Copley Place Expansion and Tower | Back Bay

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I've never heard anybody demand to live in the absolute best or most iconic neighborhoods though. Not everyone needs a Beacon Hill townhouse, and you're right that those markets will always be hotter than the common housing stock, but what of it? I think newer housing near transit with lower costs and more modern amenities could be a draw for many people who feel that they're probably overpaying for a good address.

I could not disagree more. To use an extremely overused phrase, it's "location, location, location." It is literally the only thing that you can not change on a given property no matter how much you invest into renovations or whatever. Rest assured, there is high demand to seek and buy into and live in "iconic" neighborhoods or specific areas. That's not to say "iconic" areas remain iconic or desirable throughout the rest of time though.

You're right that it's not everyone (obviously) and there are certainly buyers who are drawn to or prioritize many, many other things.
 
At what point can you reduce the cost for developers so that affordable/low-income housing becomes profitable? If you can answer that question, then you may have solved Boston's housing problem. I'll wait.

Without subsidies and unlimited supply, building housing for low-income tenants will never be as profitable as housing for people with middle- and high-income. Period. This is true everywhere, even in markets without "Boston's housing problem". But it doesn't matter, and we don't need to reverse this in order to address our housing affordability crisis.

Low income housing doesn't need to be profitable in order for it to be more affordable. If you build enough profitable middle- and high-income housing it will take pressure off of those with low income. And revenue from middle- and upper-income housing can be used to subsidize low-income housing. This is how you address housing affordability for people on the lower side of middle income.

And as far as people with truly low income, it's important to remember that low income people really don't have a housing affordability issue. They have an everything affordability issue. When low income people can't afford medicine, we set up medicaid. When low income people can't afford food, we set up WIC and SNAP. When low income people can't afford to send their kids to school, we set up public schools. These are the ways that the necessities of low income individuals are usually addressed. We don't say "At what point will hospital stays for low income individuals who can't pay become profitable? I'll wait."

So yeah, allow developers to build as much middle- and upper-income housing as their profit motive desires. As more housing gets built there will be less competition for existing housing; this helps everyone who rents in the existing housing the same way it helps those who move to the new housing.

There is also a qualitative factor in Boston's high housing cost that is hard to analyze with traditional economic supply/demand modeling - there are only so many Beacon Hill/ South End type neighborhoods in Boston. Certain urban neighborhoods whether its Greenwich Village in NY, Park Slope in Brooklyn or North Beach in San Francisco are so scarce and not going to be easily replicated. Assuming crime etc is not out of control and the quality of life is good the wealthy or those with excess disposable income will continue to gravitate to these unique and relatively scarce neighborhoods in significant numbers to the point demand will exceed demand. I'd speculate that these neighborhoods play in the role in the desirability of nearby housing even if it does not share the same characteristics. For example the bland high rises of Charles River park benefit from their location adjacent to the allure of Beacon Hill, etc. Boston could build dense town home communities on zero lot lines but I'm not sure it would lower the cost of housing in central historic Boston neighborhoods. The reason being is that these types of neighborhoods are so unique and scarce across the country.

In the big picture, this doesn't matter. These fancy neighborhoods are such a tiny slice of overall supply. Super supply-constrained neighborhoods will always be super expensive as long as they're in high demand, and that's fine. I don't care about pricing on Beacon Hill, I care about pricing overall. And tiny areas like Beacon Hill do very little to affect overall prices.

If you look at it in the bigger picture sense of "Boston housing overall is in high demand", well then, yeah, that matters. Basic supply and demand theory: when demand is relatively high and supply is relatively low, prices go relatively high.
 
At what point can you reduce the cost for developers so that affordable/low-income housing becomes profitable? If you can answer that question, then you may have solved Boston's housing problem. I'll wait.

Why force developers to adhere to requirements that ruin the feasibility of a project? Boston hasn't had an air-rights project get out of the ground in 30 years! The city either needs to help with the cost of the decking, do the decking itself with the promise of a return on investment in the form of taxes, or ease up on the affordable housing and/or forcing developers to "bribe" the neighborhood.

The inability of this city to complete an air rights project since the 1980's is, in a word, pathetic. Here's hoping the mayor's upcoming reelection will jump-start many of the stalled projects and keep Boston on its upward trajectory.
 
I could not disagree more. To use an extremely overused phrase, it's "location, location, location." It is literally the only thing that you can not change on a given property no matter how much you invest into renovations or whatever. Rest assured, there is high demand to seek and buy into and live in "iconic" neighborhoods or specific areas. That's not to say "iconic" areas remain iconic or desirable throughout the rest of time though.

You're right that it's not everyone (obviously) and there are certainly buyers who are drawn to or prioritize many, many other things.

Yeah, but that's all factored in to the price. In the end, the available units sell for the most amount that an equivalent number of buyers is willing to pay. The pint he was making (I think) was that there is some spill over affecting abutting neighborhoods. Places like Charles River Park service buyers not willing to pay a premium for the actual location, but willing to accept a discount for a less charming, next door neighbor. It is always about supply and demand, regardless of how quality of supply stimulates that demand.
 
Without subsidies and unlimited supply, building housing for low-income tenants will never be as profitable as housing for people with middle- and high-income. Period. This is true everywhere, even in markets without "Boston's housing problem".

Exactly and this is why developers need to allocate a portion to affordable housing and in exchange, they should be allowed to build more luxury housing to offset the cost.

But it doesn't matter, and we don't need to reverse this in order to address our housing affordability crisis.

Low income housing doesn't need to be profitable in order for it to be more affordable. If you build enough profitable middle- and high-income housing it will take pressure off of those with low income. And revenue from middle- and upper-income housing can be used to subsidize low-income housing. This is how you address housing affordability for people on the lower side of middle income.

And as far as people with truly low income, it's important to remember that low income people really don't have a housing affordability issue. They have an everything affordability issue. When low income people can't afford medicine, we set up medicaid. When low income people can't afford food, we set up WIC and SNAP. When low income people can't afford to send their kids to school, we set up public schools. These are the ways that the necessities of low income individuals are usually addressed. We don't say "At what point will hospital stays for low income individuals who can't pay become profitable? I'll wait."

So yeah, allow developers to build as much middle- and upper-income housing as their profit motive desires. As more housing gets built there will be less competition for existing housing; this helps everyone who rents in the existing housing the same way it helps those who move to the new housing.
You're assuming that the number of low income residents remains stagnant. The problem with your idea of just building middle and upper income housing without also building affordable housing is that the supply of low income housing remains stagnant while the number of people who are in the lower bracket continues to grow. Even if you were to put a hypothetical restriction that anyone not in the low income bracket is allowed to rent or buy low income housing, low income residents would still outstrip supply and will continue to do so if low income supply remains stagnant. Unlike the upper brackets, low income residents can't just pay for housing in a difference income bracket.

Worse, due to gentrification, low income housing supply is unlikely to grow at a pace needed to stabilize rent in the near future as landlords raise rent or redevelop low income housing into the middle income housing. You're seeing this in Chinatown. You're going to see more of this as it affect the adjacent neighborhoods.
 
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Why force developers to adhere to requirements that ruin the feasibility of a project? Boston hasn't had an air-rights project get out of the ground in 30 years! The city either needs to help with the cost of the decking, do the decking itself with the promise of a return on investment in the form of taxes, or ease up on the affordable housing and/or forcing developers to "bribe" the neighborhood.

The inability of this city to complete an air rights project since the 1980's is, in a word, pathetic. Here's hoping the mayor's upcoming reelection will jump-start many of the stalled projects and keep Boston on its upward trajectory.

Sorry to say none of the air rights project will be affordable so I don't even know why you're even bringing this up. If the city really wants to make a dent in the housing market using air-rights, like you said, the city should offer some concessions. Cover the cost of decking or allow developers to build higher to subsidize the required affordable housing allocation.
 
You're assuming that the number of low income residents remains stagnant. The problem with your idea of just building middle and upper income housing is that the supply of low income housing remains stagnant while the number of people who are in the lower bracket continues to grow. Even if you were to put a hypothetical restriction that anyone not in the low income bracket is allowed to rent or buy low income housing, low income residents would still outstrip supply and will continue to do so if low income supply remains stagnant. And unlike the upper brackets, low income residents can't just pay for housing in a difference income bracket.

Housing is fungible. You talk about housing as if there is "low income housing" and "middle income housing" and "upper income housing" and they are all siloed off from each other. They aren't. These divisions are largely artificial and people move across them all the time.

There's market housing and there's set-aside subsidized housing. Plenty (i.e., the majority) of "low income" people live in market housing, where they compete with people of more means. Even programs like Section 8 are largely market-based and house people in market buildings. And roughly 100% of people of not "low income"--who still are by no means rich--live in market housing. Their housing affordability issues are just as, and sometimes more, pronounced as "low income" individuals.

I fully agree that more needs to be done to add to subsidized, low-income set-aside supply. But this isn't the responsibility of developers any more than feeding poor people is the responsibility of Whole Foods.

For a perfect view of how badly the state (in the general sense, not the Commonwealth) has been dropping the ball on housing affordability, go to Cambridge and cross the bridge over the CR tracks from Alewife to Fresh Pond. On your left you'll see dense 20+ story residential buildings from the last century that house 1000+ Cantabrigians of a variety of income brackets. On your right, directly across Alewife Brook Parkway from these towers, you'll see the new housing stock of today going up: 5-story wood frame buildings targeted at those with upper-middle incomes. The City of Cambridge should be pushing for (and funding, if need be) 20+ story housing there, not dinky little 5-over-1. Instead, they're imposing height and density limits. And this is on the Alewife side of the tracks, where connectivity is good. As long as available sites are limited (by the state) to projects like this, we won't do much to address affordability.
 
Housing is fungible. You talk about housing as if there is "low income housing" and "middle income housing" and "upper income housing" and they are all siloed off from each other. They aren't. These divisions are largely artificial and people move across them all the time.

I agree that housing type is not entirely siloed off but they are not entirely fungible either. To say something is fungible is to assume one type is replaceable with another which in terms of housing is untrue. If I was a low income resident, I cannot replace my $1000/month apartment for a luxury apartment that costs $4000/mo. In addition, if I'm a low income resident with no resource to move to the next income bracket (a scenario that is very likely within those who fall in the low income bracket) I will never be able to afford a luxury apartment.

Yes, housing becomes more fungible for those in the wealthier bracket but becomes less fungible as you move further down and this is a nuance that you seem to be ignoring.

To reiterate my point again, I'm not against the city building luxury towers nor am I saying it is the developer's responsibility to cater to the poor. In fact, my whole point is built on that concept being true. It is because the developers are not responsible for building affordable housing that I am calling the government to require developers to allocate a portion to building affordable housing because it is the government's responsibility to ensure that the city stays affordable. It's my belief that the city has not done enough to mitigate the problem.
 
I agree that housing type is not entirely siloed off but they are not entirely fungible either. To say something is fungible is to assume one type is replaceable with another which in terms of housing is untrue. If I was a low income resident, I cannot replace my $1000/month apartment for a luxury apartment that costs $4000/mo. In addition, if I'm a low income resident with no resource to move to the next income bracket (a scenario that is very likely within those who fall in the low income bracket) I will never be able to afford a luxury apartment.

Yes, housing becomes more fungible for those in the wealthier bracket but becomes less fungible as you move further down and this is a nuance that you seem to be ignoring.

You're being pedantic. Obviously a "low income resident" isn't going to swap over to a $4k/mo apartment. But a young professional in a $1k/mo apartment and his girlfriend in another $1k/mo apartment can move in together in a brand new $2500/mo apartment. And boom, two new $1k/mo apartments are available thanks to construction aimed at the upper-middle class!

If that $2500/mo apartment was never built then there would be fewer housing options available in this scenario for those who can only afford $1k.

You know this, though... And I think we largely agree. So I'll stop quibbling over details...
 
Yeah, that seems like the most likely "solution" - multiple single adults or multiple couples living in an single apartment.

I don't know if people really would be interested in living in say 3 in a 2 BR or 4-5 in a 3 BR, but are they going to have much choice?
 
Yeah, that seems like the most likely "solution" - multiple single adults or multiple couples living in an single apartment.

I don't know if people really would be interested in living in say 3 in a 2 BR or 4-5 in a 3 BR, but are they going to have much choice?

This is exactly what is happening in San Francisco.
 
Yeah, that seems like the most likely "solution" - multiple single adults or multiple couples living in an single apartment.

I don't know if people really would be interested in living in say 3 in a 2 BR or 4-5 in a 3 BR, but are they going to have much choice?

This is exactly what is happening in San Francisco.

This has long been the practice in New York, where the phase "put up a wall" is a common expression in the rental market. I have a number of friends who have lived (or still do) in an apartment with no living room because the living room is used as a bedroom. I know we have a bit of that particularly in Allston and other student-heavy places, but we don't want that to become the new norm throughout the city.
 
This has long been the practice in New York, where the phase "put up a wall" is a common expression in the rental market. I have a number of friends who have lived (or still do) in an apartment with no living room because the living room is used as a bedroom. I know we have a bit of that particularly in Allston and other student-heavy places, but we don't want that to become the new norm throughout the city.

There is a better solution starting to emerge in London, New York and San Francisco -- upscale SRO (single room occupancy). Basically large rooming houses with upscale public amenities. Much more cost effective than an individual apartment but good return for the developer and operator as well due to very high density. Exact model is being worked out, but seems to be spreading.
 
There is a better solution starting to emerge in London, New York and San Francisco -- upscale SRO (single room occupancy). Basically large rooming houses with upscale public amenities. Much more cost effective than an individual apartment but good return for the developer and operator as well due to very high density. Exact model is being worked out, but seems to be spreading.

^ sounds like a dorm for adults.

Indeed. They were quite common throughout history until the postwar era. They are simply making a comeback.
 
A return to norm or regression?

Probably a return to norm. Americans tend to occupy a ridiculous amount of housing space per person versus any other major developed nation. The only country allocating more floor space per person is Australia. Most of Europe lives in about 1/2 the space of the average American.
 
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SROs are not allowed anymore if I recall correctly. Another example of zoning limitations that limits a true market and artificially increases housing costs.
 
Indeed. They were quite common throughout history until the postwar era. They are simply making a comeback.

The city says it has 81 properties that are classified as rooming houses, which are basically this.
 
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