Columbus Center: RIP | Back Bay

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Re: Columbus Center

If we follow Ned's argument that we should use the number of people supporting the mayor during the last election and not the Globe's 73%, and we run the numbers with the 2006 population of 590,763 (from Wikipedia), we get a number of 76,799.09 supporters of the mayor. However, if we use the Globes number that 73% support the mayor, using the same population data, we get 431,256.99 people supporting the mayor. In terms of the Columbus Center, if we figure that, maybe half of Menino supporters don't actually support the project, and if we use the lower 11% support rate (which is ridiculous in light of the Globe survey) we still get 38,399.54 people for it. If we use the Globe survey and figure half of Menino supporters are against it, we get 215,628.495 supporters.

Now, how many people are showing up to neighborhood meetings? If we give the South End, Back Bay, and Bay Villiage Associations the benefit of the doubt and say that they have 10,000 members total, that represents about 1.69% of people in the city. Furthermore, even if we use the lowball 11% figure, and even if we figure half of Menino supporters don't support the project, we are still left with a support rate in the city of Boston for the Columbus Center of about 3.8 to 1. What's democracy about again?
 
Re: Columbus Center

Have you considered the possibility that that plan is not equivalent to Biblical Law? Or that the real estate market, the economy, neighborhoods and the city its self are living, breathing, ever-changing elements . . .? Plans change.

Yes, Wocket, plans do change, and the Turnpike Master Plan recognizes all of what you mentioned. It also predicted today?s economic downturn, and prescribed that as just one more reason why California?s Columbus Center proposal now should be at least postponed, and probably scrapped.

Here?s what architects, citizens, government agencies, and elected officials wrote (italics added by me):

?The SDSC (Strategic Development Study Committee) worked with the BRA, BTD, and MTA to create a master plan for potential development of the Turnpike air rights in Boston.?

?The SDSC?s vision and Guidelines do not suggest the sacrifice of public benefits to achieve economic feasibility.?

?The SDSC believes inappropriate air rights development ? project that generate too much traffic or require buildings that diminish the character of their surroundings ? should not be built.?

"Real estate markets will continue to change over time, increasing or decreasing the value of different uses in response to the overall strength of the real estate economy. The Guidelines provide a careful balance that should permit development of many air rights parcels given the strong real estate economy of 1999. Ideally, air rights development should occur during strong economies that will support the best quality projects. A strong economy offers an opportunity to achieve projects that are both appropriate in scale and character and are also financially feasible. These Guidelines should not be compromised in response to weak real estate conditions.?
 
Re: Columbus Center

Ned, apologies if you answered this earlier but is the Turnpike Master Plan available as a .PDF somewhere on the web, or at least a hardcopy at the BPL?

If not, would it be considered a public document available via FOIA?

EDIT: I think I found it. Is this the document we are all discussing:

The Civic Vision for the Turnpike Air Rights (.pdf)
 
Re: Columbus Center

So technically, would the developer be able to build a tower on the remainder of Parcel 18 and 19, provide no parks and be in compliance with the master plan?

No. The Master Plan allows a tower on all or some of Parcel 18, but that option is subordinate to the requirement for the 2-acre contiguous park on Parcel 18 whenever the Parcel 16 skyscraper exceeds 150 feet. With a 420-foot skyscraper on Parcel 16, the Master Plan requires the 2-acre park on Parcel 18, leaving the option of a tower on the remainder.

. . . in that picture of most recent site plan, it looks like the tracks at parcel 18 are completely covered. Is that true, or does it just not detail the tracks?

California?s site plan is deceptive, but their architects? photographs of the model illustrate how the railways would remain permanently exposed.

ModelAerial1.jpg


Streetview2BostonGlobe19-Mar-2006.jpg
 
Re: Columbus Center

I do not think that a park overhanging a still uncovered section of Turnpike is good design, nor would it be well-used. The developer's modification to the master plan looks to me like an improvement.
 
Re: Columbus Center

TobyJug,

You didn?t dig deep enough, or you would have learned:

Firstly, I was a Vice President of the Ellis South End Neighborhood Association for 1997-2000, and a Board Director and Air Rights Committee member for 2000-2003. You wrote that I ?purport to affiliate? with the group in 2008, but I never said that, you mistakenly assumed it.

Secondly, you wrote that it was not formed decades ago. That is untrue. It was. It was first incorporated only in 1982, but it existed long before that.

Thirdly, you wrote that the organization was ?involuntarily dissolved.? That is untrue. While the corporate status was dissolved, the organization has continued uninterrupted, on the same basis as most neighborhood associations across the city.

Fourth, you wrote that no annual meeting was held in 2004. That is untrue. Annual meetings and annual elections are publicized and held every spring, even though no longer reported as a corporation.

Finally, Boston city officials encourage all neighborhood groups to form, and re-form, their own boundaries as needed. There?s no better authority for setting a group?s jurisdiction than the members of the group itself. It couldn?t be more democratic than that.

Ned,

I am fighting my naturally churlish disposition to try to give you the benefit of the doubt. I apologize in advance for the occasions when disposition triumphs over training.

You do not appear to understand the legal significance of the words you use.
The Ellis corporation, for purposes of the law, is a separate and distinct person from you, me, or any predecessor entity or association. It came into existence, it was "born" if you will, only upon incorporation. Legally, it has no connection to any group that preceded it. For purposes of the law, it did not exist before 1982. It is distinct from any "organization" that might exist simulataneously.

The Secretary of State's records, which appear at the website I previously posted, show the Ellis corporation was involuntarily dissolved in 1987, meaning it ceased to have legal status. It is right there in the website records. Typically, this happens when the Secretary of State's staff does a periodic review of corporate filings. When corporations become delinquent in their corporate filings, it connotes a dormant corporation. The Secretary of State acts to purge dead corporations through an involuntary dissolution process. As you can see, the Ellis corporation fell into that category. Its principals applied for a revival, presumably filed all of the delinquent records, and the Secretary approved the application.
Please do not deny this, as it is all in the record. I prefer to believe that your denial is based on misunderstanding, rather than avoidance of plain, public fact.

That the principals of the Ellis corporation might have continued to act in some manner during the period of dissolution means, in the eyes of the law, only that they were acting for themselves, or some other entity, not the corporation. The Ellis corporation is and was separate from such persons and activities, and at that point, had died, most likely from administrative neglect.

The Annual Report the group filed for 2004 does not show that an annual meeting was held in that year. Again, this is a matter of public record. Check the website. Perhaps some sort of meeting was held that year. Perhaps some neighbors did meet. That would surprize no one. But of what legal significance was such a meeting? None for the corporation. You seem to confuse corporate actions with personal ones. There is a difference. Suffice it to say, the Ellis corporation did not identify in the filing whether the required annual meeting was held, and gave no date for it. This information is required as part of the filing.

I previously assumed that the Ellis corporation's decision not to list you in recent times as an officer or director was a conscious corporate decision based on sound legal advice concerning the laws of agency and defamation. Like any assumption, it can be wrong, and it appears I was wrong in making it. I am pleased to read that the Ellis corporation stands behind your representations, and that you have been intimately involved in directing Ellis corporate activities.

Your understanding of the word "democracy" and mine differ, and likely will not be reconciled. In my view, none of the CAC members is entitled to cloak themselves in the word democracy, either in manner of nomination or appointment.

Finally, gentle readers of this post might wonder why I bother with these issues. The reasons are two fold.

First, words of art as used in any field, be it accounting, law, planning, whatever, have particular meanings that can be lost on persons not trained to understand them. Ned has done a tremendous amount of work in reviewing volumes of financial information. While trying to respect that, I have had growing reservations about Ned's ability to properly interpret the data. Yet I am no accountant, and cannot judge his financial analysis. But in looking Ned's understanding of a field in which I am knowledgeable, law, it is apparent that he misunderstands it. This reinforces my belief that pure tenacity is not enough to get at the truth, and that perhaps Ned misinterpreted what he was looking at. That is not to suggest that I believe the developer in preference to Ned, but only that I do not give weight to Ned's conclusions in this matter.

Second (and last), Ned has jerrymandered his map to discount Bay Village opinion. He justifies the jerrymandering on the grounds that the Ellis corporation is best suited to determine the boundaries that are the basis for the gerrymandering. Assuming for the moment that Ned is right, and ignoring for the moment that there is no law that gives the Ellis corporation this magic "jurisdictional" authority, is there anything in the Ellis corporate chronicle that gives you, the readers, confidence in the quality of its decision making and administrative grasp?

It is no backhanded compliment to say that Ned is a fine rhetoritician.

Toby
 
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Re: Columbus Center

I wonder if Bay Village would be as supportive of this project if the design was flip-flopped and the skyscraper was on the Bay Village side (Parcel 18) and the smaller buildings were on Clarendon Street (Parcel 16)?
 
Re: Columbus Center

Can someone please point out exactly where in the master plan it is given any sort of staturory authority?
 
Re: Columbus Center

Probably not, but what's wrong with "put large buildings next to other large buildings, and small buildings next to other small buildings" ?
 
Re: Columbus Center

Ron continues to be the voice of reason amidst all this rhetoric. The skyscraper site is just one block from Boston's tallest building. It's the perfect place for the skycraper.

Thanks for reposting those pictures Ned, what an incredible project! It;s not perfect, and I'm guessing the skyscaper needs to be taller to make it economically feasible, but I do love looking at those pics.
 
Re: Columbus Center

Probably not, but what's wrong with "put large buildings next to other large buildings, and small buildings next to other small buildings" ?

If the answer is "probably not" then isn't THAT an example of NIMBYism?
 
Re: Columbus Center

No, it's an example of appropriate design, siting each part of the project where it best meshes with its surroundings.
 
Re: Columbus Center

No, it's an example of appropriate design, siting each part of the project where it best meshes with its surroundings.

But if Bay Village wouldn't support it if the skyscraper was in their own back yard, how is that not NIMBYism?

Parcel 18 is much larger than Parcel 16. There is much more room there for a skyscraper, and it there is room to have it set back from the sidewalk (like the Prudential Tower) with a plaza in front of it instead of having it go straight up right at the sidewalk level as it would on Parcel 16. Also, Berkeley Street seems like a much more logical street to have go right past it. There's not much there now, whereas Clarendon Street is narrower and more cramped due to the busses and Back Bay Station. In my mind, having the tower on Parcel 18 makes much more sense design-wise.

Also, there would be less view-blocking to the neighboring buildings (The Pope Condominiums, 75 Clarendon, 285 Columbus, etc) so there would probably be less opposition from these neighbors.

Just because Parcel 16 is closer to the Hancock Tower is not a good enough reason to put it there when it would work better just a block away. Also, if it were to be built on Parcel 16, wouldn't that make the wind tunnel down Clarendon Street (already there from the Hancock Tower) even worse?

What exactly is the reason that it works better on Parcel 16 than Parcel 18, except for the fact that it's closer to the Hancock Tower?
 
Re: Columbus Center

I wonder if Bay Village would be as supportive of this project if the design was flip-flopped and the skyscraper was on the Bay Village side (Parcel 18) and the smaller buildings were on Clarendon Street (Parcel 16)?

I wonder if I would be happier if I won the lottery tonight?
 
Re: Columbus Center

What exactly is the reason that it works better on Parcel 16 than Parcel 18, except for the fact that it's closer to the Hancock Tower?

1) Transit Oriented Development. Higher density near public transportation.
2) 600+ Parking Spaces would make for one ugly 12 story garage on Parcel 16.
3) Civic Vision's guideline for the taller building to be located on Parcel 16.
 
Re: Columbus Center

Ned has jerrymandered his map to discount Bay Village opinion. He justifies the jerrymandering on the grounds that the Ellis corporation is best suited to determine set the boundaries that are the basis for the gerrymandering. . . there is no law that gives the Ellis corporation this magic "jurisdictional" authority. . .

TobyJug, you wrote, ?Ned has jerrymandered [sic] his map to discount Bay Village. . .?

That is untrue.

No one gerrymandered anything. It is not my map. The citizens of various streets re-drew, on their own, their neighborhood boundaries about ten years ago as shown. City Hall officials encourage all neighborhoods to do this whenever needed, and City Hall accepts the outcome.

As a lawyer, you already know that saying ?there is no law that gives Ellis this authority? is a specious argument. There doesn?t need to be any law. And no law forbids a group of neighbors from forming a community group, incorporated or not, registered or not. The Constitution, which forms a basis for our society and its laws, guarantees the freedom to associate. That?s what those neighbors did. And when their Mayor asked for a democratically chosen nomination, they provided one.

You?ve reported nothing about your results from researching Bay Village Neighborhood Association and Neighborhood Association of the Back Bay, both of which would give you plenty to chat about, based on your keen interest so far. Your obsession only with Ellis South End, to the exclusion of the others, is peculiar.

You could earn ? or lose ? credibility by identifying your name, firm, and whether you?re one of the 50 or so attorneys associated with CalPERS-CUIP-MURC-CWCC, MTA, BRA, and all their affiliates.
 
Re: Columbus Center

1) Transit Oriented Development. Higher density near public transportation.
2) 600+ Parking Spaces would make for one ugly 12 story garage on Parcel 16.3) Civic Vision's guideline for the taller building to be located on Parcel 16.

No uglier than the Hancock Garage directly across the street. Those who argue that like buildings should be close to each other should be happy with this arrangement.
 
Re: Columbus Center

You could earn ? or lose ? credibility by identifying your name, firm, and whether you?re one of the 50 or so attorneys associated with CalPERS-CUIP-MURC-CWCC, MTA, BRA, and all their affiliates.

Tobyjug has hundreds of posts on other projects in other threads throughout this forum (unlike yourself). He has shown many times over through his posts that he cares deeply about this city and it's future.
The suggestion that he is astroturfing the Columbus Center project is absurd and quite frankly, insulting.
 
Re: Columbus Center

. . . I'm guessing the skyscaper needs to be taller to make it economically feasible . . .

No, PelhamHall.

Please don?t just ?guess? at solutions.

The skyscraper is already economically feasible, so it needs no more height to achieve that. The City hired a Certified Public Accountant to advise the Mayor?s Committee and the public on financial feasibility. After a year-long review of Columbus Center?s secret financials, she certified that the entire project was fully capable of paying all its own costs and profits. The proposal was approved on that basis. Since then, California filed subsidy applications showing that revenues and profits rose considerably.

If you pull the public records on the finances, then you won?t have to guess.
 
Re: Columbus Center

California?s Columbus Center omitted from their latest plans the 2-acre contiguous park required on Parcel 18 whenever Parcel 16 has a skyscraper over 150 feet.


RequiredSkyscraperPark1.jpg

Ned,

1) Did Columbus Center EVER propose this 2 acre park on Parcel 18? According to you they must have or else it would not be possible to omit.

2) Would you rather see the parks on Parcel's 17 and 19 eliminated to obtain the '2-acre contiguous park' on Parcel 18?

3) Are those tracks left open on Parcel 17 in the Civic Vision?

If 100 people were shown this plan from the Civic Vision and compared it to the current Columbus Center Plan, I'd bet 98 people would pick Columbus Center. (and everyone here knows the 2 people who think otherwise)
 
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