Electrifying the Dot/Rox Bus Network

BostonUrbEx

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https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=217656314107067401485.0004cb3161aff308d71b9&msa=0

Unfortunately it looks like Google may have split the lines on to two different "pages", so you might not be able to see the whole thing... :(

But essentially all bus routes which significantly run concurrent together are electrified. I marked which routes would have off-wire segments. These bus routes will use buses which charge their batteries while running with wire. Basically, wherever a route runs by itself, with no other electrified line for more than 3/4 a mile, it will change over to batteries for that stretch.

Power can be drawn off from the Red Line, Orange Line, and Mattappan Line to reduce cost of more substations.
 
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=217656314107067401485.0004cb3161aff308d71b9&msa=0

Unfortunately it looks like Google may have split the lines on to two different "pages", so you might not be able to see the whole thing... :(

But essentially all bus routes which significantly run concurrent together are electrified. I marked which routes would have off-wire segments. These bus routes will use buses which charge their batteries while running with wire. Basically, wherever a route runs by itself, with no other electrified line for more than 3/4 a mile, it will change over to batteries for that stretch.

Power can be drawn off from the Red Line, Orange Line, and Mattappan Line to reduce cost of more substations.

Cool idea. I have to ask though, does it go against the grain in Metro Boston? In the last year, Belmont was seeking to get Cambridge and Watertown's influence in getting rid of the Trolley Buses and the overhead pantograph rails and replace them with normal polluting buses.

* http://belmont.patch.com/articles/watertown-officials-weighs-belmonts-electric-buses-proposal
 
Cool idea. I have to ask though, does it go against the grain in Metro Boston? In the last year, Belmont was seeking to get Cambridge and Watertown's influence in getting rid of the Trolley Buses and the overhead pantograph rails and replace them with normal polluting buses.

* http://belmont.patch.com/articles/watertown-officials-weighs-belmonts-electric-buses-proposal

So you think trackless trolleys aren't polluting? Where do you think the power comes from? Running vehicles from a distant power plant guarantees transmission losses - that's wasted energy for every mile traveled. Today's natural gas buses are far more environmentally friendly than the old diesels, and gas costs have fallen through the floor. Do you want to have money for system maintenance? Buy natural gas.
 
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=217656314107067401485.0004cb3161aff308d71b9&msa=0

Unfortunately it looks like Google may have split the lines on to two different "pages", so you might not be able to see the whole thing... :(

But essentially all bus routes which significantly run concurrent together are electrified. I marked which routes would have off-wire segments. These bus routes will use buses which charge their batteries while running with wire. Basically, wherever a route runs by itself, with no other electrified line for more than 3/4 a mile, it will change over to batteries for that stretch.

Power can be drawn off from the Red Line, Orange Line, and Mattappan Line to reduce cost of more substations.

I'm not sure this is a good idea, unless the trackless trollies up in Cambridge are capable of running off-wire on charged batteries. Otherwise, this means brand new technology and brand new rolling stock.

And, we all know how well the last instance of 'brand new technology/rolling stock' sent to this general area is working out for them.

I'd rather see investment into rectifying the injustice that is the Washington Street Silver Line first, electrifying the Fairmount Line second (EMUs, at least, could be used on the Providence Line as well, and if there is to be a serious change over from diesel trains to electric trains by the MBTA, there's no better place to start demonstrating that they know what they're doing than Fairmount), and extending the Silver Line (as a streetcar or full LRT) from Dudley down Warren Street to Blue Hill Avenue to a new terminus at Morton Street Station (or Blue Hill Avenue Station if it gets completed) third.

Even an EMU train making the loop from South Station to Readville every 20 minutes and a Silver Line streetcar between Dudley and (?) would be a dramatic impact (and improvement) to those areas, never mind going for any kind of extension.
 
My understanding is that the trackless trolleys in Cambridge exist for two reasons: 1) to reduce fumes in the Harvard bus tunnel (which can't handle CNG buses at all), and 2) left-hand doors (which is tied into 1). Since neither of these constraints exist in Dorchester or Roxbury, I'm not sure how helpful a trackless would be...

In general I think trackless trolleys are really only useful for a number of niche situations; I don't know how much they are on a large scale, since they don't really have capacity advantages over buses.
So you think trackless trolleys aren't polluting? Where do you think the power comes from? Running vehicles from a distant power plant guarantees transmission losses - that's wasted energy for every mile traveled. Today's natural gas buses are far more environmentally friendly than the old diesels, and gas costs have fallen through the floor. Do you want to have money for system maintenance? Buy natural gas.
There's something to be said for not polluting the area where the buses are directly running, though.
 
So you think trackless trolleys aren't polluting? Where do you think the power comes from? Running vehicles from a distant power plant guarantees transmission losses - that's wasted energy for every mile traveled. Today's natural gas buses are far more environmentally friendly than the old diesels, and gas costs have fallen through the floor. Do you want to have money for system maintenance? Buy natural gas.

Before I begin, I'm on my phone so there will be many spelling errors, sorry...


Electric motors are more effecient than their petrolium counterparts, in both performance and effecency. Any power lost in transmission is more then made up by this. That's why diesel trains are actually diesel-electric. They carrry around their own power plant instead of pulling power off wires. Go ride the commuter rail pulling out of back bay, then any electric amtrak train. Even on the old ones you can feel the power and rate of acceleration is vastly superior to the Ts diesels. And the amtrak trains are typically longer and heavier as well.

Second, saying that we should buy more individual polluting engines instead of getting power from a centralized source is ludacris. The life span of a bus is what, 15 years? The rubber gaskets and other parts will start to fail after 6-10 years, requiring expensive replacement or rebuilding of the engine. Or in the Ts case the problem will be defered, meaning there will be a less effecent polluying underperforming vehicle on the road. The trackless trolleys on the other hand are pertty much the same bulletproof pile of inverters that is sitting on the side platform at boylston.

The lifespan of a power plant on the other hand is about the same as your average human being, if not longer. You can upgrade the power plant to reduce pollution, place it in a location where it has the least effect on humans, and eventually replace it with a technology that creates no pollution. Natural gas can power power plants too ya know, without the need to ban it from the bus tunnels and build expensive maintence and refuling facilities.

Also, I believe the T has moved away from CNG, I'm 90% sure I heard the last procurement was all petrolium.



As for the topic, I don't like the idea of battery TTs, unless its just to power it in an emergency or something similar. I would like to see more of the heavy use lines (all the silver line, 66, 1, etc) upgraded to TTs. Performance aside, it conveys a greater sence of permancy since there is physical infastructure, as well as being a percived upgrade over a standard bus. It also is halfway to bringing rail back, should the T ever change its mindset about street-running trolleys.

I would rather see them upgrade the routes out of harvard first, then the terminals of those lines. (So 66 and SL get electric to dudley, then you upgrade the lines out of there)
 
I don't think the 1 should be upgraded to a trackless trolley, but that's mostly because I'm still holding out for a hero the Mass. Ave. Subway.

Now, onto the reason why I'm posting today. Instead of or in addition to stringing up trolley wires all over Dorchester and Roxbury, we could probably generate a much more immediate and positive impact by re-striping for bus lanes down what I'm interpreting to be the 'spine' of the Dot/Rox bus network - like so.

If the Silver Line Buses ever get axed in favor of real light rail, this could be a springboard to bring that rail further south, too.
 
I'm not sure this is a good idea, unless the trackless trollies up in Cambridge are capable of running off-wire on charged batteries. Otherwise, this means brand new technology and brand new rolling stock.

And, we all know how well the last instance of 'brand new technology/rolling stock' sent to this general area is working out for them.

I'd rather see investment into rectifying the injustice that is the Washington Street Silver Line first, electrifying the Fairmount Line second (EMUs, at least, could be used on the Providence Line as well, and if there is to be a serious change over from diesel trains to electric trains by the MBTA, there's no better place to start demonstrating that they know what they're doing than Fairmount), and extending the Silver Line (as a streetcar or full LRT) from Dudley down Warren Street to Blue Hill Avenue to a new terminus at Morton Street Station (or Blue Hill Avenue Station if it gets completed) third.

Even an EMU train making the loop from South Station to Readville every 20 minutes and a Silver Line streetcar between Dudley and (?) would be a dramatic impact (and improvement) to those areas, never mind going for any kind of extension.

The MBTA's TT's don't have batteries for off-wire excursions, but San Francisco's do. SF has a much more extensive TT network, though, with parallel streets wired up. Makes it much easier for them to re-route down a few cross streets to the next set of wires when there's a problem or blockage.

I really don't think we need any brand new TT installs. Hybrid and dual-mode technology's come far enough along that we ought to be able to buy some off-shelf "Prius" buses in a few years that can totally idle on battery and regenerative braking. Or even get a manual switch-off when going through semi-enclosed terminals. Or the Harvard tunnel, so you can have all Harvard buses board in one place instead of having them scattered in 3 locations (lower tunnel's rather underutilized and really ought to take the 66, 68, and 69 with only the wrong-direction facing 1 staying on the surface). Idling buses or stalled traffic are the biggest sources of diesel pollution, when it's just collecting in place. I'm sure one of the reasons they've soured on CNG's is that hybrids are only a few years from scaling up in battery power from autos to reliably drive buses and will do pretty much the same at much lower price point. Simply too much infrastructure to be stringing up new wires for a bus mode. They need to be putting that energy into streetcars where streetcars are needed (Washington, Urban Ring, JP Center)...not Yellow Line routes where there's very minor operational difference or rider experience difference.


I would support judicious expansion of the Cambridge TT network. Definitely the 71 to Newton Corner so it can connect with those routes and a future commuter rail station there. And the 77A to Alewife whenever they build the busways to Mass Ave. so the Cambridge side is doubled up with an Alewife-turning route like the 79 from Arlington. And I'd also support taking a larger order of Silver Line dual-modes articulateds next time they have to make a vehicle purchase and assigning them to the 77 with an engine switch at Route 16.
 
I don't see TTs along the current bus routes doing anything that isn't being done already by the current buses.

By contrast, Green Line to Dudley extended all the way down Blue Hill Ave and tied into the current High Speed Line to terminate at Ashmont - that would really transform the city. That would be 8.5 miles from the portal around Tufts Med Center (by contrast, B line terminates 3.5 miles from Kenmore portal)
 
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I don't see TTs along the current bus routes doing anything that isn't being done already by the current buses.

By contrast, Green Line to Dudley extended all the way down Blue Hill Ave and tied into the current High Speed Line to terminate at Ashmont - that would really transform the city. That would be 8.5 miles from the portal around Tufts Med Center (by contrast, B line terminates 3.5 miles from Kenmore portal)

And then you kiss Red Line to 128 goodbye, since the Green Line just ate the only way to get Red Line stock to Mattapan without getting our Little Dig on (about 1 mile in tunnel, Ashmont-Milton down Dot Ave.)

Now, whether you think Red Line to 128 or even Red Line to Mattapan is a worthwhile project could color your judgment in this matter. I would like to see Route 128 Station gain some legitimacy as a New Carrolton-style stop, and sending our Orange Line there involves a shitload of disruptive digging under the NEC mainline, so...

(On the other hand, I'd much rather see a Dot Ave. Tunnel than Red Line through the graveyard. I'm torn.)
 
And then you kiss Red Line to 128 goodbye, since the Green Line just ate the only way to get Red Line stock to Mattapan without getting our Little Dig on (about 1 mile in tunnel, Ashmont-Milton down Dot Ave.)

Now, whether you think Red Line to 128 or even Red Line to Mattapan is a worthwhile project could color your judgment in this matter. I would like to see Route 128 Station gain some legitimacy as a New Carrolton-style stop, and sending our Orange Line there involves a shitload of disruptive digging under the NEC mainline, so...

(On the other hand, I'd much rather see a Dot Ave. Tunnel than Red Line through the graveyard. I'm torn.)


I don't think there's any way you could do an 8-mile-long light rail branch. If you think the B is hard to keep schedule...ye gads. What they should have done had they not been so stupidly shortsighted 25 years ago is relocate the Orange Line off the El as planned, demolished the El from Dudley to Forest Hills and Chinatown to the Pike, then rehabbed the structure and stations from Northampton to Dudley and connected it to the Green Line via the Tremont Tunnel. Then you could have your Mattapan branch and several others. Unfortunately the political players at the time were not thinking transit enhancement...they were vying for bragging rights about tearing down the eyesore none of the local residents thought was an eyesore.


Why is Red Line through the cemetery a big deal? The ROW is already grade separated, fenced off, with an overpass for the cemetery. It makes no bloody difference what mode is traveling through it. Not even noise levels of a RL train vs. a trolley because you can still hear trains screeching around both trolley and heavy rail loops at Ashmont all hours of the day from the cemetery. The only reason Mattapan wasn't converted to heavy rail decades ago is because the Milton NIMBY's think the extra transfer is a deterrent to "undesireables" and a one-seat ride would...I don't know...send a battalion of hoodlums marching down Central Ave. They're so provincial they won't even let both banks of the Neponset be trail-connected because of that bullshit. That and all hundred people a day who board at Valley Rd. and Capen St. combined would have a sad.


I've said it before...it's a River St. subway or deep-bore cut from Mattapan station under property lines to reach the Fairmount Line where it's wide enough for 4 tracks. I don't think you can get rapid transit to 128 on the NEC because of the wetlands. There is not enough land on the NEC or Franklinto do >3 tracks without destroying protected ponds and streams or the same Neponset reservation that helped kill the SW Expressway. But you can get close enough by way of the grade-separated Dedham Branch to Dedham Center, 1.5 miles from 128. Hell, it would reach more population and development that way than forever-vaporware and forever-being-downsized Westwood Landing.
 
I don't think there's any way you could do an 8-mile-long light rail branch. If you think the B is hard to keep schedule...ye gads. What they should have done had they not been so stupidly shortsighted 25 years ago is relocate the Orange Line off the El as planned, demolished the El from Dudley to Forest Hills and Chinatown to the Pike, then rehabbed the structure and stations from Northampton to Dudley and connected it to the Green Line via the Tremont Tunnel. Then you could have your Mattapan branch and several others. Unfortunately the political players at the time were not thinking transit enhancement...they were vying for bragging rights about tearing down the eyesore none of the local residents thought was an eyesore.

Uh... what? My understanding was that the entire El was, in fact, a huge eyesore that everyone hated, and Northampton to Dudley was more or less the worst part of it. Everything I can find says the locals wanted it gone, 100% gone, not 'well these parts aren't that bad, keep them.'

Why is Red Line through the cemetery a big deal? The ROW is already grade separated, fenced off, with an overpass for the cemetery. It makes no bloody difference what mode is traveling through it. Not even noise levels of a RL train vs. a trolley because you can still hear trains screeching around both trolley and heavy rail loops at Ashmont all hours of the day from the cemetery. The only reason Mattapan wasn't converted to heavy rail decades ago is because the Milton NIMBY's think the extra transfer is a deterrent to "undesireables" and a one-seat ride would...I don't know...send a battalion of hoodlums marching down Central Ave. They're so provincial they won't even let both banks of the Neponset be trail-connected because of that bullshit. That and all hundred people a day who board at Valley Rd. and Capen St. combined would have a sad.

Looking at it in Google Maps, I'm not seeing an overpass there. It looks like the Mattapan Line goes straight through the cemetery at 'ground level' as it were.

Now, first of all, running an active transit line through (or even over) a burial ground is something that I find to be inherently quite disturbing. (Aside - Milton has successfully deterred me from going there. There isn't enough money in the world that you could pay me to ride the Mattapan Line.) Maybe that sounds NIMBYish of me. I genuinely feel like the Mattapan Line shouldn't be going through that graveyard, and I'd be eager to see the Line closed and rerouted.

Noise has nothing to do with it... it's the fact that there are dead bodies literally buried in the ground over which that line is running. That's really creepy, and I'm not okay with it.

And that's even before you get construction / maintenance involved - ripping up the existing tracks to get electrified Red Line tracks in there, then you figure those tracks are going to need semi-regular maintenance...

Yeah, sorry if it sounds NIMBYish of me, but I don't want the Red Line going through that cemetery. Or any cemetery. If you're going to be deep-boring under property lines from Mattapan to the Fairmount Line, you can deep-bore under property lines from Ashmont to Milton. It's a straight shot down Dorchester Avenue.

I've said it before...it's a River St. subway or deep-bore cut from Mattapan station under property lines to reach the Fairmount Line where it's wide enough for 4 tracks. I don't think you can get rapid transit to 128 on the NEC because of the wetlands. There is not enough land on the NEC or Franklinto do >3 tracks without destroying protected ponds and streams or the same Neponset reservation that helped kill the SW Expressway. But you can get close enough by way of the grade-separated Dedham Branch to Dedham Center, 1.5 miles from 128. Hell, it would reach more population and development that way than forever-vaporware and forever-being-downsized Westwood Landing.

Forget about Dedham. They're perfectly happy to keep themselves in a transit black hole, so I say let them. I don't think Westwood Landing/Station/University Station/Whatever it's called now is ever going to actually be built. My focus is on turning Route 128 Station into the 'end' of the Rapid Transit network, akin to New Carrolton for Metrorail. That's why it has to go to Route 128 Station.
 
What's wrong with the Mattapan line? It's a fun little ride.

If you're afraid of cemeteries, well... next time you ride the Green Line between Park St and Gov't Center ... look to your left and to your right....

Happy Halloween!
 
What's wrong with the Mattapan line? It's a fun little ride.

If you're afraid of cemeteries, well... next time you ride the Green Line between Park St and Gov't Center ... look to your left and to your right....

Happy Halloween!

I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU SO MUCH

Even that's not as bad as the Mattapan Line, as the Green Line passes next to those burial grounds (instead of through them) and as far as I know, no bodies were ever buried above or beneath or around the tunnel.

I've never actually needed to ride the Green Line between Park and Gov't Center, anyway. Thanks to you, I'm probably going out of my way to take the Orange Line instead if I ever do.

Brr.
 
Uh... what? My understanding was that the entire El was, in fact, a huge eyesore that everyone hated, and Northampton to Dudley was more or less the worst part of it. Everything I can find says the locals wanted it gone, 100% gone, not 'well these parts aren't that bad, keep them.'

No...that's a myth that "everyone" wanted it gone. There were some very loud community leaders toeing that line and claiming to speak for everyone. Pols, prospective developers, even neighborhood organizers and influential pastors who wanted to play armchair urban renewal planner at sweeping out the bars and bodegas for classier tenants. There was extremely little community outreach, no opportunities for dissent...it was "hustled" past the neighborhood. Why do you think transit on the Washington St. corridor has been so very very controversial for the last 25 years and wrapped up in so many thorny economic, racial, environmental equity issues? A majority of the residents affected by the El didn't want it gone at all, but were never given a chance to speak up about it. Maybe if this happened today there would've been an "Occupy the El" drumbeat, but mid-80's Roxbury was a very different and less empowered world. They got fucked over by those who claimed to speak for them, and they knew it immediately.


Looking at it in Google Maps, I'm not seeing an overpass there. It looks like the Mattapan Line goes straight through the cemetery at 'ground level' as it were.

Overpass...right there: http://goo.gl/maps/T4MbT. It's 100% grade separated from the cemetery. Always has been.

Now, first of all, running an active transit line through (or even over) a burial ground is something that I find to be inherently quite disturbing. (Aside - Milton has successfully deterred me from going there. There isn't enough money in the world that you could pay me to ride the Mattapan Line.) Maybe that sounds NIMBYish of me. I genuinely feel like the Mattapan Line shouldn't be going through that graveyard, and I'd be eager to see the Line closed and rerouted.

Noise has nothing to do with it... it's the fact that there are dead bodies literally buried in the ground over which that line is running. That's really creepy, and I'm not okay with it.

Ummm...the Old Colony RR Shawmut Branch was built through it exactly 1 year after the cemetery opened and had its first burial. It predates 99.9% or something of the bodies buried there. Everyone eternally resting within a hundred yards of the tracks was alive to ride a train through there. That's an utterly ridiculous non-thing to get creeped out about. And a batshit thing to advocate abandoning or megaproject-relocating infrastructure that's been coexisting quite nicely with the dead for 140 years thank you.

Forget about Dedham. They're perfectly happy to keep themselves in a transit black hole, so I say let them. I don't think Westwood Landing/Station/University Station/Whatever it's called now is ever going to actually be built. My focus is on turning Route 128 Station into the 'end' of the Rapid Transit network, akin to New Carrolton for Metrorail. That's why it has to go to Route 128 Station.

It CAN'T go to 128 without destroying Neponset waterways. The NEC ROW is 3 tracks wide. With some ultra-careful repositioning maybe it could squeeze 4...tightly, at a speed penalty with inadequate air resistance clearance to pass a slow train at high speeds. And with inadequate separation between RR and rapid transit tracks to even fit so much as the required fencing between them, rendering that moot. Not to mention Amtrak controls the tracks and will never ever ever allow the NEC's capacity to get permanently maimed by giving away 2 track berths. And you will never get an EIS approved that requires rechanneling the river or the ponds it feeds on an officially designated protected environmental reservation.

No woulda / coulda / shoulda / if-only's here...physically and legally impossible. The days when they could consider fucking around with that ROW to graft 6 lanes of I-95 next to it are long gone.
 
Why do you think transit on the Washington St. corridor has been so very very controversial for the last 25 years and wrapped up in so many thorny economic, racial, environmental equity issues? A majority of the residents affected by the El didn't want it gone at all, but were never given a chance to speak up about it. Maybe if this happened today there would've been an "Occupy the El" drumbeat, but mid-80's Roxbury was a very different and less empowered world. They got fucked over by those who claimed to speak for them, and they knew it immediately.

Well, to start with, there should've been light rail tracks up and down Washington from the portal to Dudley to ?, ready for immediate activation the second the El went kaput and the tunnel incline could be realigned to those tracks. That didn't happen, of course, and in fact, nobody had any goddamn plan for how to replace the El service. That was problem one.

Problem two is that Dorchester/Roxbury isn't a very wealthy or advantaged area of Boston, as you've said, and our esteemed Mayor seems unwilling to ever go to bat for them despite (or perhaps because) his being born and raised and currently residing in nearby Hyde Park. So, yeah, they routinely take it up the ass. That's a damn shame.

I still have only your word that anyone actually wanted to keep the thing, against what you're claiming as a myth that everyone wanted it gone. I'll buy that a lot of people might have regretted ripping it down once it became clear that they weren't going to get real rapid transit back after that, but at the time, it was or seemed to be a damn near a unanimous consensus - 'this thing has got to go, go, go.'

And, if I was to go poll 100 random people in Dudley Square as to whether or not they'd support a new El being built down Washington Street, I'm pretty sure that I'd get a damn near unanimous 'hell no.' This despite that it's 2012 and we've gotten much better at building Els that don't end up being ugly eyesores.

Overpass...right there: http://goo.gl/maps/T4MbT. It's 100% grade separated from the cemetery. Always has been.

Yeah, that's a cemetery path bridged over the tracks, which are still running on top of the burial ground. That's not a grade separated ROW at all.

Ummm...the Old Colony RR Shawmut Branch was built through it exactly 1 year after the cemetery opened and had its first burial. It predates 99.9% or something of the bodies buried there. Everyone eternally resting within a hundred yards of the tracks was alive to ride a train through there. That's an utterly ridiculous non-thing to get creeped out about. And a batshit thing to advocate abandoning or megaproject-relocating infrastructure that's been coexisting quite nicely with the dead for 140 years thank you.

Yes, that is the problem! They built it through the cemetery. The cemetery was not reconfigured around the ROW, they punched straight through. Maybe no bodies had to move - but it's still all the same burial ground, and it's certainly kind of A Big Thing.

Especially when, as I said, Red Line tracks are a fair bit more high maintenance than Mattapan Line tracks and electrifying for the Red Line by installing a third rail isn't an easy or minor job no matter where the tracks you're converting are located. That they happen to be located in a cemetery is the kind of thing that's bound to cause problems.

Bring on the mega-project to move the thing. The tunnel boring machines are already going to be present and good to go because they're necessary for Mattapan-outbound, and for the same amount of problems you cause by insisting that 'keeping it running through the cemetery is just fine to do,' we can instead relocate it out of the cemetery and not have to deal with the implications of running mass transit over (presumably) consecrated burial grounds.

It CAN'T go to 128 without destroying Neponset waterways. The NEC ROW is 3 tracks wide. With some ultra-careful repositioning maybe it could squeeze 4...tightly, at a speed penalty with inadequate air resistance clearance to pass a slow train at high speeds. And with inadequate separation between RR and rapid transit tracks to even fit so much as the required fencing between them, rendering that moot. Not to mention Amtrak controls the tracks and will never ever ever allow the NEC's capacity to get permanently maimed by giving away 2 track berths. And you will never get an EIS approved that requires rechanneling the river or the ponds it feeds on an officially designated protected environmental reservation.

No woulda / coulda / shoulda / if-only's here...physically and legally impossible. The days when they could consider fucking around with that ROW to graft 6 lanes of I-95 next to it are long gone.

I said it had to go to 128, I never said it had to take the NEC to get there.

Although, since we are talking Els, even if it did there's always the option of running the Red Line/Orange Line in a viaduct built on top of the NEC, or vice versa. That'd be pretty neat and unique to Greater Boston, too - and elevating the NEC to sit on top of surface-level Rapid Transit might make it easier to expand to 4 tracks. Instead of having to widen the ROW itself, you just configure the bridge to have all its supports inside the existing ROW and convince the DEP that the added shadows from the viaduct aren't going to cause problems.
 
I wonder, though, would there be very much advantage to take the Red Line from Route 128 via Mattapan and Ashmont then for someone to just stay on the highway and drive to Quincy Adams?
 
I wonder, though, would there be very much advantage to take the Red Line from Route 128 via Mattapan and Ashmont then for someone to just stay on the highway and drive to Quincy Adams?

The idea is that, if you send all these lines into Route 128 Station, then it gains legitimacy as a central transfer point - so people coming in or going out of Dorchester/Roxbury/Mattapan/Hyde Park on Amtrak can take a short RT ride into Route 128 and pick up the train there, or residents can go from say Hyde Park to Mattapan with one transfer at Route 128.

Otherwise, you have to ride all the way into downtown and then ride all the way back down on a different line.

It'd be silly to ride the Red Line all the way in from Route 128 Station to South Station. That's not the point.
 
I still have only your word that anyone actually wanted to keep the thing, against what you're claiming as a myth that everyone wanted it gone. I'll buy that a lot of people might have regretted ripping it down once it became clear that they weren't going to get real rapid transit back after that, but at the time, it was or seemed to be a damn near a unanimous consensus - 'this thing has got to go, go, go.'

And, if I was to go poll 100 random people in Dudley Square as to whether or not they'd support a new El being built down Washington Street, I'm pretty sure that I'd get a damn near unanimous 'hell no.' This despite that it's 2012 and we've gotten much better at building Els that don't end up being ugly eyesores.

It's been discussed ad nauseam on RR.net pretty much since the site's inception, and some of the more knowledgeable forum members and BSRA members who were there for the whole decades-long saga have written at length about it. It was nowhere near a black-and-white issue with "unanimous consent". That's simplistic framing. It was murky, very complicated, very contentious, and touched a lot of socio-economic and neighborhood fabric third rails. Roxbury didn't just wake up the day after the last girder was torn down and said "oh shit, we've made a terrible mistake"...it was controversial when proposed with the highway, controversial when being built, and that much more controversial when it became clear that they had bupkis in the works for "equal or better replacement". It was not nearly a strong enough majority to fight back against the pressure, but "unanimous consent" is a total misrepresentation of what the neighborhood went through.

The El was part of the neighborhood fabric. It was just there. Residents did not resent it. There was not decades of building public discontent to tear it down. Structurally...it wasn't even in bad condition because BERy built it twice as strong as it needed to be to last twice as long as it needed to (esp. the original Chinatown-Dudley segment). The stations weren't kept up all that well but it was not the decaying, rust-raining, speed-restricted deferred maintenance pit its Charlestown counterpart was at the end. Don't conflate that with NYC's Els in the 70's and 80's during the MTA's cesspit era.

Urban renewalists and wannabe urban renewalists inside and outside the neighborhood drove it. Both inside and outside the neighborhood. It was not citizen-driven. Why would inner-city citizens with no other transit options be advocating for transit loss? They knew damn well no replacement option would ever be as good as fully grade-separated heavy rail through the heart of the corridor.


Yeah, that's a cemetery path bridged over the tracks, which are still running on top of the burial ground. That's not a grade separated ROW at all.

What is your definition of grade separation? You can't access the fenced-off tracks by walking through the cemetery. The cemetery road is bridged over it instead of requiring a grade crossing. That's the dictionary definition of grade separation. It is.

Yes, that is the problem! They built it through the cemetery. The cemetery was not reconfigured around the ROW, they punched straight through. Maybe no bodies had to move - but it's still all the same burial ground, and it's certainly kind of A Big Thing.

Yes, the cemetery WAS configured around the ROW: http://www.cedargrovecemetery.org/history/index.htm. 1 year after opening the cemetery they negotiated an easement with Old Colony RR through the middle of the then-empty land in exchange for putting a station (the current stop) there. Only the Milton St./Adams St. corner of the cemetery was even laid out at the time the deal was struck. The entire area the ROW bisects had to be drained of Neponset swamp and landscaped before a single body was buried there. They can thank the RR and Cedar Grove station for increasing the land value and the value of the burial plots enough to have the money to expand the cemetery.

The tracks predate the adjacent burial ground.
The tracks predate the adjacent burial ground.
The tracks predate the adjacent burial ground.

That is historical record. Ranting about it doesn't change the historical record. Find another cause because nothing was ever "desecrated".

Especially when, as I said, Red Line tracks are a fair bit more high maintenance than Mattapan Line tracks and electrifying for the Red Line by installing a third rail isn't an easy or minor job no matter where the tracks you're converting are located. That they happen to be located in a cemetery is the kind of thing that's bound to cause problems.

Bring on the mega-project to move the thing. The tunnel boring machines are already going to be present and good to go because they're necessary for Mattapan-outbound, and for the same amount of problems you cause by insisting that 'keeping it running through the cemetery is just fine to do,' we can instead relocate it out of the cemetery and not have to deal with the implications of running mass transit over (presumably) consecrated burial grounds.

I've said this before: one person's aesthetic OCD is no reason to build a megaproject. Seriously...step back from this enough to ask yourself how you are ever going to achieve consensus for these insanely complicated finesse jobs over WELL-PERFORMING existing transit corridors. There is at least 80 years of historical consensus that Red Line conversion to Mattapan is a palatable proposal. Maybe never critical-mass, but it's there and always has been. Nobody has ever ever ever proposed relocated it because of the frickin' cemetery whose land the tracks predate.

And what makes you think the Mattapan Line isn't maintained? There are maintenance-of-way crews out there every day inspecting and working the sides of the tracks next to the cemetery. The NTSB doesn't allow service to begin for the day without an early-AM inspection for track obstructions. They're out overnight. They do brush pickup, regular wire inspections on hi-rail pickup trucks, blowing leaves off the tracks to keep the wheels from slipping when wet, snow plowing in winter. Just because it's trolley-grade tracks vs. rapid transit-grade tracks doesn't mean T crews aren't there disturbing the dearly departed on the other side.

And yes...it is non-disruptive to do rapid transit through there. Replace ties, lay the same kind of welded rail that the D line was upgraded to for the Type 8's, firm up any weak spots in the railbed, signalize (which they'll likely have to do anyway if modern LRV's go out there), and switch the underground power cables from overhead feed to third rail feed. That's it. Nothing gets touched on the ROW footprint. The curve in the cemetery is less sharp than the one on the Ashmont Branch before Fields Corner. The major work is upgrading the power feed at Ashmont, grade separation at Central Ave. and Capen, and new station construction at Central Ave./Milton and upgraded Mattapan. Not a ROW makeover.

Granted it was a different era, but it took 1 weekend to convert the East Boston tunnel from trolley to heavy rail, and 1 year to convert the Riverside Line from commuter rail to trolley. It's not rocket science. They don't even have to shut down the trolleys while installing the third rail infrastructure...only when Central Ave. and Capen grade separation construction begins.



I said it had to go to 128, I never said it had to take the NEC to get there.

Although, since we are talking Els, even if it did there's always the option of running the Red Line/Orange Line in a viaduct built on top of the NEC, or vice versa. That'd be pretty neat and unique to Greater Boston, too - and elevating the NEC to sit on top of surface-level Rapid Transit might make it easier to expand to 4 tracks. Instead of having to widen the ROW itself, you just configure the bridge to have all its supports inside the existing ROW and convince the DEP that the added shadows from the viaduct aren't going to cause problems.

And how do you swing that with the 25 ft.+ tall overhead towers? That's one hella tall El requiring very high and strong girders to span 3 tracks underneath, and a very tough EIS in itself for laying the pilings at the edges of the ROW. It's still significant wetlands impacts that won't get approved. Practically speaking there is no way to fit commuter rail and rapid transit to 128 at Westwood or Dedham Corporate. But, really, do those destinations need 4-minute headways for their relative lack of density? The solution is getting 20-25 minute headways on the Fairmount Line with EMU's and terminating at Westwood with the expansion space on the east side for 2 additional turnout platforms. That doesn't mess with NEC headways at all with only 1.5 miles of 3-track shared running space from Fairmount junction to 128 turnout on EMU equipment rated 90 MPH. That's practical.

Don't forget...this was studied when the Orange Line was considered as an either/or on the Needham Line or NEC. Although at that time nobody thought Amtrak and commuter rail would ever need more than 2 tracks. The ridership projections just didn't wash on the Hyde Park alignment like it did through Rozzie and West Roxbury because it missed too many bus transfers and the densest part of Rozzie, and the Mt. Hope intermediate stop was too light. The 128 destination was even worse. Dedham Ctr. did study out with excellent ridership, moreso than either route's 128 stop. But the planners wanted 128-or-bust so the W. Rox-Dedham jog was never the T's favorite.

I do think Red paralleling Fairmount to Readville would bring the ridership to 3 consecutive stops. I think that's worth building some distant day via Mattapan even if it terminates at Readville. The yard space alone would be a big boon to headways on Red and further expansion of the line up north, and they could redevelop Codman Yard at Ashmont into something better. But I do think Dedham Ctr. via the Dedham Branch would knock the socks off the rapid transit ridership at Westwood or Dedham Corporate. The density is orders of magnitude better, the Mall is there for TOD and parking, and ex-Route 1 is a straight shot from 128. If you got to Readville in the first place it would be cheap on a well-buffered and grade separated ROW (better than the old Orange proposal), and...if that's the only non-nightmare EIS...quite likely the only choice for even sniffing rapid transit to 128 on the Braintree-Needham quadrant. So, yeah, process of environmental elimination perks that one up in a hurry.
 
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