Cape Cod Rail, Bridges and Highways

jklo said:
Not doing the Bourne at the same time makes it pretty likely that the Bourne won't be replaced and will probably just be torn down eventually. Which is fine I think as long as this new Sagamore bridge has enough lanes.

I still maintain that doing either should be at the bottom of the list.
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How would this work though? I know technically it is rt-25 but in practice the bourne bridge and rotary is functionally the end point of I-495. Would they then need to route rt-25 over to the sagamore? That would then make the brand new bridges obsolete because theyd have to carry twice the traffic. Also why are they choosing the sagamore first? It seems to me that due to the radial nature of the highways that it wouldnt be that bad for drivers heading south on rt-3 to get to I-495, but drivers on I-495 would have to backtrack in order to get to rt-3. The bourne rotary also exists for a reason and it allows drivers to easily jump on 6A and get to rt-6. It seems that doing the bourne bridge would make more sense.

RandomWalk said:
I think there would sooner be a a pitch to close (and fill) the canal than to reduce it to one road bridge crossing.
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Whats ironic is that it would most likely never even have a chance of happening due to environmentalists, even though it is an artificially created waterway. Just like how they freaked out about filling in a tiny part of the charles river shore near the throat, which is entirely created by artificial fill. That being said I think the canal is a jewel of the cape/massachusetts and I would hate to see it ever filled in. Hopefully that is never a seriously considered proposal.
 
stick n move said:
Also why are they choosing the sagamore first?
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The Sagamore has a higher ADT, which makes sense since its on the route from metro Boston and connects grade separated to the midcape highway, which is the primary transportation artery of the entire cape. Bourne only gets you to Woods hole on the cape side and the congestion from the rotary severely limits throughput over the bridge (although the rotary will be replaced with a proper interchange in conjunction with the new bridge).

The idea is if MassDOT can only do one at a time, choose the bridge with the surrounding network that would benefit the most from the additional capacity.

And agree, 0% chance of the canal being filled or going down to one bridge.
 
The big objector to any filling of the Cape Cod Canal is going to be the Army Corps of Engineers. They have a responsibility to jealously guard the navigable waterways of the US from short sighted encroachment. And they almost always win.
 
Highwayguy said:
The Sagamore has a higher ADT, which makes sense since its on the route from metro Boston and connects grade separated to the midcape highway, which is the primary transportation artery of the entire cape.
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That's underselling it. Redundancy is nice but that's all the Bourne is. Even if you are coming from 495, you are likely better off getting off the final exit before the Bourne in a world where the Sagamore is upgraded.

You could still continue to rehab the Bourne until the political will to do so dries up.
 
Highwayguy said:
The Sagamore has a higher ADT
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"The 2019 Average Daily Traffic (ADT) for the Fall (off-peak season) and the Summer (peak-season) on the Bourne Bridge was 46,370 and 57,860, respectively. The 2019 ADT for the Fall (off-peak season) and the Summer (peak-season) on the Sagamore Bridge was 62,020 and 79,560, respectively.

Estimates of vehicle traffic volumes during design for new highway crossings of the Cape Cod Canal in the early 1930s ranged from average daily low winter numbers of 1,200 to peak summer Sunday numbers of 4,700 "

Source: https://www.mass.gov/doc/cape-cod-bridges-program-purpose-and-need-statement/download

Also...
" Steven Tupper, Deputy Director of the Cape Cod Commission, notes that the project is specifically being undertaken to "improve the reliability of the bridges," which are coming up on 100 years old. Alleviating traffic has not been identified as a project priority by the Army Corps and MassDOT. "
capecodchronicle.com

Too Soon To Plan For Bridge Replacements, Lower Cape Officials Say

capecodchronicle.com capecodchronicle.com
 
jklo said:
Redundancy is nice but that's all the Bourne is. Even if you are coming from 495, you are likely better off getting off the final exit before the Bourne in a world where the Sagamore is upgraded.
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Do you mean get off 25 onto 6 going to the Cape, or off 28 to 6A going off? Yikes. Good luck with NIMBYs in that scenario. Also, not for nothing but besides the residents of Falmouth and MV, the Steamship Authority, Wood Hole, USGS, and Otis might have a different opinion on the Bourne just being redundant.

And, my opinion only, if just one gets replaced funding for the other will be as likely as MBTA's electrification and regional rail planning exercise happening before the 2050s.
 
The latest estimates just for the Sagamore Bridge are about $2.15 billion. Both bridges together total $4.5 billion.

The Cape Cod Regional Transit Authority has budget this year of $18 million.

Even if you spread the cost of the Sagamore over a 100 year life span (and assume it will require zero maintenance for the next century) we will be spending more money on one highway bridge than we do on public transportation for the whole of Cape Cod.

I don't really know what to do with this fact. I understand the reasons to rebuild these bridges. Once a place is really car dependent, like much of the cape is, it makes obvious sense to maintain that network. People depend on it. But at the same time these decisions lock us into that car dependency for decades to come. It's frustrating to remember all the other similarly priced public transit projects that are considered "too expensive" and will get repeatedly shelved for decades to come. And I think, jeez, for $4.5 billion you could build out a public transit network so good that cape locals and tourists would hardly need a car at all.
 
I hear your point about the availability of funding for these massive projects and the limited resources made available for public transit, but even those who use the bus line for their daily commute have to get over the canal. I can't conceive of any workable option where at least one bridge is not replaced. I was thinking maybe the major overhaul on the Bourne Bridge could be put off for a time if trucks and heavier vehicles were diverted to the new Sagamore Bridge. It would also be great if there was greater use of the rail system which is shrinking from lack of public support.
 
Ignore the "1 bridge is enough" nonsense trolling.

If anything - the Cape is finally starting to wake up and act recognizing that making transit reliable and actually comfortable creates ridership. Bigger TOD planned districts will also help the local workforce.
Eastham: https://www.northeasthammasterplan.com/town-center-plaza
provincetownindependent.org

Eastham Gets to Yes on Two New Bus Stop Shelters - The Provincetown Independent

EASTHAM — The select board voted on July 10 to send a letter to the Cape Cod Regional Transit Authority (CCRTA) asking that shelters be added to two bus stops: […]
provincetownindependent.org provincetownindependent.org

"Cahir also said that requests for new bus shelters have been exceedingly rare during the years he has run the CCRTA. “In 14 years, this is one of probably two or three,” he said.

“Shelters are not something we talk about a lot — it’s not a big deal,” Cahir added. “If we have a request from any town for a shelter — which we never have — I would immediately send our operations team and facilities manager out to look at the site, see if it’s an appropriate location, talk to the town, and put one there. Requests for other improvements, such as lighting inside a shelter, just don’t happen, he said: “I’ve never had a request like that.”
 
I will say that income potential vs Housing costs have never been worse the Cape than it is currently. And it's always been bad. The situation in Boston is nowhere comparable.
 
ritchiew said:
The latest estimates just for the Sagamore Bridge are about $2.15 billion. Both bridges together total $4.5 billion.

The Cape Cod Regional Transit Authority has budget this year of $18 million.

Even if you spread the cost of the Sagamore over a 100 year life span (and assume it will require zero maintenance for the next century) we will be spending more money on one highway bridge than we do on public transportation for the whole of Cape Cod.

I don't really know what to do with this fact. I understand the reasons to rebuild these bridges. Once a place is really car dependent, like much of the cape is, it makes obvious sense to maintain that network. People depend on it. But at the same time these decisions lock us into that car dependency for decades to come. It's frustrating to remember all the other similarly priced public transit projects that are considered "too expensive" and will get repeatedly shelved for decades to come. And I think, jeez, for $4.5 billion you could build out a public transit network so good that cape locals and tourists would hardly need a car at all.
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You’re not going to get a suburban public transit system of any sort without the upgrades to those bridges. They’re complete bottlenecks, and unless you think the Cape can do just fine with degrading connections to the rest of the state, they’re essential.
 
Looking at the railway map the cape used to have a rail line that went all the way to p town as well as spurs to basically every important town.

Rail map

Is there any momentum towards at least opening the line back up all the way to p town? I dont remember hearing anything recently. I think that would be pretty important towards upping ridership. If they could eventually get a shuttle that goes back and forth from bourne to p town as well that would help a lot with inter-cape transit. Then they could start to fill in with tod and you could start really having something that works.
 
stick n move said:
Looking at the railway map the cape used to have a rail line that went all the way to p town as well as spurs to basically every important town.

Rail map

Is there any momentum towards at least opening the line back up all the way to p town? I dont remember hearing anything recently. I think that would be pretty important towards upping ridership. If they could eventually get a shuttle that goes back and forth from bourne to p town as well that would help a lot with inter-cape transit. Then they could start to fill in with tod and you could start really having something that works.
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Isn't much of that right-of-way on the Outer Cape the Cape Cod Rail Trail?

I don't think you are getting that back for rail service!
 
If thats the case then thats another example of a rail right of way being converted to a rail trail that should not have. Im all for bike trails, but when theyre used to eliminate historical rail right of ways so they can never be used again then its a huge loss. I feel like were starting to see this more frequently now where in some cases the rail trails are even built with the express purpose of nimbys blocking rail from ever using the right of way again.

Im obviously a fan of bike infrastructure and I understand that the over reliance on car infrastructure is what leaves bicyclists and transit users fighting over the scraps that are leftover, but unfortunately thats the world we live in right now. The amount of cars that can be taken off the road with a train is magnitude orders higher than bicycles, so trains should always be the #1 priority for right of way use.

All that being said… Looking on google earth I notice that there is a high tension line right of way which follows along the spine of the entire cape, which is cleared out. It also just so happens to cross the rail right of way right where it curves south in Yarmouth. I wonder if that could be a possibility in the future for bringing online a new rail right of way most of the way to p-town.
 
stick n move said:
If thats the case then thats another example of a rail right of way being converted to a rail trail that should not have. Im all for bike trails, but when theyre used to eliminate historical rail right of ways so they can never be used again then its a huge loss. I feel like were starting to see this more frequently now where in some cases the rail trails are even built with the express purpose of nimbys blocking rail from ever using the right of way again.
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Rail trails (at least in my experience) are even more popular with (dog) walking/jogging than biking even. Given how fat America is encouraging exercise is not the worst thing in the world.
 
JeffDowntown said:
Isn't much of that right-of-way on the Outer Cape the Cape Cod Rail Trail?

I don't think you are getting that back for rail service!
Click to expand...
stick n move said:
If thats the case then thats another example of a rail right of way being converted to a rail trail that should not have. Im all for bike trails, but when theyre used to eliminate historical rail right of ways so they can never be used again then its a huge loss. I feel like were starting to see this more frequently now where in some cases the rail trails are even built with the express purpose of nimbys blocking rail from ever using the right of way again.

Im obviously a fan of bike infrastructure and I understand that the over reliance on car infrastructure is what leaves bicyclists and transit users fighting over the scraps that are leftover, but unfortunately thats the world we live in right now. The amount of cars that can be taken off the road with a train is magnitude orders higher than bicycles, so trains should always be the #1 priority for right of way use.

All that being said… Looking on google earth I notice that there is a high tension line right of way which follows along the spine of the entire cape, which is cleared out. It also just so happens to cross the rail right of way right where it curves south in Yarmouth. I wonder if that could be a possibility in the future for bringing online a new rail right of way most of the way to p-town.
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There might be enough space abutting the trail for a single track rail-with-trail (at least as far as Harwich, and possibly all the way to Wellfleet). However, I wouldn't be surprised if locals are opposed to rail reactivation alongside the trail.
 
stick n move said:
Looking at the railway map the cape used to have a rail line that went all the way to p town as well as spurs to basically every important town.

Rail map

Is there any momentum towards at least opening the line back up all the way to p town? I dont remember hearing anything recently. I think that would be pretty important towards upping ridership. If they could eventually get a shuttle that goes back and forth from bourne to p town as well that would help a lot with inter-cape transit. Then they could start to fill in with tod and you could start really having something that works.
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That is an awesome map, bro. I was in the central part of West Virginia last week, and that is a great map of the historic rail network there.
 
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