market!

 

[whighlander]

Whi,
"Well today we know better ... taxation with misrepresentation is still not the best way to spend your hard earned money"

Are you saying that they didn't have the good sense to understand this at the time?

"No one has yet disproved the Jeffersonian maxim of -- he who governs least governs best -- or the correlary -- that you want to keep as much of the government as local as possible

"Corollary" What is as local as possible? Can this be done on an individual basis?

Nico -- they had the sense just not the experience with the consquences of more government that we have had

i'd put the group that signed the Declartion and cereated on the Constitution right alongside the best and brightest throughout history

Remember that at the time of the Declaration the experince was with local governments -- none of them except Franklin had any direct experience with any repulican form of National Government including Great Britain. Even by the time of the ratification of the Constution only a handfull includng Jefferson and Adams, who had been in London as envoys, had anythinbg but a vicarious experience with governing beyond the independent state level.

So all of the problems associated with of the growth of power in DC were just theoretical concepts to be debated in the 1780's-- but not trully understood from an experiencial perspective. Indeed, even as late as the 1920's DC was quite remote in the minds of most citizens of the US. Starting with Roosevelt, WWII and later the Cold War and the Great Society we have altered our relationship with the Federal bureucracy until now, U.S. rules and regulations trump most other considerations when making decisions about business and industry, and increasingly our personal lives.

 

[whighlander]

Yeah, because China hasn't been pouring money into super highways, wide roads, and towers-in-a-park or anything. No, not at all. Clearly this is the "free market".

Hey everyone, China is free market!

Urb -- No-one here is seriously arguing that China is a free anything

However -- Marks's comment does correctly identify the switch from bikes which is happening on a global scale -- give someone in India a job earning a few Rupees extra per day, and the first thing they do is ditch the bike for a used "motor" scooter / cycle and if they get rich enough a car

 

[underground]

Cyclists earn all the hate they get. Showing no respect for the law or other users of roads and sidewalks is one. Having a juvenile freeloader attitude is another.

I think I found Mark's problem: he's confusing the term cyclists with drivers. Or maybe it's pedestrians? In any case, problem solved!