Crazy Transit Pitches

If a LRV SL tunnel to east Boston and the Airport were to happen, part of the problem I see is how to continue to serve each terminal for pickups. Would it be possible for a LRV to do double duty as an interterminal people mover, in place of the now cancelled MassPort proposed isolated system? I'm only familiar with JFK as far as steel wheel people movers go, and I don't think any currently uses standard LRVs.

I'm imagining almost a bypass to airport for SL3, with SL1 making a terminal loop. Send every other train a different direction around it, maybe keep one or two doing the loop only? Especially in a world where Red-Blue and a Logan people mover exists, I can see lots of trips diverting to the 2/3 seat Airport to MGH and Red rather than the one seat on a SL bus to South. Personally, living in Cambridge I'd stop taking SL to South once Red-Blue opens.

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If a LRV SL tunnel to east Boston and the Airport were to happen, part of the problem I see is how to continue to serve each terminal for pickups. Would it be possible for a LRV to do double duty as an interterminal people mover, in place of the now cancelled MassPort proposed isolated system? I'm only familiar with JFK as far as steel wheel people movers go, and I don't think any currently uses standard LRVs.

I don't think an LRV running in mixed traffic would be suitable. The roads at Logan aren't as bad as they used to be, but they still get messy (especially with infrequent visitors struggling with sometimes-inadequate signage), and it'd essentially be a less flexible version of the SL1 and the Massport shuttle buses. Grade-separating, either elevated like the proposed APM or tunneling (though the latter would be enormously expensive and disruptive) would presumably be possible, though siting a portal might be mildly tricky (probably have to eat either some parking lot or do some road reconfiguration).

The question I have, though, is why would you want to? In order to function as a proper APM replacement, the LRVs would need to serve all terminals, Airport station, and the Rental Car Center, which, much like Massport's shuttle buses, would be annoyingly slow. Cut out Airport and there goes the Blue Line connection (meaning the SL3 equivalent would have to bear more of the load going Blue-Seaport/South). Cut out the Rental Car Center and now Massport's back to needing buses. Though it'd add a forced transfer, a Massport APM feeding a combined Green/Blue station at Airport (or, without the harbor crossing, complementing the SL1 in one form or another) would be considerably more efficient
 
A post-NSRL crayon in which we use the Grand Junction to send Worcester Line trains to North Station, pairing them with Providence Line trains on the other edge.

This does a few things:
  • Resolves some of the North/South NSRL balance issues, since Worcester and Providence are two of the heaviest hitters demand-wise. Right now they're both South side lines, so this creates a heavy South side demand imbalance. Turning Worcester into a North line, however, helps balance out the Providence demand.
  • The potential for through-running Amtrak! In a speculative future with real American HSR, the only realistic HSR routes will be Boston - NYC/DC and Boston - Chicago. North of Boston is too thinly settled to have HSR-worthy demand, so a South-to-West through-running pattern could make sense. If Amtrak runs trains through Boston, it could also relocate its yard to somewhere less expensive than downtown.
  • Both Providence AND Worcester riders get a one-seat to Kendall AND Back Bay, in addition to the downtown stations
    Screenshot 2022-03-30 10.56.54 PM.png
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A post-NSRL crayon in which we use the Grand Junction to send Worcester Line trains to North Station, pairing them with Providence Line trains on the other edge.

This does a few things:
  • Resolves some of the North/South NSRL balance issues, since Worcester and Providence are two of the heaviest hitters demand-wise. Right now they're both South side lines, so this creates a heavy South side demand imbalance. Turning Worcester into a North line, however, helps balance out the Providence demand.
  • The potential for through-running Amtrak! In a speculative future with real American HSR, the only realistic HSR routes will be Boston - NYC/DC and Boston - Chicago. North of Boston is too thinly settled to have HSR-worthy demand, so a South-to-West through-running pattern could make sense. If Amtrak runs trains through Boston, it could also relocate its yard to somewhere less expensive than downtown.
  • Both Providence AND Worcester riders get a one-seat to Kendall AND Back Bay, in addition to the downtown stationsView attachment 22945.
Never happen! Cambridge would explode
 
An interesting concept, and I like the Kendall connection. However, aside from the fatal blockers with running frequent service over the Grand Junction, this means that Worcester riders for South Station and Back Bay have to ride the long way around. Lowell and Newburyport/Rockport are good enough matches for Worcester and Providence.
 
It might be illustrative also to look at the number of curves you have in that alignment and try to estimate how long this alignment would take to traverse with mainline trains. Remember, South Station-Back Bay itself takes 5 minutes; some of this is due to the yard speed restrictions approaching South Station, but not all of it is. That loop is 6.5 miles long; for comparison, that's on par with North Station-Belmont or North Station-Wyoming Hill, which each take about 15 minutes (albeit with some yard speed restrictions at the end... still, Wyoming Hill-Reading itself is only 5.5 miles and takes even longer at 19 minutes, with 4 intermediate stops).

There are a number of practical reasons why this wouldn't work, but I think it's worth considering how useful it would be under the best circumstances.
 
I'm also assuming this would kill any Grand Junction GL proposals. Nice concept though.

While it's technically possible to have LRT(sort of) and RR sharing tracks with time-separation like they do in New Jersey, it'd likely be completely infeasible here. For one thing, do Green and the CR even use the same wheel profiles? River Line in NJ doesn't have to run into an extant LRT system like Green-on-GJ would. Moreover, even getting a time-separation agreement would probably require CSX's approval given that they have freight trackage rights over the GJ (even if they aren't using them at the moment) and they might balk at that (at least without a MassDOT quid-pro-quo). All that's basically moot anyway, given that the nature of temporal separation means that one of the modes (presumably RR) would be consigned to operating only when demand was low (probably overnight), so it wouldn't even be worth running service. Taking GJ off the RR mode is feasible, sharing it is not, so, yes, CR via GJ would kill GL over GJ, and vice-versa.

The potential for through-running Amtrak! In a speculative future with real American HSR, the only realistic HSR routes will be Boston - NYC/DC and Boston - Chicago. North of Boston is too thinly settled to have HSR-worthy demand, so a South-to-West through-running pattern could make sense.

What does this mean? Even assuming some very generous average speeds for this Crazy Transit Pitches unlimited-money HSR service, BOS-CHI would still take something like 5-7 hours (realistically considerably more), whereas a flight takes 2-3; even if you factor in getting to Logan, security, baggage, and the atrociously-long trip in from O'Hare, you're probably talking a total travel time not far off from the absolute-maximum possible for HSR...except that HSR would cost a bazillion dollars just to bring into existence whereas the aviation infrastructure already exists. That's not Crazy Transit Pitches, it's the God Mode thread. Even leaving that to one side, Amtrak would almost certainly prefer to run any Chicago HSR service to its main terminal at South Station; there's no need for the GJ for a service that, if it ever existed, would inevitably have Boston as its terminal.

If Amtrak runs trains through Boston, it could also relocate its yard to somewhere less expensive than downtown.

Amtrak owns its Southampton Street yard, it'd take the mother of all offers to pry them loose from there (does make me wonder if Amtrak is even legally subject to state-level eminent domain laws). They're never going to have any meaningful interest in running the Acelas through an NSRL, so it's not very likely that they'd be interested in moving their operations to a less-convenient location, at least absent significant incentives from the state to do so. That also has no bearing on the GJ, because it'd only ever come up in an NSRL world.

GL is a lot more do-able than CR, both technically and politically

As a full-scale service, I agree with you. As an "add-on", I'm not so sure. CR-over-GJ wouldn't require that much work (in comparison to GL-over-GJ). I could envision Worcester-to-North Station via GJ making a comeback (and getting done this time) as a Beacon Hill political gift to Worcester should the next administration have a neo-Tim Murray wanting something like that. Political baubles (cough*SCR*cough) are, of course, occasionally immune to questions about sensibility, utility, and cost-effectiveness. As something more than a political trinket, though, CR-over-GJ's hard-fail on the cost-benefit analysis compared to GL-over-GJ would absolutely hamstring it.
 
As a full-scale service, I agree with you. As an "add-on", I'm not so sure. CR-over-GJ wouldn't require that much work (in comparison to GL-over-GJ). I could envision Worcester-to-North Station via GJ making a comeback (and getting done this time) as a Beacon Hill political gift to Worcester should the next administration have a neo-Tim Murray wanting something like that. Political baubles (cough*SCR*cough) are, of course, occasionally immune to questions about sensibility, utility, and cost-effectiveness. As something more than a political trinket, though, CR-over-GJ's hard-fail on the cost-benefit analysis compared to GL-over-GJ would absolutely hamstring it.

Not Worcester, Harvard. Especially given the MBTA's newfound hatred of all things overhead wires, I can't see Green happening anytime soon. CR might be good enough for Harvard's needs.
 
Not Worcester, Harvard. Especially given the MBTA's newfound hatred of all things overhead wires, I can't see Green happening anytime soon. CR might be good enough for Harvard's needs.
The MBTA hates trackless trolley wires on streets, but not LRV wires on a dedicated ROW.
 
^ Exactly. The claim -- dubious as it may be -- is that the problem arises when the T owns the wires but not the ground underneath the wires, which, I think, they say makes it harder to maintain because they have to negotiate for access. Which, I mean. That seems like it should be a solvable problem. But. Who knows.
 
While it's technically possible to have LRT(sort of) and RR sharing tracks with time-separation like they do in New Jersey, it'd likely be completely infeasible here. For one thing, do Green and the CR even use the same wheel profiles? River Line in NJ doesn't have to run into an extant LRT system like Green-on-GJ would. Moreover, even getting a time-separation agreement would probably require CSX's approval given that they have freight trackage rights over the GJ (even if they aren't using them at the moment) and they might balk at that (at least without a MassDOT quid-pro-quo). All that's basically moot anyway, given that the nature of temporal separation means that one of the modes (presumably RR) would be consigned to operating only when demand was low (probably overnight), so it wouldn't even be worth running service. Taking GJ off the RR mode is feasible, sharing it is not, so, yes, CR via GJ would kill GL over GJ, and vice-versa.



What does this mean? Even assuming some very generous average speeds for this Crazy Transit Pitches unlimited-money HSR service, BOS-CHI would still take something like 5-7 hours (realistically considerably more), whereas a flight takes 2-3; even if you factor in getting to Logan, security, baggage, and the atrociously-long trip in from O'Hare, you're probably talking a total travel time not far off from the absolute-maximum possible for HSR...except that HSR would cost a bazillion dollars just to bring into existence whereas the aviation infrastructure already exists. That's not Crazy Transit Pitches, it's the God Mode thread. Even leaving that to one side, Amtrak would almost certainly prefer to run any Chicago HSR service to its main terminal at South Station; there's no need for the GJ for a service that, if it ever existed, would inevitably have Boston as its terminal.



Amtrak owns its Southampton Street yard, it'd take the mother of all offers to pry them loose from there (does make me wonder if Amtrak is even legally subject to state-level eminent domain laws). They're never going to have any meaningful interest in running the Acelas through an NSRL, so it's not very likely that they'd be interested in moving their operations to a less-convenient location, at least absent significant incentives from the state to do so. That also has no bearing on the GJ, because it'd only ever come up in an NSRL world.



As a full-scale service, I agree with you. As an "add-on", I'm not so sure. CR-over-GJ wouldn't require that much work (in comparison to GL-over-GJ). I could envision Worcester-to-North Station via GJ making a comeback (and getting done this time) as a Beacon Hill political gift to Worcester should the next administration have a neo-Tim Murray wanting something like that. Political baubles (cough*SCR*cough) are, of course, occasionally immune to questions about sensibility, utility, and cost-effectiveness. As something more than a political trinket, though, CR-over-GJ's hard-fail on the cost-benefit analysis compared to GL-over-GJ would absolutely hamstring it.
So, you're going to drop gates on Mass Ave, Main St and Binney for 5ish minutes out of...15? 30?(both ways,BTW) Please provide me with what you are smoking, if you would. And where will you put the 800ft platform? It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to grade separate any of these streets with CR. LRT is the only way to go, and cheaper to boot.
 
So, you're going to drop gates on Mass Ave, Main St and Binney for 5ish minutes out of...15? 30?(both ways,BTW) Please provide me with what you are smoking, if you would. And where will you put the 800ft platform? It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to grade separate any of these streets with CR. LRT is the only way to go, and cheaper to boot.

In the building just south of Main Street. Put the gates down as you let people off and make the rest of the trip up to North Station.
 
So, you're going to drop gates on Mass Ave, Main St and Binney for 5ish minutes out of...15? 30?(both ways,BTW) Please provide me with what you are smoking, if you would. And where will you put the 800ft platform? It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to grade separate any of these streets with CR. LRT is the only way to go, and cheaper to boot.

Did you mean to reply to my post? The gist of my commentary on CR-over-GJ was that I thought it would only ever happen if it was a political favor, with the implication that it was so born-broken that it couldn't possibly be done for any other (i.e. sensible) reason, in part because of the well-discussed limitations like those you're referencing.
 
Think of it more as a marketing bullet point for West Station residents. That also keeps the ability to do train moves and freight if necessary. And doesn't have any overhead wires.

In the end maybe they will leave it as is.
 
Why is it physically impossible? What's to stop you from digging a trench from Cambridge St to the southern end of Vassar St? You could cap it with a bike path and Cantabrigians would love it. I'm not saying it would be simple but it doesn't seem like it'd be impossible.
 

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