Copley Square Revamp | Back Bay

chrisbrat said:
it is often used, but hate away.
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Define "often" compared to how "often" it was used BEFORE closing it for 3 years and $18.9 million in taxpayer spending? Would that be an INCREASE or a DECREASE?

No hate, just dispassionate, fact-based reality. Was 1) three+ years lost usage and 2) $18.9 million spent worth THIS result? I'm open to hearing a case for it. What is the "benefit delta"?
 
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again, i've been living or going to school or working near copley since the '90s. it's not less used than it ever was. if you hate the redesign that's totally valid and fine and i have no dog in the fight. the previous version was falling apart, muddy, trees dying. this version is (imho) an upgrade. but i get that it's fun to hate and be angry, so do you.
 
chrisbrat said:
again, i've been living or going to school or working near copley since the '90s. it's not less used than it ever was. if you hate the redesign that's totally valid and fine and i have no dog in the fight. the previous version was falling apart, muddy, trees dying. this version is (imho) an upgrade. but i get that it's fun to hate and be angry, so do you.
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You seem to keep focusing on emotions about it ('hatred'???). That's deflection.

Once again, it's a very dispassionate and cold reality question - - was the 3 years of being blocked off and $18.9 million in zero-sum city budget money WORTH IT for the delta/benefit of this iteration of the plaza park?

If you stay to the subject and not bring stray to emotions, the conversation will be more informative.

Direct copy and paste of the first #1 post in this thread on Dec 18, 2020 by poster Formfollowsbudget:

"Sasaki is working with the City of Boston and Parks Department to, again, reimagine Copley Square. Here's a Globe article.

The current budget is penciled in at around $4 million, but could grow depending on the programming and design. At $4 million, we can likely expect only some minor changes. Several design concepts will be presented early 2021, and construction will begin in 2022. Public input is being taken now before concepts are fully produced.

Personally, I feel not much needs to be changed. I really like the plaza as is, but new and refreshed pavers and basic infrastructure/maintenance would surely be welcomed. I wonder if the plaza's interface with the streets, or rather, the streets themselves, could be altered somehow. Sasaki is considering what they could do with Dartmouth Street, and the BPL stated they are considering some renovations on the McKim Building, so hopefully something nice can emerge there. Boylston could use some softening/pedestrian enhancements, and nothing too crazy with St. James, in my experience, but it never hurts to add more pedestrian enhancements around a plaza."



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chrisbrat said:
it's not less used than it ever was.
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What is it used for now? What was it used for before? Are they 100% the same thing?
chrisbrat said:
the previous version was falling apart, muddy, trees dying.
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It's been said in this thread and by the City/developer that the muddy conditions and stressed trees were from heavy utilization of the grassy spaces by people (I can find no evidence that vehicles were ever allowed to park on the grass, nor that large booths or tents were set up there). What did the heavy use of those spaces by people entail, and why? Is the same usage happening now?
 
MjolnirMan said:
What is it used for now? What was it used for before? Are they 100% the same thing?

It's been said in this thread and by the City/developer that the muddy conditions and stressed trees were from heavy utilization of the grassy spaces by people (I can find no evidence that vehicles were ever allowed to park on the grass, nor that large booths or tents were set up there). What did the heavy use of those spaces by people entail, and why? Is the same usage happening now?
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Just scroll down the farmer's market Instagram past 2022 or so. That usage is now firmly on the paving. Not too long before then, vendors would semi-regularly drive trucks and vans onto the lawn and paving to offload store their items.
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Plus a couple of additional factors: those large trees that were in tree wells surrounded by paving is still deeply not-good for trees - beyond not enough water getting through, the soil is still being heated and compacted by use of the pavement above. Those large mature trees are now either part of that raised grove area, which supports the decking on fewer point piles, or within much larger mulched beds. Also, the realignment of just where the lawn space is; people used to walk across it from to get to the plaza in front of Trinity, when the farmers market now fronts Dartmouth.
 
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chrisbrat said:
It's Copley *Plaza* -- not Copley Park. Plazas are generally passed through with folks eating and socializing along the perimiters. A Plaza (Piaza, Place, Platz, etc.) is generally *all* hardscape, often with a central feature like a fountain or statue, and restaurants/cafes/bars/stores along the perimeter. Copley Plaza ticks most of those boxes.

If you're looking for parks where people sit on grass and read or have picnics etc, there are plenty within walking distance.
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What? No. Copley Plaza is the hotel. Copley Square or Copley Square Park is the square. I've lived in Boston or its environs for my entire life and I've never heard of anyone refer to the square as "Copley Plaza", only the hotel. In a quick search of the Boston Globe Archive from 1965-2005, the first mention of Copley Square Park was in 1967. A search of Copley Plaza in the same timeframe only yields results for the hotel. Bromley maps dating between 1883 and 1938 simply label the square as Copley Square, with what is today's square bisected by Huntington Ave, with one large triangle closer to Boylston St and a smaller triangle closer to St James Ave. Interestingly, on the 1874 Hopkins Atlas, about half of the large triangle closest to Trinity Church is occupied by "Chemical School - Inst. Tech" with four narrow townhouse plots located on the side closest to Dartmouth St.
 
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I stand (sit) corrected -- as I did a few weeks ago when your points were made by another. *My* point is that the area in between Trinity, the BPL, the hotel, etc. has never historically been a "park" (lush expanses of grass, tons of trees) in any way.
 
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