Downtown/Financial district infill and small developments

[stick n move]

I was looking for a downtown/financial district infill thread and realized we surprisingly dont have one. The north end infill thread started being used as a downtown thread for lack of a better option. Even that thread appears to have been made as a different thread and then turned into a north end thread on page 3. I figure its appropriate to finally make a dedicated downtown/financial district thread.

Anyways:

Downtown Boston housing revival: Empty office space to be converted into apartments​

Boston Pinnacle Properties is calling for 15 residential apartment units – 10 studios and 5 one-bedrooms – across four floors above Mediterranean Grill Boston and Dave’s Instant Shoe Repair at 281 Franklin St., in the Financial District. (Matt Stone/Boston Herald)


“A developer looking to place 15 housing units above a Mediterranean grill and shoe repair shop downtown will be seeking approval from the city’s planning agency next month.

This is the first application up for consideration under a pilot program aimed at converting vacant office space into residential use, primarily in and around downtown.

The Boston Planning & Development Agency is scheduled to vote on the proposal from Boston Pinnacle Properties in March, jumpstarting the “Downtown Residential Conversion Incentive Pilot Program,” an agency spokesperson told the Herald this week.

Boston Pinnacle Properties is calling for 15 residential apartment units — 10 studios and 5 one-bedrooms — across four floors above Mediterranean Grill Boston and Dave’s Instant Shoe Repair at 281 Franklin St., in the Financial District.

If approved, construction is slated to start this spring at the 1878 brick and sandstone mercantile Henry Gustavus Dorr Building. Three of the units would be income restricted, meeting a key requirement in the program that 20% of units match what officials consider “inclusionary zoning.”

The total scope of the work is expected to cost nearly $1.6 million, attorney George Morancy wrote in the application, adding the project is “fully compliant with the requirements of the Boston Zoning Code.”

In total, the BPDA has received four applications since October that would create 170 housing units by converting eight high vacancy Class B and C office buildings, according to officials. Candidates range from small local property owners to larger real estate brokers and developers, they said.

The largest project seeks 98 residential units out of three interconnected office buildings on Devonshire and Washington streets. The two others are calling for 24 units at 2 and 5 Longfellow Place and 33 units at 1 and 10 Emerson Place.

Applicants must meet inclusionary zoning requirements, green energy standards and start construction by October 2025. Applications are open until June….”

https://news.google.com/articles/CB...cGFydG1lbnRzL2FtcC8?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en

 

[sm89]

The two others are calling for 24 units at 2 and 5 Longfellow Place and 33 units at 1 and 10 Emerson Place.

I cannot figure out where these ones could possibly be. Streetview doesn't show anything that looks workable?

 

[DZH22]

I was looking for a downtown/financial district infill thread and realized we surprisingly dont have one.

Do we really need one though? Any "small/infill" new build in that area would be an awful waste of space. If anything, maybe this thread should change into an all-purpose conversion thread?

 

[Tango]

Maybe they are going to convert the first floors from office/clinical space to apartments? I believe that MGH has some office space in these buildings.

 

[DBM]

"In total, the BPDA has received four applications since October that would create 170 housing units by converting eight high vacancy Class B and C office buildings, according to officials. Candidates range from small local property owners to larger real estate brokers and developers, they said."

Eight. There have to be at least 300 or so legit office towers within the CBD? To think of the incessant yapping on the sidelines by commenters about this phenomenon, over the past year-plus--and the net result is going to be barely five percent of Downtown's office towers converted, despite massive government inducements.

f course, a lot of people predicted this--I just find it anticlimactic (and bemusing) given how intense & passionate the comment sections would get on this topic, every time the Globe rolled out another story on this...

 

[bigpicture7]

"In total, the BPDA has received four applications since October that would create 170 housing units by converting eight high vacancy Class B and C office buildings, according to officials. Candidates range from small local property owners to larger real estate brokers and developers, they said."

Eight. There have to be at least 300 or so legit office towers within the CBD? To think of the incessant yapping on the sidelines by commenters about this phenomenon, over the past year-plus--and the net result is going to be barely five percent of Downtown's office towers converted, despite massive government inducements.

f course, a lot of people predicted this--I just find it anticlimactic (and bemusing) given how intense & passionate the comment sections would get on this topic, every time the Globe rolled out another story on this...

Interest rates are still high and a lot of people are either waiting this out till rates improve to start projects, or can't get financing. I bet we'd see more developers bite at this if it were a low interest rate environment.

 

[-anarresti-]

I toured a few different spaces in some of the early 20th century office buildings centered around Washington St, Arch St, Milk St, Devonshire St, etc. a few months ago as part of a relocation effort at my company.

All seemed deserted. These are the places that in a more favorable interest rate environment would be slam dunks for conversion. Hopefully we will see more of it in the coming years.

 

[bigpicture7]

Do we really need one though? Any "small/infill" new build in that area would be an awful waste of space. If anything, maybe this thread should change into an all-purpose conversion thread?

So, every downtown skyscraper needs to have at least two full-height party walls so that other new skyscrapers can be placed directly abutting them, forming one giant landscraper that consumes all of downtown?

In seriousness,@stick n move formed this thread to account for the fact that there are many historic buildings throughout downtown that are subject to the City's incentive program to convert existing structures to residential. That program does not incentivize leveling existing buildings to build entirely new structures. There will inevitably be some small-building redevelopments downtown as part of that program, so whether you agree with the policy or not, there will likely be a use for this thread.

 

[sm89]

Do we really need one though? Any "small/infill" new build in that area would be an awful waste of space. If anything, maybe this thread should change into an all-purpose conversion thread?

I think this is a useful thread. I get that you think that small downtown projects might not be an efficient use of space, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[DZH22]

So, every downtown skyscraper needs to have at least two full-height party walls so that other new skyscrapers can be placed directly abutting them, forming one giant landscraper that consumes all of downtown?

In seriousness,@stick n move formed this thread to account for the fact that there are many historic buildings throughout downtown that are subject to the City's incentive program to convert existing structures to residential. That program does not incentivize leveling existing buildings to build entirely new structures. There will inevitably be some small-building redevelopments downtown as part of that program, so whether you agree with the policy or not, there will likely be a use for this thread.

I think this is a useful thread. I get that you think that small downtown projects might not be an efficient use of space, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Neither of you seems to understand my point. I view "infill and small developments" as a "new build" thread. I can't imagine too many "new builds" in the financial district or downtown that would qualify as "infill" or a "small development." Anything new downtown is typically going to be built bigger and would warrant its own thread.

If everything in here is just going to be a renovation or conversion of an already existing building, then the thread name should change to reflect that.

 

[bigpicture7]

Neither of you seems to understand my point. I view "infill and small developments" as a "new build" thread. I can't imagine too many "new builds" in the financial district or downtown that would qualify as "infill" or a "small development." Anything new downtown is typically going to be built bigger and would warrant its own thread.

If everything in here is just going to be a renovation or conversion of an already existing building, then the thread name should change to reflect that.

DZ, we've routinely reported on renovations and conversions in "infill threads." I agree that for the FiDi, the proportion is likely to be almost entirely renovations and minimal new small developments, but I would guess Stick was just adhering the the naming convention used for the other neighborhoods. @stick n move could nonetheless consider adding a descriptive modifier/parenthesis to the title. The reason I am a fan of this thread is that the "North End / Downtown Infill..." one had been used for content in this area in the past, and that one is even more of a stretch...

 

[curcuas]

"In total, the BPDA has received four applications since October that would create 170 housing units by converting eight high vacancy Class B and C office buildings, according to officials. Candidates range from small local property owners to larger real estate brokers and developers, they said."

Eight. There have to be at least 300 or so legit office towers within the CBD? To think of the incessant yapping on the sidelines by commenters about this phenomenon, over the past year-plus--and the net result is going to be barely five percent of Downtown's office towers converted, despite massive government inducements.

f course, a lot of people predicted this--I just find it anticlimactic (and bemusing) given how intense & passionate the comment sections would get on this topic, every time the Globe rolled out another story on this...

Strongly agree. Added to this, the immediate incentive of your property taxes falling by 60% from conversion (besides other incentives) is a good reason not to wait for interest rates to drop.

 

[bigpicture7]

Strongly agree. Added to this, the immediate incentive of your property taxes falling by 60% from conversion (besides other incentives) is a good reason not to wait for interest rates to drop.

Strongly agree with what?
Moreover, your added point (which I disagree with) contracts the behavior that DBM appears to be observing.

The reason I disagree with your added point is that, for the buildings that are readily convert-able to housing, most are in such rough shape that they probably have crap for tax valuations in the first place. While there may be some tax savings due to the residential conversion, smaller tax rate x spiffy new residential building condition is not a slam-dunk-tax-decrease relative to: higher tax rate x crappy, derelict, vacant early 20th-c office building.

Reality:
-1970s and newer large floor plate office towers are hugely challenging residential conversions for which redevelopment is a many-years-long risky project, toward which developers might struggle to get financing in this high interest rate environment even if they wanted to pursue it.
-Older, smaller, derelict buildings are more of a solid pursuit for residential conversion, yet, assuming the building is paid off and has a low tax valuation in the first place, might not give developers enough reason to press ahead prior to rates coming down.

 

[DBM]

Moreover, your added point (which I disagree with) contracts the behavior that DBM appears to be observing.

I was only trying to contrast the immense quantities of hype/blather/argumentation spewed in comment sections of media stories about this conversion program, vs. the cold reality which is that, if, when the window closes on this program on May 31--very soon!--and only 5% of all Downtown office towers get entered into the conversion pipeline, it will have an incredibly negligible impact on the Downtown ecoystem. I mean, really, just 200 or so new residents, in a larger Downtown (if you include Chinatown, North End, Beacon Hill, Leather District) that already has tens of thousands--that will. not. move. the. needle.--economically, culturally, politically, otherwise.

Now, you mentioned "people waiting this out" until interest rates improve, which seems totally logical--except... that May 31st deadline is when the 29 year tax abatement incentive expires. Had you forgotten about that to begin with--or were you aware, but a significant plunge in interest rates post-May 31st could make the math pencil-out such that losing that 29-year abatement would not be a deal-killer?

 

[bigpicture7]

I was only trying to contrast the immense quantities of hype/blather/argumentation spewed in comment sections of media stories about this conversion program, vs. the cold reality which is that, if, when the window closes on this program on May 31--very soon!--and only 5% of all Downtown office towers get entered into the conversion pipeline, it will have an incredibly negligible impact on the Downtown ecoystem. I mean, really, just 200 or so new residents, in a larger Downtown (if you include Chinatown, North End, Beacon Hill, Leather District) that already has tens of thousands--that will. not. move. the. needle.--economically, culturally, politically, otherwise.

Now, you mentioned "people waiting this out" until interest rates improve, which seems totally logical--except... that May 31st deadline is when the 29 year tax abatement incentive expires. Had you forgotten about that to begin with--or were you aware, but a significant plunge in interest rates post-May 31st could make the math pencil-out such that losing that 29-year abatement would not be a deal-killer?

Oh I was absolutely aware that the tax benefit was going to expire sometime soon (i.e. in a more more proximal timeframe than we'd expect rates to drop) and didn't even bother to look it up because a) as I have explained,I sincerely believe that the absolutely horrendous lending environment we are in at the moment dramatically outweighs the tax benefit, especially because of the types of buildings we are talking about, and, b) the city can extend that or create a similar incentive in the future if they want. Think about it: why would the city bother to announce an extension early? -- If they did that, given the interest rate environment, then even less would get done soon because everyone would simply hold out. The city and the developers both know that practically nothing is getting financed these days, and so both are waiting.

Seriously: newly initiated construction has slowed to an absolute crawl (relatively speaking) all around these days. Take your pick, residential, commercial, multifamily; it is all stalled. Everything is stalled because financing sucks. It would take the tax savings associated with a large, highly valued building to make this work, but those are technically infeasible for residential conversion. So I guess that I agree with you that peoples' dreams of lots of large skyscrapers getting turned into apartments is never going to happen, but I never expected that or cared about that in the first place.

I continue to feel that in a favorable rate environment with plentiful financing, LOTS of craphole old < 8 story office buildings downtown are going to get turned into residential. That's what this has always been about anyway.

 

[shmessy]

Do we really need one though? Any "small/infill" new build in that area would be an awful waste of space. If anything, maybe this thread should change into an all-purpose conversion thread?

I respectfully disagree 100%.

The biggest problem is Downtown Ghost Town - - lots of emptying tall buildings that look good in coffee table book pics -- but, since the advent of Zoom and wfh, are turning a once vibrant downtown into an increasingly dystopian (and dangerous re crime) box of shells.

The shells do not make a city. Humans flowing around (and more 24/7 rather than 9 to 5) make a vibrant city. Downtown is the biggest problem in modern day Boston. This thread is probably one of the most crucial for the city in 2024.

.

 

[shmessy]

Neither of you seems to understand my point. I view "infill and small developments" as a "new build" thread. I can't imagine too many "new builds" in the financial district or downtown that would qualify as "infill" or a "small development." Anything new downtown is typically going to be built bigger and would warrant its own thread.

If everything in here is just going to be a renovation or conversion of an already existing building, then the thread name should change to reflect that.

"Infill" doesn't merely mean tall walls, DZ. It can also mean turning an empty building and neighborhood into a lively, dynamic, economically resuscitated one. Turning a Ghost Downtown into a LIVE downtown would be the greatest urban planning development in Boston since the (lowrise) Seaport.

A successful "new downtown" would be one filled with people and energy and a growing economy. Not necessarily with empty 60 story office building monoliths (most of which cannot be converted to residential or lab). I'm all for building 60 story residential - - here's to the finance environment becoming more hospitable to that.

 

[DZH22]

"Infill" doesn't merely mean tall walls, DZ. It can also mean turning an empty building and neighborhood into a lively, dynamic, economically resuscitated one. Turning a Ghost Downtown into a LIVE downtown would be the greatest urban planning development in Boston since the (lowrise) Seaport.

A successful "new downtown" would be one filled with people and energy and a growing economy. Not necessarily with empty 60 story office building monoliths (most of which cannot be converted to residential or lab). I'm all for building 60 story residential - - here's to the finance environment becoming more hospitable to that.

Who said anything about 60 story buildings? As far as I'm concerned, if it's already there it's just a renovation. If it's a new build, but under about 8 stories and generally unremarkable it's "infill." Everything else warrants its own thread. In this case, I can't imagine any "5-over-1" type of new builds downtown, so everything would either be a renovation or get its own thread. Thus, IMO "infill and small developments" isn't really the appropriate NAMING CONVENTION for a thread that's likely to be 100% renovations.

 

[shmessy]

Who said anything about 60 story buildings? As far as I'm concerned, if it's already there it's just a renovation. If it's a new build, but under about 8 stories and generally unremarkable it's "infill." Everything else warrants its own thread. In this case, I can't imagine any "5-over-1" type of new builds downtown, so everything would either be a renovation or get its own thread. Thus, IMO "infill and small developments" isn't really the appropriate NAMING CONVENTION for a thread that's likely to be 100% renovations.

This is a vitally important subject to many of us here who love vibrant cities.

You appreciate pics of big buildings taken from miles away. No one is going to big-foot you and tell the site to eliminate those, or to boorishly give their critique of them. Many people like them and, simillarly this thread has gotten positive posts in just a couple of days, it seems many people here are interested in this subject.

We have MANY great and relevant to urban life threads of renovations - that Edison Plant in Southie, the Ropewalk in Charlestown, the Storage thing in Cambridge, the Commonwealth Pier in the Seaport etc. I have no idea what you are getting at. These are the TRUE urban-making projects as opposed to the ghostifying, yet impressively tall(?) emptying skyscrapers. Cities are about LIFE and DYNAMISM, not some empty monoliths. Boston's downtown district is the poster child for this. And it is damn important.

 

[DZH22]

...I have no idea what you are getting at....

This much is clear.