Cooper Street Apartments | 20 Cooper St. | Downtown Waltham

Pardon me for being the contrarian, but are these fires actually a problem? Or is all this risk already accurately priced into insurance. Yes, it's awful and wasteful when under construction buildings burn. In the perfect world this would never happen and cost effective measures should be taken to prevent it.

But as far as I know, Greater Boston has seen two significant fires in under construction buildings over the course of this entire building boom. It just so happens that they both came within about a month of each other. How many large wood frame buildings have been built in this time? I'm guessing about 100 across the whole metro since the end of the Recession. Is 2% actually bad? Do we have any reason to believe this is a higher loss rate than insurers expect?

Sure, we can point to additional fires if we expand the scope beyond Boston, but as we expand the numerator in our loss calculation we also have to expand the denominator. Is there any evidence (beyond the recent anecdoes) that building fires are becoming more problematic than previously anticipated?

And as far as fires putting people in danger, aren't there ways in which wood frame construction is safer for workers too? These fires have had no serious injuries. Meanwhile, off the top of my head I can remember one worker crushed by a steel beam a few years ago on a project in Eastie and another killed by a construction elevator collapse on the Partners building at Assembly. There was also that steel collapse at the AVA Theater District that seriously injured some workers. These accidents were all the result of steel construction, and there were surely more that I can't remember off the top of my head. I'm not saying that steel construction is thus absolutely more dangerous (these are all anecdotes too), but all construction has its risks and from a worker safety point of view it may be misguided to push for steel over wood.

Again, obviously it would be better if these never happen. But developers have insurance for a reason, and all insurers fully expect that they'll have to pay out on losses from time to time. When designing policy, the whole big picture deserves more consideration than the spectacle of two dramatic fires in one month.
 
There was a 3rd major fire fairly recently in Cambridge that leveled a lot of the existing housing stock on its block. That was also an under construction wood framed building that started it. Raleigh had a big one of these fires in the past few months too. It does seem to be happening an awful lot. 3 U/C buildings burning to the ground in the same metro over less than a year tells me there's a problem with this type of construction.
 
DZH22 said:
There was a 3rd major fire fairly recently in Cambridge that leveled a lot of the existing housing stock on its block. That was also an under construction wood framed building that started it. Raleigh had a big one of these fires in the past few months too. It does seem to be happening an awful lot. 3 U/C buildings burning to the ground in the same metro over less than a year tells me there's a problem with this type of construction.
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The buildings in Cambridge were 100+ year old "triple decker" style construction. That's a whole different beast from the modern multifamily wood construction of the Waltham and Dorchester fires that we're talking about here. If we start looking at fires in century old existing buildings and renovation projects, then that changes the loss calculations dramatically and pushes the denominator up into the many tens of thousands.

Just because something may "seem to be happening an awful lot" that doesn't mean it's actually a problem. Two big fires in the summer of 2017 looks bad, but zero (?) big fires in 2010 - 2017 looks much less bad. And you gotta look at the big picture...
 
JumboBuc said:
Just because something may "seem to be happening an awful lot" that doesn't mean it's actually a problem. Two big fires in the summer of 2017 looks bad, but zero (?) big fires in 2010 - 2017 looks much less bad. And you gotta look at the big picture...
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How many of these buildings were under construction during that time period compared to now though? Seems these big wood framed buildings are popping up everywhere.

Also, while I don't think it was during construction, Peabody has had multiple fires in their apartment complexes within the last 10 years.

By the way the Cambridge fire I'm talking about was in a building under construction and tore through a neighborhood. Maybe you were thinking of a different one? (those articles are from April, this one December)
https://patch.com/massachusetts/cambridge/cambridge-fire-blazing-reached-six-alarms
 
DZH22 said:
How many of these buildings were under construction during that time period compared to now though? Seems these big wood framed buildings are popping up everywhere.

Also, while I don't think it was during construction, Peabody has had multiple fires in their apartment complexes within the last 10 years.

By the way the Cambridge fire I'm talking about was in a building under construction and tore through a neighborhood. Maybe you were thinking of a different one? (those articles are from April, this one December)
https://patch.com/massachusetts/cambridge/cambridge-fire-blazing-reached-six-alarms
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These large wooden multifamily buildings have been a significant part of the current building boom all along. They're just not as high profile as the tall steel and concrete towers, so they're more likely to fly under the radar. "Downtown" (in the general sense) gets steel and concrete but the far majority of construction projects in outlying neighborhoods (think Southie, Eastie, Somerville, residential Cambridge, Dorchester, Allston-Brighton, Watertown, Chelea, Malden, Waltham, all the suburbs, etc.) have been built with wood. For example, the first phase of Assembly 5+ years ago was primarily wood construction while the newer buildings have been mostly steel. Many on this board (cca foremost among them) have been shaking their heads at all the large wooden projects for years due to a perceived lower quality of construction (e.g. noise, insulation, longevity issues), but there were no fires until this summer.

I know the Cambridge fire you're referring to. That began at a 100+ year old triple decker that was being renovated. Construction workers threw cigarette butts in a trash can full of construction debris, and that (shockingly) caught on fire. It was not related to new construction.
 
JumboBuc said:
These large wooden multifamily buildings have been a significant part of the current building boom all along. They're just not as high profile as the tall steel and concrete towers, so they're more likely to fly under the radar. "Downtown" (in the general sense) gets steel and concrete but the far majority of construction projects in outlying neighborhoods (think Southie, Eastie, Somerville, residential Cambridge, Dorchester, Allston-Brighton, Watertown, Chelea, Malden, Waltham, all the suburbs, etc.) have been built with wood. For example, the first phase of Assembly 5+ years ago was primarily wood construction while the newer buildings have been mostly steel. Many on this board (cca foremost among them) have been shaking their heads at all the large wooden projects for years due to a perceived lower quality of construction (e.g. noise, insulation, longevity issues), but there were no fires until this summer.

I know the Cambridge fire you're referring to. That began at a 100+ year old triple decker that was being renovated. Construction workers threw cigarette butts in a trash can full of construction debris, and that (shockingly) caught on fire. It was not related to new construction.
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My biggest concern with the recent fires is that the ever clever developers have found a new VE angle on 5 over 1 construction, and it is to blame for these major losses late in construction. That should be looked into. (Kind of like the cladding in the Grenfell Tower UK fire.)

We all know that developers can be very clever in searching for the newest VE angle.
 
JeffDowntown said:
My biggest concern with the recent fires is that the ever clever developers have found a new VE angle on 5 over 1 construction, and it is to blame for these major losses late in construction. That should be looked into. (Kind of like the cladding in the Grenfell Tower UK fire.)

We all know that developers can be very clever in searching for the newest VE angle.
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"VE Angle" ?
 
Are you questioning the proposition or what VE is? VE stands for "value engineering". It is synonymous with reducing costs in the process of design. It is also known as cutting corners. It is also known as padding the pro-forma. It is also known as making payments on contractors boats. It is also known as busting architects fees.

Is that what you were asking?

cca
 
Brock Commons is the first mass wood, steel and concrete hybrid project taller than 14 storeys in the world. The building has a concrete podium and two concrete cores, with 17 storeys of cross-laminated-timber floors supported on glue-laminated wood columns. The cladding for the façade is made with 70 per cent wood fibre.
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That's more than a little different than what we are talking about here...
 
Jouhou said:
That's more than a little different than what we are talking about here...
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Yup. Mass wood structures perform exceptionally well against fire. Even better than steel. Do not confuse mass timber or heavy timber construction with light stud framing.

cca
 
Jouhou said:
That's more than a little different than what we are talking about here...
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There's a good compare-contrast available between the Waltham fire and the fire on Summer St. a couple of years ago that gutted a heavy timber-frame warehouse (now office building) that remained standing and that (I believe) is being (has been?) rehabbed for re-occupancy with the original (scorched but structurally sound) timber framing.
 
CSTH said:
There's a good compare-contrast available between the Waltham fire and the fire on Summer St. a couple of years ago that gutted a heavy timber-frame warehouse (now office building) that remained standing and that (I believe) is being (has been?) rehabbed for re-occupancy with the original (scorched but structurally sound) timber framing.
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+1
 
CSTH said:
There's a good compare-contrast available between the Waltham fire and the fire on Summer St. a couple of years ago that gutted a heavy timber-frame warehouse (now office building) that remained standing and that (I believe) is being (has been?) rehabbed for re-occupancy with the original (scorched but structurally sound) timber framing.
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Exactly. A number of columns and beams were burned enough that they needed to be replaced, however the building was never in danger of collapse from my knowledge.
 
Not sure if you can blame V/E for the Dot fire, more like shoddy work by the sub...

http://www.wcvb.com/article/officia...ator-caused-massive-dorchester-blaze/10363069

Officials: Improperly installed generator caused massive Dorchester blaze

An improperly installed emergency generator is being blamed in a massive blaze that gutted a six-story residential building that was under construction in Dorchester in June, officials said.

On June 28, fire crews responded to a six-floor wood-framed apartment building under construction called the Treadmark at 1971-1977 Dorchester Avenue, near Peabody Square.
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The fire began around 2:30 p.m. and grew to a 6-alarm response over the next hour, the department said.

Officials said the emergency generator, which is in in the building in case there is a power outage, was being tested ahead of a final inspection. The generator is located in the basement, but the exhaust pipe came through the roof and it wasn't properly installed, officials said. The pipe should have had 12 inches clearance, but it only had 3 inches, officials said.

The 83-unit building was in its final stages of construction and was due to be inspected by officials at the end of the week. Residents were due to move in on July 15.

Officials said the construction of the building was all within the building code and added buildings across Boston are constructed just like this structure.
 
cca said:
Yup. Mass wood structures perform exceptionally well against fire. Even better than steel. Do not confuse mass timber or heavy timber construction with light stud framing.

cca
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BINGO

A 2x10 vs a couple of 2x4s with OSB in-between or a wooden truss?

The 2x10 wins everytime.
 
HalcyonEra said:
Not sure if you can blame V/E for the Dot fire, more like shoddy work by the sub...

http://www.wcvb.com/article/officia...ator-caused-massive-dorchester-blaze/10363069

Officials: Improperly installed generator caused massive Dorchester blaze

An improperly installed emergency generator is being blamed in a massive blaze that gutted a six-story residential building that was under construction in Dorchester in June, officials said.

On June 28, fire crews responded to a six-floor wood-framed apartment building under construction called the Treadmark at 1971-1977 Dorchester Avenue, near Peabody Square.
Advertisement

The fire began around 2:30 p.m. and grew to a 6-alarm response over the next hour, the department said.

Officials said the emergency generator, which is in in the building in case there is a power outage, was being tested ahead of a final inspection. The generator is located in the basement, but the exhaust pipe came through the roof and it wasn't properly installed, officials said. The pipe should have had 12 inches clearance, but it only had 3 inches, officials said.

The 83-unit building was in its final stages of construction and was due to be inspected by officials at the end of the week. Residents were due to move in on July 15.

Officials said the construction of the building was all within the building code and added buildings across Boston are constructed just like this structure.
Click to expand...

These generator exhaust pipes get incredibly hot - like glowing red hot sometimes. Besides the clearance around the exhaust pipe, it also sounds like it may not have been insulated properly, which could be a specification error. These things need serious insulation.
 
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