Boston 2024

[tklalmighty]

tklalmighty and equilibria, Neither Walsh nor the governor are in a position to pressure/coerce/strongarm Harvard or any other private institution as long as they declare that not a single cent of taxpayer money is going to pay for the games.

And as I mentioned before, the original bid document indicated Harvard would raise money to help defray some of the cost of the venues to be sited on its campus, when Harvard had made no such commitment. Faust subsequently pointedly said that Harvard would never do such a thing. So those in charge of the original bid, in effect, poisoned the well.

John Fish is the chair of the Board of Trustees at Boston College, so overtures to Boston College by Boston 2024 would probably receive a better reception at this point. (Fish himself is a graduate of Bowdoin.) Charlie Baker did graduate from Harvard, but has publicly said that his four years at Harvard was a time he'd rather forget. So Harvard will do no favors for Baker.

I think we're in agreement about that. It's just unfortunate that this asset would not be as utilized as it could be.

BC definitely has good venue potential, and I imagine its Newton Campus would be highly utilized for practices in the weeks leading up to the games, although I don't have any idea what they would want to and be able to host at Alumni. The field is too narrow for a football or rugby pitch, and whatever issues Harvard had with field hockey at Harvard Stadium are likely to be shared by BC about Alumni. Georgia Tech's Bobby Dodd Stadium was unused in Atlanta and I wouldn't be surprised if Alumni goes unused. Or perhaps they go outside the box and try to relocate either BMX or track cycling. (For the record, I would lean against this as while the field of play would certainly work, Alumni is way too large capacity-wise.)

At the 2012 Olympics, there were 12 teams on both the men's and women's side for field hockey. The men's and women's rounds were played on alternate days. A reason for a second venue may be if rain caused a delay/postponement of a match(es).

Per Wikipedia, due to the change in format of the field hockey competition, a total of 77 matches were played in Sydney at one venue, versus 76 that were held in London at two (in spite of the two additional womens' teams). They typically schedule 6 matches per day during the group play, and the difference between the scheduling in London versus in Sydney was that the afternoon session of two games in Sydney was flipped for a night session at the auxiliary arena in London. Without more knowledge of the decision processes, I would wonder which arrangement sells the best.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: Use of Alumni Stadium.

BC's football season probably starts at the end of August, and practice starts about a month before. To my knowledge, BC practices exclusively at Alumni. I suppose BC might create a new practice field on the Newton campus, if there is room.

Holy Cross' football situation is different. It holds games at Fitton Field, has a separate field turf practice field, and I have heard they are building an indoor practice field like the Patriots have. So I suppose BC could also hike out to Worcester for practice during the month of August.

I've wondered who would inherit the 'temporary' Olympic stadium. Harvard has indicated its renovations to the stadium will reduce seating to under 25,000. College football attendance in the Northeast is steadily declining. UMass Amherst?

Paris said its aquatics complex will have six pools. Assuming Boston is somewhat similar, I don't think a university wants to maintain a six, or a four, or even a three pool complex. Does the city of Boston inherit the complex, and if so, why not site it where it would go permanently from the start?
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The only university winner from the Boston Olympics is UMass Boston, which gets thousands of new beds -- great for a school that has no dorms -- and basically contributes nothing to the Olympics..

 

[AdamBC]

Re: Use of Alumni Stadium.

BC's football season probably starts at the end of August, and practice starts about a month before. To my knowledge, BC practices exclusively at Alumni. I suppose BC might create a new practice field on the Newton campus, if there is room.

I have spoken with the Athletics Director at BC - he's excited that Boston is in the mix for the Olympics and would like to see events on campus. Based on what I've heard, he will 'make it work' to have Olympic events using the facilities that work.

 

[tangent]

BC's football season probably starts at the end of August, and practice starts about a month before. To my knowledge, BC practices exclusively at Alumni. I suppose BC might create a new practice field on the Newton campus, if there is room.

BC has 2 playing fields on the Newton Campus and 2 playing fields on the Brighton Campus to choose from. And even plenty of room for another playing field near Alumni if beer enhanced nostalgia for "temporary" modular housing from the 1970s could be overcome. Actually I think it would be great to see a playing field sized green where BC currently has its "mods". I think a smaller campus green is in the master plan anyway.

 

[tangent]

$1.2 billion dollar pad for Widett...

 

[Shepard]

Here's the Midtown and Olympic Stadium revisited plan (yes, Widett is still THE plan)

http://cdn.2024boston.org/docs/bid-2/boston2024_stadium-development.pdf

Some quick observations:

- Midtown plans can (and now that the powers that be are all aligned on this, will) go forward with or without Olympics. The numbers they crunched seem to show that development based on FAR and parking spaces makes it worthwhile when all costs are tallied. Of course, this depends on Boston's real estate market being as hot in 20-30 years time as it is now. I didn't see too many notes of caution being sounded on that front in the document.

- City's largest cul-de-sac, someone said this above. They trumpet a lot about connectivity, but it's pretty hard to see in the plans how this connects to anything.

- Midtown is just an awful awful name. If this development must happen, it must be known as something else. Midtown is geographically nonsensical, historically blind, needlessly derivative and intensely lazy.

 

[stellarfun]

shepard, thanks for the link.

As I read the financial table, the $1.2 billion development cost for Widett does not include the stadium, which is increased in size to 69,000 seats.

 

[Shepard]

^ Interesting. You know what I think? I think that 2024 never actually wanted the Olympics. They just wanted to get development slated for Widett. And I think they were caught knickers-down when Boston was selected by the USOC, which is why they've appeared to be drowning in incompetence since that day.

I know that's probably way overly cynical, but this is how it looks when they're build-out plans for Midtown are 500x as developed as their trial-and-error venue plan.

 

[tangent]

Great plan so far except for the stadium.

First Boston had the Big Dig and now Boston 2024 wants the The Big Deck.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

shepard, thanks for the link.

As I read the financial table, the $1.2 billion development cost for Widett does not include the stadium, which is increased in size to 69,000 seats.

Doesn't the stadium cost get covered by NBC/IOC (if temporary as expected)?

 

[stellarfun]

Shepard, in the original bid, the stadium was funded as an operating cost because, apparently, it was a temporary venue. Now they are talking about leasing a temporary 69,000 seat stadium, which apparently does not exist.

BC gets judo and wrestling. Harvard gets archery. Northeastern gets weightlifting.

From venues 2.0, they have no site for aquatics, nor velodrome, nor golf, nor field hockey (though BC is listed as a possible site).
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Seamus, doesn't matter who eventually pays for it. Boston 2024 should include the cost of construction / leasing, in its budget.

The cost of temporary venues went from $700 million in version 1.0, to $756 million in version 2.0. That increase doesn't cover the cost of the great tennis facility they propose.

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They devote 162 megs to great plans for Midtown and Columbia Point, and 500kb to the rest of the Olympics.

 

[Equilibria]

Seamus, doesn't matter who eventually pays for it. Boston 2024 should include the cost of construction / leasing, in its budget.

The cost of temporary venues went from $700 million in version 1.0, to $756 million in version 2.0. That increase doesn't cover the cost of the great tennis facility they propose.

They aren't leasing the stadium. They're having the land temporarily "turned over" to them, on which they will construct and remove the (still very much temporary) stadium before returning the land to the developer. The Midtown plan is designed as a prospectus for a development project, not as a venue plan, so it's reasonable that the bid's internal operating costs - which are accounted in a different document - wouldn't be included here.

FWIW, the cost of the "great tennis facility" is estimated clearly in the documentation at $37M, while the cost of the Olympic Stadium is estimated at $175M. That second figure seems pretty freaking low, but to be fair, a lot of the infrastructure costs are rolled into the Midtown budget. The 175M is all bleachers and field.

Are you arguing that Boston 2024 should be criticized for spending so much effort defending Midtown and Columbia point? Their other venues are places like Agganis, Harvard Stadium, and TD Garden. I think they're putting their resources into the right parts of the plan, with the notable exception of the aquatics center.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

If I'm not paying for it, it's not in MY budget. It needs to be budgeted yes, and could be included as a line item as to be paid for by others, but not as an add to my total budget as Boston 2024 is not paying for it.

Unless of course they are fronting the construction costs, submit all receipts and get a nice big fat expense check.

I would assume it is left off to not overinflate the numbers that are being covered by the proponent. Overinflated numbers are not going to look good to the public they are trying to sell this to.

So while you say should be included, that's an opinion and a valid one as long as it's labeled appropriately. It does very much matter who eventually pays for it.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

The 175M is all bleachers and field.

.

Still need to build it to code and provide amenities. Lots of terlets, power, lighting, ductwork, sprinklers, etc.

Infrastructure as far as supporting it structurally might be included in the deck, but all utilities coming and going out are most likely not. They will be hung under the deck as opposed to buried, so some savings maybe. All told, $175M will probably be closer to $300M. Concessions, LED big screens, etc. are not cheap either.

 

[Shepard]

 

[Equilibria]

Still need to build it to code and provide amenities. Lots of terlets, power, lighting, ductwork, sprinklers, etc.

Infrastructure as far as supporting it structurally might be included in the deck, but all utilities coming and going out are most likely not. They will be hung under the deck as opposed to buried, so some savings maybe. All told, $175M will probably be closer to $300M. Concessions, LED big screens, etc. are not cheap either.

I was being figurative...

 

[tklalmighty]

More-or-less-full venue plan is up. For those too lazy to find the link, here: http://cdn.2024boston.org/docs/bid-2/boston2024_venue-planning.pdf

Squantum should be a good site for beach volleyball. I also suppose I was wrong about field hockey at Alumni; it appears to be going forward (per http://cdn.2024boston.org/docs/bid-2/boston2024_venue-planning.pdf). They also say that although they do not have a proposed venue for diving, an pre-existing venue will be used. Also from the latter doc:

Boston 2024 proposes a regional preliminary model for baseball, basketball and football across Northeast corridor creating an additional ~1.4M tickets

First, baseball. Second, I guess that explains the lack of a single preliminary venue for basketball.

 

[stellarfun]

equilibria, you are correct re: the new tennis facility.

In the original bid, the stadium was $200 million in the infrastructure budget, and $350 million in the operating budget. Version 2.0, as you indicate, has it down to about $175 million total. The renovation of White Stadium is costing nearly $45 million. The athletes village now costs $90 million. The IBC/MPC $50 million. The total cost of the Boston games is cut from about $8 billion to $4.6 billion.

The aquatics complex $130 million, but they don't know where.

Where the plan likely falls apart is their likely inability to find a master developer(s) willing to sign on the dotted line with all sort of performance bonds and guarantees to deliver an Olympics Village that costs nothing, an Olympic stadium that costs nearly nothing, etc. by the time the bids go to the IOC.

They basically have cut their infrastructure costs to almost nothing, and are asking developers to pay

Baylor's new football stadium. Seats 45,000. Construction cost $266 million. And construction costs are cheaper in Texas.

 

[tangent]

Save 1.2 Billion Dollars (and actually win the bid):

 

[stellarfun]

I think baseball is a typo, although Tokyo has it for 2020, I think its a oneoff.

They state they will sell more tickets than London did, but don't give comparative seating capacities London vs. Boston.

Field hockey is only penciled in for BC. All the aquatic events are TBD venues. $25 million on the golf venue, but no site.