Commuter Rail to New Hampshire?

[millerm277]

The Federal highway apportionment formula was changed in 2012. No longer any issue with applying tolls (under one of the Fed DOT programs). No impact on federal funding.

Fed DOT now allow tolling in four use cases:

General tolling for new construction (Section 129)

HOV Lanes (Section 166)

Rehabilitation programs (which virtually every interstate needs) (ISRRPP)

Value-based Pricing (congestion tolling) (VPPP)

Those all require federal approval. Federal approval which is IMO unlikely to be granted if a neighboring state has major objections, especially for a proposed toll which can likely be proven to disproportionately affect that state's residents. Said state would probably even have a Commerce Clause claim in federal courts if it did get approved by regulators.

Most of those programs other than VPPP also look to be tough at best to apply to the situation.

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I will also point out that Rhode Island just had it's tolls on trucks declared unconstitutional in federal court because (among other reasons) of how heavily they target out of state users/commerce - and the stated rationale of that decision would seemingly add further doubt to the premise that some kind of "border toll" would hold up either.

If you did get permission to implement more general tolling, I would suspect the tolls charged would need to be fairly distributed along the entire corridor, used only on the corridor + aligned to the costs of that portion of the corridor to hold up in court, assuming that decision stands.

In terms of congestion-based, I don't think you'd have any success saying I-93 needs congestion tolling from the NH state line to 495 or 128 only. If you're going to toll it all the way from NH to Canton, maybe. But that won't be the "NH tax" some are envisioning in terms of who/where most of the money comes from.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Boston to Manchester rail study: $782 million to build, $17 million a year to run

Feb. 26—MANCHESTER — Restoring commuter rail service from Boston through Manchester would cost $782 million to build and $17 million a year to operate, according to a new draft study done for the Department of Transportation. Claiming fares could cover 82% of that operating budget, the 80-page...

news.yahoo.com

The data dump from the truncated draft study is starting to come out.

 

[Koopzilla24]

Something I think is missing from the train station and job access conversation is the Zipcar ride share model. Renting a car is a hassle but a ride share is much more simple. Having ride sharing services (particularly EVs) at the regional park n ride stations could be a big attraction for New Hampshirites to switch to the train. People who don’t want, to or aren’t familiar with, taking a bus or walking to work won’t want to take the train unless their work is within a few min from a station. Having the familiar option of a car that they don’t have to pay for maintenance and gas on while only paying a few dollars to use for the day could be something that would encourage people to leave their own cars at home and take the train.

 

[NHMaples]

This is a number that's going to startle a lot of people in the legislature, but it's not clear how much the Federal government would pick up. I'm curious how much this would cost if the line only went so far as the two Nashua stops. The state already operates stations for intercity buses; I don't see that as different from taking on a train station at Pheasant Lane Mall, and the City of Nashua has already indicated that they expect to kick in for the second station. I imagine having a commuter stop in town would have a positive impact on property values.

 

[RandomWalk]

Something I think is missing from the train station and job access conversation is the Zipcar ride share model. Renting a car is a hassle but a ride share is much more simple. Having ride sharing services (particularly EVs) at the regional park n ride stations could be a big attraction for New Hampshirites to switch to the train. People who don’t want, to or aren’t familiar with, taking a bus or walking to work won’t want to take the train unless their work is within a few min from a station. Having the familiar option of a car that they don’t have to pay for maintenance and gas on while only paying a few dollars to use for the day could be something that would encourage people to leave their own cars at home and take the train.

Are you pitching a one way Zipcar setup? I don’t think any of the car share services do a Bluebikes style point to point setup.

 

[Equilibria]

Boston to Manchester rail study: $782 million to build, $17 million a year to run

Feb. 26—MANCHESTER — Restoring commuter rail service from Boston through Manchester would cost $782 million to build and $17 million a year to operate, according to a new draft study done for the Department of Transportation. Claiming fares could cover 82% of that operating budget, the 80-page...

news.yahoo.com

The data dump from the truncated draft study is starting to come out.

"This was predictable from the start. There was never a good reason to try to bring a 19th century transportation alternative and sell it as a 21st century solution."

And therein lies the rub. The parts of the world that have actually entered the 21st century in terms of infrastructure have discovered that it is the private automobile that is outdated and the train that is modern.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

This is a number that's going to startle a lot of people in the legislature, but it's not clear how much the Federal government would pick up. I'm curious how much this would cost if the line only went so far as the two Nashua stops. The state already operates stations for intercity buses; I don't see that as different from taking on a train station at Pheasant Lane Mall, and the City of Nashua has already indicated that they expect to kick in for the second station. I imagine having a commuter stop in town would have a positive impact on property values.

Not nearly as much. The line to Nashua is Class 3 (60 MPH...albeit a little rough-riding) with a recently renewed signal system, and would only need to be uprated to Class 4 with the cab signal + PTC layers added to the signal system. If it's stopping there there'd also be no need to double-track past the state line (although Pheasant Lane would need to be built to support a future DT addon). And only 1 grade crossing + a couple of culverts to upgrade, no bridges. The layover yard would require little permitting nestled inside of active CSX Nashua freight yard...just the trackwork, utilities, and perimeter security + access points. Crown St. already has commuter parking and egresses, so that would also be a cheap one limited to just the platform graft-on and track turnout.

Nashua-Manchester, by contrast, is 4x the mileage, only Class 2 (25 MPH...if it's even that high anymore after decades of Pan Am negligence), unsignalized, single-track, with shot roadbed, lots of bridges and culverts needing repair, and quite a few grade crossings to renew. It would have to be a top-bottom rebuild, plus the permitting for the Manchester layover would be more involved since that freight yard is derelict and 90% unused. I suspect the station costs (and our seeming inability to control them) are a significant portion of the total-project cost bloat, but the ROW costs are definitely very large.

Nashua poke could probably be done with a cost of $50M to state of NH if they kept the Pheasant Lane station costs in-check, and at that rate the available fed funds are likely to cover the lion's share of it. Most of the cost is going to be in Massachusetts where there's more route miles, full double-tracking, more freight interference (Lowell-N. Chelmsford) to square, and equal number of new stations...but also ample self-interest in paying for it. I could easily see the pivot from the ready-made sticker shock shrieks being a phased approach (with Nashua-Manchester phase being obviously non-guaranteed) to neutralize this as a campaign issue for both sides. It's not clear that the study actually crunched numbers for the phased approach, though...anecdotally it seems all-in on Manchester. So remains to be seen whether they have the data to bust it down. Massachusetts sure hopes they do.

 

[reno]

Not nearly as much. The line to Nashua is Class 3 (60 MPH...albeit a little rough-riding) with a recently renewed signal system, and would only need to be uprated to Class 4 with the cab signal + PTC layers added to the signal system.

Are you saying the existing line is 60 mph? I drive by it frequently in Tyngsboro and Nashua, it's looks like 10mph track.

 

[stick n move]

And therein lies the rub. The parts of the world that have actually entered the 21st century in terms of infrastructure have discovered that it is the private automobile that is outdated and the train that is modern.

This.

 

[Koopzilla24]

Are you pitching a one way Zipcar setup? I don’t think any of the car share services do a Bluebikes style point to point setup.

Normal car sharing where a station will have some parked and plugged in a designated area of the lot. Commuters can get off the train and into one of the cars to drive the remainder to work, or carpool with others, and then they’ll return it to the train station at the end of the day to take the train home.

Though the problem with depending on Bluebikes arises of what if there aren’t any left when you get there? With blue bikes there’s usually another station within walking distance but in the case of the car sharing that wouldn’t be the case and a commuter would be stuck with an unexpected Uber charge just to get to and from work that day. If we had better bike infrastructure in places outside of the immediate Boston area I’d say just put more bikesharing at stations. But we’re trying to attract car-dependent New Hampshire commuters here so granting them a car after the train ride would be more appealing.

 

[Tallguy]

So, explain to me why the 7 miles from Stony Brook to the border requires any double-tracking? For the miniscule remnant of freight that still runs that line? I would think that hourly service all day, with peak supplements at 30 minutes, should do the job. That's well within the capacity of a single track. Two single platform stations should not break the bank. A full twin platform at UMass might be a bit pricier. Or run the peak extra trains as semi-express and go cheap with a third single platform.
Remember, CSX doesn't have the Commonwealth in the vise that it does to Springfield.

 

[Brattle Loop]

So, explain to me why the 7 miles from Stony Brook to the border requires any double-tracking? For the miniscule remnant of freight that still runs that line? I would think that hourly service all day, with peak supplements at 30 minutes, should do the job. That's well within the capacity of a single track. Two single platform stations should not break the bank. A full twin platform at UMass might be a bit pricier. Or run the peak extra trains as semi-express and go cheap with a third single platform.
Remember, CSX doesn't have the Commonwealth in the vise that it does to Springfield.

Did I miss the T acquiring that stretch of line? I thought it was still CSX/Pan Am/whichever shell company the blue behemoth out of Jacksonville is using today. Even besides the ever-present annoyance of CSX freight disruptions (and they're not particularly prone to caring about whether their trains on their tracks mess things up for people who aren't them), it's a lot less brittle with double tracking. (Though I'd say avoiding CSX fouling up the schedules by virtue of simply not caring - and not having to care - if they're running any of their freight at inconvenient times, is probably worth it on its own.)

 

[Tallguy]

Did I miss the T acquiring that stretch of line? I thought it was still CSX/Pan Am/whichever shell company the blue behemoth out of Jacksonville is using today. Even besides the ever-present annoyance of CSX freight disruptions (and they're not particularly prone to caring about whether their trains on their tracks mess things up for people who aren't them), it's a lot less brittle with double tracking. (Though I'd say avoiding CSX fouling up the schedules by virtue of simply not caring - and not having to care - if they're running any of their freight at inconvenient times, is probably worth it on its own.)

The Commonwealth owns to the state line and has operating rights in NH. I would assume that requires that CSX maintain the track and give reasonable access, but we do know how well that works on the WR

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Are you saying the existing line is 60 mph? I drive by it frequently in Tyngsboro and Nashua, it's looks like 10mph track.

It's maintained to FRA Class 3. Freights can run 40 MPH there, passenger 60 MPH. It's old jointed rail though, so going that fast would be a barf-bag trip.

 

[Tallguy]

The Commonwealth owns to the state line and has operating rights in NH. I would assume that requires that CSX maintain the track and give reasonable access, but we do know how well that works on the WR

And how much freight goes up there nowadays?

 

[Tallguy]

It's maintained to FRA Class 3. Freights can run 40 MPH there, passenger 60 MPH. It's old jointed rail though, so going that fast would be a barf-bag trip.

So, technically, install ACSES II and get her done

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

And how much freight goes up there nowadays?

N. Chelmsford-Nashua is one yard feeder round-trip (from Lawrence?), plus a one-a-day local that heads north and west out of Nashua. Lowell-N.Chelmsford is 2 monster-size round-trips to/from Portland, plus the Nashua yard feeder (so, 6 movements per day). The Portland jobs definitely run during the daytime.

 

[Tallguy]

N. Chelmsford-Nashua is one yard feeder round-trip (from Lawrence?), plus a one-a-day local that heads north and west out of Nashua. Lowell-N.Chelmsford is 2 monster-size round-trips to/from Portland, plus the Nashua yard feeder (so, 6 movements per day). The Portland jobs definitely run during the daytime.

So, N Chelmsford to Nashua gets one? Round trip and north of Nashua is another single round trip?
Lowell-Ayer is 2 round trips, but that segment is DT already.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

So, N Chelmsford to Nashua gets one? Round trip and north of Nashua is another single round trip?
Lowell-Ayer is 2 round trips, but that segment is DT already.

Yes. And that's a reduction from pre-merger when there was a third daily Ayer-Portland job; CSX combined 2 of the Portland trains into one king-sized one. N. Chelmsford-Concord also gets a unit coal train a couple times a month for the Bow power plant, but those are way more infrequent than they used to be because Bow has been downgraded to a peak-only generating facility (and is always rumored to be a candidate for closure).

The protected freight clearance route runs all the way to Concord, so all of these stations would need passing solutions in design (all of the NH ones already are preliminarily sketched out for passing tracks per the study, and I think N. Chelmsford did in a prior study). The passers at N. Chelmsford and Pheasant Lane would stay even if the thing was VE'd to single-track for a Nashua terminus, and then if contiguous DT were strung together they could be outfitted with gauntlets. UMass would probably need to be done as a tri-tracker (plenty of room) since there's a bit too much daily high-and-wide traffic on the freight main to try a gauntlet.

Note that there are rumors of CSX wanting double-stacks to Maine sooner rather than later (as in, by/before 2030). That affects up to 6 bridges in Downtown Lowell on the N. Chelmsford-Lowell overlap that would have to go from Plate F (17') to Plate H (20'6"). Upside is that ample feddy fun bux will be freely available to wad up in passenger and freight improvements for paying for it. Downside is that the state really needs to get out ahead of the game in reserving future electrification clearance when it does talk with CSX about it...get it all done the first time without having to come back later.

 

[reno]

So, N Chelmsford to Nashua gets one? Round trip and north of Nashua is another single round trip?
Lowell-Ayer is 2 round trips, but that segment is DT already.

Lowell to Ayer is single track, except for a a passing/set out track at Westford that is about 1 1/2 miles long.