Copley Square Revamp | Back Bay

[ritchiew]

 

[as02155]

This weekend has been amazing - wish we had more of these summer days.

 

[Dimitri71]

 

[MjolnirMan]

Nice to see person enjoying the park! $18.9 million well-spent.

 

[chrisbrat]

Convenient for your aggenda to crop out 10 other people from this shot and also chose the least-populated photo from a collection of six images.

 

[stick n move]

Angle of the full park

Link

 

[MjolnirMan]

Convenient for your aggenda to crop out 10 other people from this shot and also chose the least-populated photo from a collection of six images.

You're talking about the people passing through it, like a sidewalk? This appears to be the only person intentionally IN the park lol

 

[chrisbrat]

It's Copley *Plaza* -- not Copley Park. Plazas are generally passed through with folks eating and socializing along the perimiters. A Plaza (Piaza, Place, Platz, etc.) is generally *all* hardscape, often with a central feature like a fountain or statue, and restaurants/cafes/bars/stores along the perimeter. Copley Plaza ticks most of those boxes.

If you're looking for parks where people sit on grass and read or have picnics etc, there are plenty within walking distance.

 

[MjolnirMan]

It's Copley *Plaza* -- not Copley Park. Plazas are generally passed through with folks eating and socializing along the perimiters. A Plaza (Piaza, Place, Platz, etc.) is generally *all* hardscape, often with a central feature like a fountain or statue, and restaurants/cafes/bars/stores along the perimeter. Copley Plaza ticks most of those boxes.

If you're looking for parks where people sit on grass and read or have picnics etc, there are plenty within walking distance.

Understandable you'd be confused, though, since it's a failure of one!

 

[HenryAlan]

The city can brand it that way if they want to do so, but it is not a park, nor has it ever been one. Sorry that you are allowing a word spoken by somebody else to define the space, despite the evidence before our very eyes.

 

[MjolnirMan]

You're totally right, you know better than the City of Boston and the company it paid $19 million to make a park. Here, I fixed it:

 

[JeffDowntown]

You're totally right, you know better than the City of Boston and the company it paid $19 million to make a park. Here, I fixed it:

View attachment 75264

Sasaki, who did the new design, describes Copley Square as both a park and a plaza. A big reason why everyone is arguing about the use of the space is that it is a very small park, 2.4 acres, that is mostly a plaza, as Sasaki explains.

Building the Future of Copley Square

A critical piece of Boston’s open space network, the park’s revitalization ensures its longevity.

www.sasaki.com

 

[MjolnirMan]

Sasaki, who did the new design, describes Copley Square as both a park and a plaza. A big reason why everyone is arguing about the use of the space is that it is a very small park, 2.4 acres, that is mostly a plaza, as Sasaki explains.

Building the Future of Copley Square

A critical piece of Boston’s open space network, the park’s revitalization ensures its longevity.

www.sasaki.com

Sure, and it seems clear the work of this renovation tilted the balance away from "park" towards "plaza" - and the photos speak for themselves. Bustling during the (twice a week, when it's in season) farmer's market, and I'm sure useful for official car parking during the Marathon and First Night (are we still doing that one?) - but the daily use of an urban park for actual residents is now significantly impeded by the choices of the redesign. Here, I'll repost this photo without cropping at all:

Hilarious. What, was the weather TOO perfect this week?

This reminds me of the talk about City Hall Plaza. If it's so great, why isn't anyone there? Why do the candid photos look suspiciously like it sucks? Why are the comments on random posts about it full of stuff like

I've lived in Boston a long time. I lived in Back Bay and the South End during the 2010s. I caught rays in Copley Square Parklaza many times. It's always sad to see something that was good and enjoyed ruined by bad, overthought urban planning. And just like City Hall Plaza or the MLK statue, you can post endlessly about how great it is, and it still doesn't change reality.

 

[chrisbrat]

It's pretty clear what constitues a "park" and a "plaza." Though I'm enjoying the debate.

Feel free to educate me with scribbled-over MS Paint commentary -- is this a park? It never was a park. For a while there it had park-like elements that ultimately were so destructive and disastrous it required a refresh. So we get what we got (which isn't perfect).

The reason Copley and City Hall fail as plazas (to different degrees) isn't the hardscape -- it's the lack of enclosure and surrounding retail/food/bars. Close off/remove the surrounding streets or otherwise enclose (as with every successful European plaza/piazza) and both would become different stories. It's basic urban planning (first semester for me; common-sense for anyone who's been to Europe) and I don't undersand why Boston is so obtuse about it. These "3/4 plaza-1/4 'park'" rennovations are bound to always fail on some level.

 

[MjolnirMan]

It's pretty clear what constitues a "park" and a "plaza." Though I'm enjoying the debate.

Feel free to educate me with scribbled-over MS Paint commentary -- is this a park? It never was a park. For a while there it had park-like elements that ultimately were so destructive and disastrous it required a refresh. So we get what we got (which isn't perfect).

It has been recognized as a "park" by the NYT, Globe, WBUR, and other publications since at least the 1990s and certainly the last few decades - because that's what it's been. The major issue seems to have been heavy and frequent enjoyment of the green space by human beings leading to logistical challenges to maintain and refresh it by the Boston Parks Dept (not Plaza Dept???) - what a problem to have! If your issue is that your very comfy chair gets worn out because of how much it's appreciated by weary visitors, I dunno if the most sensible move is to destroy it to save yourself the hassle of reupholstering! Or replace it with a big durable rock?

The reason Copley and City Hall fail as plazas (to different degrees) isn't the hardscape -- it's the lack of enclosure and surrounding retail/food/bars. Close off/remove the surrounding streets or otherwise enclose (as with every successful European plaza/piazza) and both would become different stories. It's basic urban planning (first semester for me; common-sense for anyone who's been to Europe) and I don't undersand why Boston is so obtuse about it. These "3/4 plaza-1/4 'park'" rennovations are bound to always fail on some level.

Agreed.

 

[chrisbrat]

It has been recognized as a "park" by the NYT, Globe, WBUR, and other publications since at least the 1990s and certainly the last few decades - because that's what it's been. The major issue seems to have been heavy and frequent enjoyment of the green space by human beings leading to logistical challenges to maintain and refresh it by the Boston Parks Dept (not Plaza Dept???) - what a problem to have! If your issue is that your very comfy chair gets worn out because of how much it's appreciated by weary visitors, I dunno if the most sensible move is to destroy it to save yourself the hassle of reupholstering! Or replace it with a big durable rock?


Agreed.

Agree to respectfully disagree. This area was never meant for a true "park." I've spent many afternoons and early evenings in the new plaza -- having a bite, catching up on emails, texting, reading books -- since it debuted. Great area to do all that. I'm there most weekday afternoons. Trust me -- lots of people eat lunch there. And during market days (or, obviously, Marathon or other event days) it's SWAMPED.

To me it is far more successful than the previous version with trees that could never live, grass areas that were nearly always muddy mess. The last version was nice for its lifespan -- which (30ish years) is pretty good. It needed to change.

I love the Public Garden and Esplanade and Common -- and when that's what I want that's where I go. Copley Plaza (or Park if you feel that is important b/c the NYT described it as such -- fwiw historically it's been "Copley Place") is a showcase/frame and pass-through for Trinity, the BPL, Old South Church, and the Hancock. Accept what it is and always has been and you'll be happier.

 

[Scott]

Just to keep things straight in my mind, for decades hasn't Copley Plaza been a hotel and Copley Place a PoMo development featuring a mall?

 

[JeffDowntown]

Just to keep things straight in my mind, for decades hasn't Copley Plaza been a hotel and Copley Place a PoMo development featuring a mall?

Because this is Boston, you have to process these slowly.

This discussion is about Copley Square, which is also considered a park and a plaza.

But it is not Copley Plaza, which is a hotel, which happens to be located on Copley Square, which is not a square, it is a triangle shaped place.

But it is not Copley Place, which is a PoMo mall, office, and hotel complex, which happens to be located at Copley Square, the park and plaza dual use space.

Which is different than the Park Plaza, which is a hotel, which is located on Park Square, which is also not a square, but also a triangle.....

 

[MjolnirMan]

Because this is Boston, you have to process these slowly.

This discussion is about Copley Square, which is also considered a park and a plaza.

But it is not Copley Plaza, which is a hotel, which happens to be located on Copley Square, which is not a square, it is a triangle shaped place.

But it is not Copley Place, which is a PoMo mall, office, and hotel complex, which happens to be located at Copley Square, the park and plaza dual use space.

Which is different than the Park Plaza, which is a hotel, which is located on Park Square, which is also not a square, but also a triangle.....

Which is nowhere near Park St. MBTA Station, which is named for Park St. on the shortest edge of Boston Common, which is now a centrally-located park, but predates Central Park or even the concept of a public park, and was originally a commons, but was never called Boston Commons.

Agree to respectfully disagree. This area was never meant for a true "park." [...] Accept what it is and always has been and you'll be happier.

Okay, but so here's the thing: it was, indeed, a park. This is insane to argue over. The City of Fahkin Boston calls it a Park to this day. Their Parks Department manages it and paid a company to renovate the Park, who also calls it a Park. For at least a half-century, it was considered a public Park by the entire city. The Boston Globe and WBUR called it a Park in print. Everyone and their mother calls it a Park. I defy you on one of your many lunches there to approach strangers at random and ask them if it's a Park and see if they say yes or no. "Actually, it has always been Copley Piazza! Though more accurately it's Copley Rialto"

You're right that this renovation fundamentally reshapes that, by significantly diminishing the aspects of it that are a Park, in favor of the ones that make it a Plaza. That's my gripe. They changed the Park, ruining it as a Park.

The South End Community Board also seems to have my false memory of people enjoying the now-nonexistent lawn:

 

[shmessy]

It's Copley *Plaza* -- not Copley Park. Plazas are generally passed through with folks eating and socializing along the perimiters. A Plaza (Piaza, Place, Platz, etc.) is generally *all* hardscape, often with a central feature like a fountain or statue, and restaurants/cafes/bars/stores along the perimeter. Copley Plaza ticks most of those boxes.

If you're looking for parks where people sit on grass and read or have picnics etc, there are plenty within walking distance.

In that case, why not put a parking lot on all that unused hard surface area?